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Jidmah wrote:
Would you care if I did draw one? No. Did you fail to spot sarcasm? Yes.
If there were any hint of you accepting anything other than your own opinion, I might actually go through the trouble of making the picture, even though I wasn't serious about it in the first place.
However, as all you do is being unfriendly and belittling anyone with a different opinion, there really isn't much point in it.

I actually belittled the opinions (being objective), rather than belittle the person (personal). It was just some people having too high an ego and refusing to accept the fact that they were indeed wrong.
If it's sarcasm, then I am not interested in them, and you ve have just admitted that you are trolling.

Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, you said some stuff about points and equipment. If you add a battlewagon without upgrades but filled with nobz to a list of battlewagons, you increase your target saturation, even though you are missing at least a deff rolla and a big shoota to make that battlewagon efficient.

Which is why I mentioned upgrading the wagon JUST enough for it to do its job. MAN.... are you reading?

Jidmah wrote:In the same way, deff dreads add target saturation to a kan wall. Both deff dreads and kanz are shot at by the exact same weapons, and your opponent can't possibly kill all the kanz before the deff dreads reach close combat. Whether you sunk way too much points in either unit has absolutely no bearing on the amount of target saturation, but only on the efficiency of your army.

Like I have just said. the 20 points, together with point savings somewhere else, could very well buy you ANOTHER target of similar type, and increase the NUMBER of your "targets". Seriously, this isn't hard to understand.

Jidmah wrote:
How do DCCW or shootas change what guns are going to shoot it? A dread with a burna is more efficient than a dread loades with CCW, we already agreed on that. However, this has no impact at all on when your opponent is going to shoot it with what weapons. No matter it's loadout, a deff dread stays a unit your opponent does not want to reach close combat, while never being more dangerous at range than kanz.

I m not saying it does. BUt as I have said, target saturation isn't about just the selection of your opponent's weapons. The quantity/number of your targets plays a part too. So wasting point IS going to affect target saturation simply because it takes away point which you could have otherwise use to buy 1 MORE target (greater quantity).

Jidmah wrote:I'd also like to point out that you keep dodging the question of explaining what you think target saturation is, like a little child who got caught lying.

Erm, are you blind??




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BeRzErKeR wrote:
Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.

I agree that the poor decisions of your opponents definitely do not help to reinforce my argument. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.

Im fine with sacrificing some GHs and speeders to take down a wagon, leave your boys stranded and slogging, and then torrent them with mass missiles. I ve said that before already.

BeRzErKeR wrote:And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks.

And how does this support your stand that the Dreads are a good complement to the rest of your army (in terms of target saturation), when even boys are doing the job? So why not I take more boys than the dread for target saturation then?

But back to the main point of discussion : Is your Dread a good complement to your wagons in terms of target saturation? Isn't the answer no? (Except if you play against nice opponents who will actually shoot Lascs into AV14s. and uses ordnance for anti tank, even when they know the odds are against them).

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Now we get into the realm of comparing experience again. I can't provide any math here; all I can say is that, in my experience, people commonly do fire both lascannons and ordnance weapons at my Battlewagons, as well as at my Deff Dreads. So, yes, my Deff Dreads are spreading their fire further out, forcing them to make choices. That's what target saturation is.

I agree that the poor decisions of your opponents definitely do not help to reinforce my argument. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Pretty much any vehicle that fires at my Battlewagons, with the sole exception of long-ranged artillery, is within charge range next turn; remember, 28". I don't have to '[chase] them down forever', they get one shot and then they get charged. I'm fine with that.

Im fine with sacrificing some GHs and speeders to take down a wagon, leave your boys stranded and slogging, and then torrent them with mass missiles. I've said that before already.

Then we both get what we want! Hurray!

The more decisions I force my opponent to make, the higher the chances that one or more of them won't be optimal. Even slim chances are worth taking, in that regard; same principle as torrent-of-fire shooting on Terminators. Make them roll enough dice, eventually they'll roll some 1s. Make them pick enough targets, eventually they'll pick wrong. It doesn't happen often, at least not against good players, but it does certainly happen.

In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:And yes; if your opponent is relying mainly on ML for anti-armor use (pretty dumb opponent, but that's another point entirely. ), then Boyz can and do provide target saturation for your armor. If they're shooting frag at infantry, they're not shooting krak at tanks.

And how does this support your stand that the Dreads are a good complement to the rest of your army (in terms of target saturation), when even boys are doing the job? So why not I take more boys than the dread for target saturation then?

But back to the main point of discussion : Is your Dread a good complement to your wagons in terms of target saturation? Isn't the answer no? (Except if you play against nice opponents who will actually shoot Lascs into AV14s. and uses ordnance for anti tank, even when they know the odds are against them).

I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.

About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.

So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.

So in short; yes, by drawing away all the lesser weapons from my wagons, the Deff Dreads do perform a valuable function. And sometimes they'll attract melta fire too, depending on the situation, which is all the better.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The more decisions I force my opponent to make, the higher the chances that one or more of them won't be optimal. Even slim chances are worth taking, in that regard; same principle as torrent-of-fire shooting on Terminators. Make them roll enough dice, eventually they'll roll some 1s. Make them pick enough targets, eventually they'll pick wrong. It doesn't happen often, at least not against good players, but it does certainly happen.

I don't understand how your comment here relates to my melta vs your wagon example. In every game, I have to make decisions, don't I? I can't be doing nothing and passing the turn. So what is it you are driving at? And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.

I don't know how you get 24". 6" move + 6" run over the course of 2 turns.? And also, with the wall of rhinos, how do you advance without dealing with the rhinos first or making a huge detour?

BeRzErKeR wrote:I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.

Not true? 15 kraks kills a Dread on average but 15 frags don't kill 20 boys on average.

BeRzErKeR wrote:About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.

You said it yourself. The opponent will be forced to shoot missile into AV14 despite poor odds. That in itself is an aspect of target saturation. Just like spamming nothing but 180 boys on the board, forcing your opponent to shoot lascannons into boys even though it's inefficient.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.

So end up the missiles and meltas each do what there are best at. since odds are that s8 won't do anything meaningful to the wagon anyway.
Yes, your opponent splits his fire - Missiles at Dread, Meltas at Wagon. Your dread has successfully done ALMOST (key word being almost, not completely) nothing to draw efficient fire away from the wagon.

BeRzErKeR wrote:So in short; yes, by drawing away all the lesser weapons from my wagons, the Deff Dreads do perform a valuable function. And sometimes they'll attract melta fire too, depending on the situation, which is all the better.

If they draw away the LESSER weapons FROM your wagons, then NO - they do not perform a valuable function.

If they draw melta away, then YES.

To BeRzErKeR : hey, maybe I am the only one , but I am also interested about any way to use efficiently Deffdread with BW !
( because everybody say I shouldn't, and also because I like their look)

I won't go into all your tactics & mathhammer discussion since I have close to 0 experience, but
- DDred main weakness are "Slow" + "Must CC" and the solution you propose is the target saturation with BW + KFF protection .
- maybe you can also try to force you opponent to come to you (though I have no idea how. Could be possible in objective-base game?). Or your experience says it is not possible ?
- maybe, adding buggies /koptas / kommandos or Stormboys in the list could also help ? The idea is to bring as many cheap ( or moderately cheap) & fast units in contact with the opponent at turn 1 or 2. He will have no other choice than turning its guns on them (so more target saturation). Of course these units will attack everything - except the paladins unit.

BTW, do Paladins have strong shooting capability ?

Isseyfaran wrote:I don't understand how your comment here relates to my melta vs your wagon example. In every game, I have to make decisions, don't I? I can't be doing nothing and passing the turn. So what is it you are driving at? And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.

If I've got nothing but BWs on the table, there's hardly a decision to be made; shoot everything at the BWs, one at a time, until they die. If there's Dreads and BWs , it takes a bit more thought.

Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:In addition, please note that you're NOT '[leaving my] boyz stranded and slogging in the middle of nowhere', you're leaving them on foot one or at most two turns away from assaulting you; Boyz with Ghazzy's Waagh! have an 18" assault range, so even if you're in a tank backed up against the board edge you have to kill them before they've advanced ~24" or they'll reach you in one turn; and 24" is passed in one turn's movement..So now that's another unit you have to kill; instead of the BW, you have to divert fire to kill the Boyz, which is easier but does still spread your weaponry out. Yes, you're making progress, but you've still got problems.

I don't know how you get 24". 6" move + 6" run over the course of 2 turns.? And also, with the wall of rhinos, how do you advance without dealing with the rhinos first or making a huge detour?

12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.

The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake. If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons, if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I take the Dread over more Boyz because the Dread is harder to kill for the points, that's why. Boyz can be whittled down; the Dread is either non-functional or fully functional, and it's quite difficult to make it non-functional.

Not true? 15 kraks kills a Dread on average but 15 frags don't kill 20 boys on average.

Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:About target saturation; well, consider if I didn't have the Dreads, if I'd taken another BW instead and put Boyz or something inside it. In that case, all those weapons WOULD be shooting at the Battlewagons; after all, they have nothing else to shoot at, and poor odds are still better than nothing. So then, in addition to dealing with meltas, my BWs would have to deal with missiles, lascannons, S10 Guard ordnance, etc., etc. And this is a game of dice; at any point, any of those shots could easily get lucky and explode one of my BWs, which is a bad thing.

You said it yourself. The opponent will be forced to shoot missile into AV14 despite poor odds. That in itself is an aspect of target saturation. Just like spamming nothing but 180 boys on the board, forcing your opponent to shoot lascannons into boys even though it's inefficient.

Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:So instead, I give all that stuff something that's slightly more appealing to shoot at, but still unlikely to die. Now I get the best of both worlds; all those extra weapons that would otherwise be rolling dice at my wagons and potentially doing damage are instead rolling dice against something else. Yes, their odds of doing important damage are better against the Dreads; but I don't care about the Dreads as much as the wagons, if for no other reason than that they aren't as expensive.

Or maybe my opponent ignore the Deff Dreads as just distractions, and points all his weapons at the wagons. Well, then I'll lose 3 of them on the way over. . . but by way of compensation I have two Dreads in assault alongside Ghazzy and a squad of Nobz, who are each nearly as killy as Ghazghkull and literally immune to the vast majority of CC troops. I'll take that trade.

Or, a third option, my opponent can split their fire two ways, and probably not manage to do decisive damage to either component of the army. Once again, I'll take that option.

So end up the missiles and meltas each do what there are best at. since odds are that s8 won't do anything meaningful to the wagon anyway.
Yes, your opponent splits his fire - Missiles at Dread, Meltas at Wagon. Your dread has successfully done ALMOST (key word being almost, not completely) nothing to draw efficient fire away from the wagon.

In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.

Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.

Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.

Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.

Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.

If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.

Against literally any other setup, though, they're quite useful as targets. And, of course, against ANY setup that fails to kill them at a distance, they're brutal assault units.


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XC18 wrote:To BeRzErKeR : hey, maybe I am the only one , but I am also interested about any way to use efficiently Deffdread with BW !
( because everybody say I shouldn't, and also because I like their look)

I won't go into all your tactics & mathhammer discussion since I have close to 0 experience, but
- DDred main weakness are "Slow" + "Must CC" and the solution you propose is the target saturation with BW + KFF protection .
- maybe you can also try to force you opponent to come to you (though I have no idea how. Could be possible in objective-base game?). Or your experience says it is not possible ?
- maybe, adding buggies /koptas / kommandos or Stormboys in the list could also help ? The idea is to bring as many cheap ( or moderately cheap) & fast units in contact with the opponent at turn 1 or 2. He will have no other choice than turning its guns on them (so more target saturation). Of course these units will attack everything - except the paladins unit.

BTW, do Paladins have strong shooting capability ?

Paladins can have quite strong midrange shooting; 4 psycannons in a 10-man squad gives them 16 S7 shots at 24". They can't hurt heavy armor, though.

Taking Snikrot and a big Kommando mob can sometimes convince your opponent to move a bit closer to you, or at least give you a good shot at smashing any rear-field shooting units. Otherwise, Orks usually cannot MAKE their opponents close the distance; in fact, the Orks are usually the ones doing the closing! GK will want to do so to some extent, though, since they have very little firepower beyond the 24" envelope of their psycannons.

Buggies can work well, but don't depend on them to attract much AT fire; AV10 open-topped vehicles die to things that can't even scratch heavier vehicles. Multi-lasers can kill them. If you take Buggies, you're using them for two things; to throw (relatively) accurate rokkit fire at transports, and to block movement. Maybe to give your Boyz cover for a turn. But don't plan on them attracting many meltas or lascannon shots. Deff Koptas and Stormboyz are even worse in this regard; small arms have a relatively easy time putting them down, so I don't think you'll see many anti-vehicle weapons at all pointed in their direction. Stormboyz CAN work decently together with Battlewagons, but they're not likely to reduce the weight of fire on the tanks much.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If I've got nothing but BWs on the table, there's hardly a decision to be made; shoot everything at the BWs, one at a time, until they die. If there's Dreads and BWs , it takes a bit more thought.

Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.

Ok, now I get what you are driving at.
But using our example (since we have been doing that all the while), it takes a bit more thought to decide what to do with the S8 missiles when faced with AV14 and AV12 dread on the board? REALLY?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Slim chances aren't worth taking IF you have some other option that is a BETTER chance. But after you've taken all the good options, you use up whatever you have left taking the slim chances. You might get lucky.

I have already said that?

BeRzErKeR wrote:And no, slim chances are NOT worth taking, if you have alternatives. You always select the action that gives you the best odds of achieving your objective. If you have no alternatives, then there isn't chance to speak of because it's either you do it, or nothing.

Why do you think what I have said is largely different from what you are trying to say? Or were you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?

BeRzErKeR wrote: 12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.

Oh, we haven't come to that yet, but since you brought this up, I ll explain abit for you.

On your first turn of movement (after my turn), the maximum you can move is 11 (maybe 12, but lets not be too precise), because of the wall of skimmers. And there is no 2" disembark because you have to be more than 1" away from my skimmers. And then after the skimmers, there is nothing in front of you except rhinos. So either you hit the boxcars, or you make huge detour. So turn 2 assault into anything at my home is IMPOSSIBLE. I thought you understand how traffic jamming works, but it seems you don't... Your opponents (those who shoot ordnance at your vehs) don't use such tactics I m sure? I would think the way they play with your orks is they line up in one horizontal line and wait for your orks to assault them. That's how all newbies play.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake.

Again, by saying this it shows you have never encountered skimmer walls before (i m pretty sure now). You mentioned in your previous post that an average of one squadron of speeders will miss their dodge on 3+. So that means all other wagons beside aren't moving, they stop in their track on your turn 2 movement. Turn 3, there is only that gap for the single wagon to pass through, and every other wagon line up behind, traffic jamming themself.

BeRzErKeR wrote:If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons,

Have you seen the v-shaped positioning ? (I told you we should play vassal!).
And also, rhinos can actually block LOS to wagons from Long Fangs?!?!

To top it up, 3-4 of your wagons (by average odds) should already be dead by end of turn 3...

BeRzErKeR wrote: if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.

Why do my GHs have to be on foot if they have a choice (apart from the rhino that just got wrecked by your rolla) ?

So while you are jamming yourself in the middle, I am happily torrenting your force with fire.

I know this may come surprising to you, and I know your friends don't do that. But they aren't even competitive...

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.

LOL, have you really TRIED 15 blast on boys in practical??? SERIOUSLY? You aren't assuming you hit everytime, do you?
Below is just a rough estimate :-
4 hits per blast for every blast that HITS - 20 hits
3 hits per blast for every misses and average scattering (that's pretty generous already) - 15
Nothing for every misses and above average scattering

Total 35 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 dead. - OH yah, your 22.5 don't even allow for cover saves?!?!

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

2 AV12 isn't "HARDER TARGETS" than 1 AV14 against S8 missiles. I am pretty sure of that. Maybe I am missing something. But show me your math. If it is, then I may start to agree with you

BeRzErKeR wrote:In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.

Yes, that was the exception we have brought up. And which I have already said that even so, the missiles don't have to worry about the Dreads first because they are one full turn slower than the wagons.
But I would'nt deny this is valid to a certain extent, in certain scenarios.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.

Have already said the odds of S9 against AV14 is bad, and forcing your opponent to shoot at AV14 and accept this bad odds is good for you. Said that twice or 3 times, I think you chose to ignore that again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.

Care to explain why a S10 ordnance has a smaller chance to kill a BW and a larger chance to kill a Dread ?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.

I have already said how poor your list is against DE and Eldar, due to their sheer speed, avoiding your Dreads almost the whole game. With their shots all on wagons, there is no target saturation to speak of.
Since I am at this, I might as well say this. Your list is better off with lootas replacing the dreads, and the most glaring benefits will be seen when you are playing against DE / Eldar.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.

How do you stop? Your Dreads walk in front of your wagons all game?

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.

I have to admit I m new with the new necron codex. Should scarabs even assault the Dreads?

thunderingjove wrote:

cgmckenzie wrote:You could hit them with burnas from the front of the wagon(open topped+template rules). Have a blob of 30 boyz wade in afterwards, survive ork assault, die GK assault. You now can do the burnas again, hopefully on less pallys.

Thinking about it, 2 SAG's supported by 45 lootas, 2 batteries of big guns(kannons preferably, but lobbas might work for pinning), a compliment of boyz, and some large bike squads might be the best way to deal with this certain problem. Keep them at range and blast them.

-cgmckenzie

SAGs are not as insane sounding as some might think; you have S8 or better about 40 percent of the time. My gripe is against the Ammo Runt; you're allowed only one!

First off, I actually run a unit of Burnaboyz I've dubbed my "Termie Huntaz". They've got 3 Meks with KMBs with them, for that nice 24" AP2- so what if you only hit every so often? When you do, it's gonna hurt. And you can then assault with Power Weapons.


And on the Ammo Runt... Perhaps attaching the SAGMek to a Flash Gitz mob? Gitz can get 3 ammo runts 'for the unit', so perhaps those'd be allowed for the Mek's use? Similar ideas with a Big Gunz battery, and some Lobbas would help with range, and possibly pinning the unit so they can't move around.

Actually, Flash Gitz could be a useful unit against Pallies, if only for their own survivability (with a Painboy and Cybork) and the ability to use their Gitfindas to be assured of being out of assault range. Also, a 1 in 3 (1/2 with Blastas) chance of ignoring armour with a Str 5/6 shot is pretty decent.

And aren't Zzap guns AP2?

Isseyfaran wrote: Ok, now I get what you are driving at.
But using our example (since we have been doing that all the while), it takes a bit more thought to decide what to do with the S8 missiles when faced with AV14 and AV12 dread on the board? REALLY?

Depends on the situation. If that AV14 is up in your face, and the AV12 is a turn away? Yes.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: 12" deployment, 13" move from the wagon, 2" deployment, 1" base; if you blow up a BW second turn, the front edge of the unit that falls out is 28" forward. Which means that on Ork turn 2, they can cross the board and assault anything in front of them.

Oh, we haven't come to that yet, but since you brought this up, I ll explain abit for you.

On your first turn of movement (after my turn), the maximum you can move is 11 (maybe 12, but lets not be too precise), because of the wall of skimmers. And there is no 2" disembark because you have to be more than 1" away from my skimmers. And then after the skimmers, there is nothing in front of you except rhinos. So either you hit the boxcars, or you make huge detour. So turn 2 assault into anything at my home is IMPOSSIBLE. I thought you understand how traffic jamming works, but it seems you don't... Your opponents (those who shoot ordnance at your vehs) don't use such tactics I m sure? I would think the way they play with your orks is they line up in one horizontal line and wait for your orks to assault them. That's how all newbies play.

Sigh.

You know nothing about who I am, how many times I've played, how long I've played this particularly army, against what other armies, what events I've played in. . . anything. You're trying to denigrate my past opponents, apparently, because you're incapable of conceiving that someone who doesn't deal with a problem in the same way as you can still deal with it well. And to top it off, you're also proposing an astoundingly stupid strategy.

Of COURSE I understand traffic-jamming, you idiot, I play a Battlewagon rush list! If you DON'T try to blockade a Battlewagon rush list you are a class-one, grade-A, certifiable moron! EVERYONE I play who has more than two vehicles tries it, and it hardly ever works. Hit the boxes or detour? I HIT THE BOXES. And I run right OVER them, because my whole army is in one place at all times and yours is split in three.

Blockading my first-turn movement with skimmers? Fine. That means I get to hit them with three deffrollas plus whatever you shot out of the other BW, probably Nobz (refer back to the math in a previous post, I'm not interested in doing it again). Boom, half of them are gone. Good job, you just lost 3-4 MM speeders and are unable to shoot with the others; and, at most, you held me back two inches. Or maybe you killed the unit that fell out; cool, that means I get to attack those speeders with Deff Dreads instead, because all the missiles shooting at the infantry aren't shooting at the Dreads. Either way, the majority of those speeders are toast in one turn.

Blockading my second turn's movement with Rhinos? Great! That means half of your army just MOVED RIGHT INTO ASSAULT RANGE. Transports will NOT save them, Orks eat transports in assault range for breakfast. All of my previously-dismounted troops form into columns to let the BWs pass between them and advance; Deffrollas smash two or three Rhinos, the rest of my troops disembark onto the Difficult Terrain that those Rhinos now are. If some of my infantry are too far back I'll call the Waagh, but likely I won't have to; everything will charge the Grey Hunters that were dropped out, and the rest of your Rhinos are killed by PK multi-assaults. Yes, I can kill all your Grey Hunters AND all your Rhinos in 2-3 assault phases, if you're kind enough to line them up for me like that. You've got a ton of troops and vehicles crammed into a small space with all MY troops and vehicles, which is exactly the environment in which assault-oriented Orks do best. Now you can't even shoot at most of my foot troops, because they're locked in assault; during your assault phase they finish wiping out your GHs and consolidate forward. Depending on how things went you still have up to 3 squads left, but they're dismounted and easy meat; next turn I Waaagh and sweep them up.

What you aren't appreciating is that you WILL lose any assault, and what you are proposing will put you into assault. Grey Hunters fight Boyz? They lose. They kill 6 boyz, the other 13 kill 3 of them and the Nob kills two, half the squad is gone and there are still 13 Orks left to finish them off next round even after they take another Fearless wound. You don't win that unless the Boyz mob is under half size, so even one that has their ride Exploded and charges under-strength will STILL usually beat you. Grey Hunters fight Nobz? They lose even worse. Grey Hunters fight Ghazzy? They get WRECKED. The only assault you can win is if your GH charge an under-strength squad of Boyz, and even then you take multiple casualties, after which your GH evaporate when another unit counter-charges them. That being so, bringing all those units into close-combat range like this is just plain bone-headed.

At this point, I probably have lost all the Battlewagons; your blockade worked just as intended. I don't care. I hit your Long Fangs on turn 3 or 4, depending on whether cleaning up the last of your Grey Hunters put me out of charge range for one turn, and I can kill them all just with Ghazzy and the Nobz, let alone any Dreads or Boyz that may have survived. Now you have a few MM speeders left alive, and you can snipe at me all you want with them; if you come in close enough to use the Heavy Flamers on me OR get the melta bonus I'll eat them in assault, and if not they can't do enough damage to stop me from doing anything I please; taking objectives, for instance.

Is it possible to blockade a BW list effectively enough to stop it? Yes. But it's not easy, and the way you're trying to do it is ineffective. Just putting a line of vehicles, or even two lines of vehicles, in the way WILL NOT do it. If anyone here doesn't understand traffic-jamming, frankly, it's you, and this next paragraph of yours proves it.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:The wall does create a movement problem, but there are a couple of ways to deal with it. First, all the surviving wagons Deffrolla forwards; any Rhinos they explode cease to exist, thus letting the BWs continue to their maximum movement and then unload troops through the hole, while foot troops follow in their wake.

Again, by saying this it shows you have never encountered skimmer walls before (i m pretty sure now). You mentioned in your previous post that an average of one squadron of speeders will miss their dodge on 3+. So that means all other wagons beside aren't moving, they stop in their track on your turn 2 movement. Turn 3, there is only that gap for the single wagon to pass through, and every other wagon line up behind, traffic jamming themself.

No. The BW that got to move forward is only 2" ahead of the ones who didn't, because you didn't blockade them until nearly the end of their movement range anyway; they stay in line and let foot troops clear out the speeders in the Assault phase of turn 2. Remember those guys you dismounted turn 1? They're still right up next to my BWs; they got to dismount in FRONT of the vehicle you blew. Which means that you lose one squad of speeders to the Deffrollas, and ANOTHER to the Nobz, and if I feel like dismounting the OTHER nobz, you also lose the third squad.

After that, I'm gonna be hitting your Rhinos almost immediately; why would I bother to try and squeeze all my transports through a gap, assuming any speeders are still alive to define one? You've advanced to meet me, my speed is now largely irrelevant. You, in trying to blockade me, have done my job for me. I get to eat most of your army before my fourth turn, and you did it to yourself. I only need two turns to reach you if you're playing keep-away, but you AREN'T. You just basically moved forward into my ideal engagement envelope, and then stopped. The net effect is to cut my travel time down and make the transports that this whole maneuver is supposed to kill largely unimportant. It's a colossally dumb move.

If you want to play keep-away so as to get more time to shoot, you do NOT do it by sending half your army forward to get eaten. You block with one or two vehicles at a time, forcing me to choose between three bad options. I can go around (playing havoc with my timing and giving you free side/rear armor shots with melta) or try to smash straight through with a Deffrolla (reasonably high chance of failure with a single BW, and I can't really use more than 1 due to space and timing issues) or disembark troops to break the single tin can in my way (meaning you get to rip whatever I disembark to pieces with fire next turn, unless I screw up my timing even more AND give you side armor shots by blocking LOS to them with another wagon). THAT is how you stop a BW rush list; you break up the momentum, force units to dismount in different places, and try to take them out one by one.

If you block with 6 Rhinos all at once, I just jump out and KILL them all at once. You have put up a solid wall comprised of HALF your army in front of my WHOLE army, after trivially delaying me with a token force, and it will not hold up. This is exactly what I want you to do. It's the best possible outcome for me, besides you just surrendering on turn 1. It's what I would expect from a first-time mech player who'd read up on blocking assaults on the Internet and never actually done it, or perhaps a player who has never played a game against BW Orks. What you'll manage to accomplish is to pit less than 1000 points worth of non-CC optimized MEQ against more than 1300 points of relentlessly CC focused Orks in assault over two turns, and that's just an overly long and complex way to say that you'll lose.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:If that doesn't happen, well, your Long Fangs in the backfield there are going to have trouble drawing LOS to any dismounted troops behind the Rhino wall; they might not even be able to see the wagons,

Have you seen the v-shaped positioning ? (I told you we should play vassal!).
And also, rhinos can actually block LOS to wagons from Long Fangs?!?!

My apologies; I accidentally left out a phrase. That should have read, "if dismounted they might not even be able to see the wagons". No, Rhinos cannot block LOS from Razorbacks to Battlewagons. They can, with careful positioning on the Ork player's part, be used to block LOS from infantry models to Battlewagons. Of course, if your Long Fangs are mounted in the Razorbacks, they aren't firing five missiles per turn. If they're dismounted then yes, I can pretty much guarantee that I can prevent you from seeing one or two of my BWs by using a combination of your Rhinos and the third BW.

Isseyfaran wrote:To top it up, 3-4 of your wagons (by average odds) should already be dead by end of turn 3...

See above, re: I don't care. They've done their job, and if you've pulled the damn-fool send-all-my-GH-to-get-killed trick you seem to be advocating, basically all of your Troops are dead and I'm one turn away from taking out your Razorbacks. It might take me two to kill the Long Fangs depending on where they are and if they move, so I may not actually finish killing ALL your infantry until Turn 5.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: if they're on foot, and any dismounted Orks will spend the turn destroying whatever Rhinos the Deffrollas didn't kill via multi-assault with the GH that jumped out to shoot. That'll create Difficult Terrain, which will impede the dismounted troops but not the wagons, since Deffrollas let you re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests. All in all the blockade is an annoyance, nothing more.

Why do my GHs have to be on foot if they have a choice (apart from the rhino that just got wrecked by your rolla) ?

So while you are jamming yourself in the middle, I am happily torrenting your force with fire.

I know this may come surprising to you, and I know your friends don't do that. But they aren't even competitive...

You mean, while I'm jamming myself in the middle for ONE OR TWO TURNS, in cover, while happily massacring half your army? And you're 'torrenting' me with WHAT, exactly? Oh, right. . . missile launchers. Yeah, that's gonna accomplish a lot. Go ahead, kill the Deff Dread, or shoot those missiles at my infantry. It will make not a single solitary speck of difference, because you've already thrown away most of your troops in a pointless attack.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Assuming 3 hits per blast (which is pretty generous for 15 blasts), 15 frag missiles kill 22.5 Boyz. So yes, in fact they do. Not quite sure of the relevance, though.

LOL, have you really TRIED 15 blast on boys in practical??? SERIOUSLY? You aren't assuming you hit everytime, do you?
Below is just a rough estimate :-
4 hits per blast for every blast that HITS - 20 hits
3 hits per blast for every misses and average scattering (that's pretty generous already) - 15
Nothing for every misses and above average scattering

Total 35 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 dead. - OH yah, your 22.5 don't even allow for cover saves?!?!

I tipped all of my assumptions in favor of the Space Wolves. Actually, that's what I've been doing all along; for instance, all of my vehicle damage calculations assumed that every hit you scored penetrated, including those that mathematically should be glances. I believe in preparing for bad luck; I always assume that my opponent will be consistently a little luckier than me. It gives me a realistic idea of what I can do with my units even if things go wrong.

If your point was that you would always shoot the missiles at the Deff Dreads. . . ok. Good for you. You kill 'em both while your troops are being slaughtered in the midfield (assuming you can see them past the Battlewagons), then your Long Fangs might get one more turn of shooting if they're in the veeeery back corner of the board. Then they die.

At this point, your abominable grasp of anti-Ork tactics have literally made it a moot point whether Deff Dreads provide target saturation or not; I'd have a decent shot at winning this battle WITHOUT BRINGING THEM, because you've clearly demonstrated that while you have quite a decent grasp of the math involved, you tactically have no notion of how to deal with Battlewagon Orks. Have you ever actually played against a BW list? I mean. . . ever? Because if you had, I would like to think that you'd know enough not to throw all your Troops willy-nilly into the teeth of a mass Ork assault.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Yes, they will; but they'll have 5 targets instead of 6, because I could only get a single extra BW and something cheap to put in it. BWs are harder targets than Dreads, but 2 targets are better than 1. I value the extra target and CC power over the single target with extra survivability.

2 AV12 isn't "HARDER TARGETS" than 1 AV14 against S8 missiles. I am pretty sure of that. Maybe I am missing something. But show me your math. If it is, then I may start to agree with you

I'm tired of this. Against missiles AND MISSILES ALONE, 2 AV12 under a KFF are worth less than 1 AV 14 Open-Topped under a KFF. Against literally any weapon of higher Strength OR any Lance weapon, 2 AV 12 vehicles are better.

Against AV 14 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.22 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~8% chance to disable a KFF-protected Battlewagon per lascannon per turn. Remember that BWs are open-topped, which means 2/3rds of all pens disable it (destroy, explode or immobilize).

Against AV 12 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.44 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~11% chance to disable a KFF-protected Deff Dread per lascannon per turn. Deff Dreads are NOT open-topped, meaning only 1/2 of pens disable them.

The numbers get worse for S10 weapons, or AP1 weapons. I repeat; against ANY anti-tank weapon EXCEPT Missile Launchers and Autocannons, 2 AV 12 hulls are harder to kill than a single AV 14 hull. So if you're running any army that isn't Space Wolves, OR any Space Wolf build that isn't mass Missile Launcher spam, 2 Deff Dreads provide better target saturation than 1 Battlewagon.

Isseyfaran wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:In SOME situations, that will be true.

Unless my opponent repositions his missile squad to get side-armor shots on a BW.

Yes, that was the exception we have brought up. And which I have already said that even so, the missiles don't have to worry about the Dreads first because they are one full turn slower than the wagons.
But I would'nt deny this is valid to a certain extent, in certain scenarios.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's using lascannons instead of missiles.

Have already said the odds of S9 against AV14 is bad, and forcing your opponent to shoot at AV14 and accept this bad odds is good for you. Said that twice or 3 times, I think you chose to ignore that again.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got some S10 Ordnance that he wants to shoot, and needs to decide between a smaller chance to kill a BW or a larger chance to kill a Dread.

Care to explain why a S10 ordnance has a smaller chance to kill a BW and a larger chance to kill a Dread ?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Lance weapons, which don't care about AV 14.

I have already said how poor your list is against DE and Eldar, due to their sheer speed, avoiding your Dreads almost the whole game. With their shots all on wagons, there is no target saturation to speak of.
Since I am at this, I might as well say this. Your list is better off with lootas replacing the dreads, and the most glaring benefits will be seen when you are playing against DE / Eldar.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Or he's got Scarabs that I need to stop BEFORE they can assault the wagons and remove that lovely AV 14.

How do you stop? Your Dreads walk in front of your wagons all game?

BeRzErKeR wrote:If the Deff Dreads draw any of THAT hurt away from the wagons, they have in fact performed a valuable service. As I already said, in the highly specific and unlikely circumstance of the enemy depending ENTIRELY on missiles and meltas for AT then yes, the fire-drawing benefits of the Deff Dreads are minimized; still not canceled out, but minimized.

I have to admit I m new with the new necron codex. Should scarabs even assault the Dreads?

In order;

1. Nothing is ever valid in a game like 40k except 'to a certain extent, in some scenarios'.

2. False. Go back to the math I posted above; this is flatly wrong. Lascannons have an EASIER time killing 1 Open-topped AV 14 than 2 AV 12. I didn't choose to ignore what you said, I contradicted it, because it's incorrect.

3. On this one you're correct; Ordnance Blast is more likely to hit the BW than the Deff Dread because the Dread is smaller, so the chance to disable a KFF-covered BW is ~14% per shot while the chance to disable a Deff Dread is ~10% per shot. The first time I ran the math, I failed to include the fact that BWs are open-topped.

4. Eldar and DE can flit around all they want. For one thing, in order to keep me from charging their tanks they have to stay out of a 28" circle around my Battlewagons; that doesn't leave much of the table to move around in. Second, 2/3rds of missions are objectives; in Seize Ground I place all of mine as close together as possible and sit on them til turn 5, when I spread out to contest or claim the others. In Capture and Control I stay inside cover on my objective til about turn 4, then charge across the table to contest or capture theirs with most of my troops while leaving something behind to hold mine. Lances alone don't have enough power to shift me once I AM dismounted; They HAVE to close in to try and dislodge me, and then the extra range of those lances doesn't matter at all. In assault, Eldar die to Orks like flies; DE are tougher, but MSU DE with lots of Dark Lances are still far too fragile to win a slugging contest with Orks. Still, with all that, I agree that this build is at a slight disadvantage against MSU Lance-heavy builds, DE much more than Eldar.

5. No, they Run beside them, and Run or charge ahead when I see scarabs coming. It only matters within the first two turns, which is before my wagons will have significantly outdistanced my Dreads.

6. I've only played one game against Newcrons, but I would say that yes, Scarabs should assault vehicles anytime they have the chance. Against a Deff Dread they'll a lot of them will die, but what they leave behind is easy meat for shooting after Entropic Strike (if I've got the name of the ability right) has reduced its AV down to 10; and Tomb Spyders can always generate more.

Anvildude wrote:And on the Ammo Runt.... Perhaps attaching the SAGMek to a Flash Gitz mob? Gitz can get 3 ammo runts 'for the unit', so perhaps those'd be allowed for the Mek's use? Similar ideas with a Big Gunz battery, and some Lobbas would help with range, and possibly pinning the unit so they can't move around.

Actually, Flash Gitz could be a useful unit against Pallies, if only for their own survivability (with a Painboy and Cybork) and the ability to use their Gitfindas to be assured of being out of assault range. Also, a 1 in 3 (1/2 with Blastas) chance of ignoring armour with a Str 5/6 shot is pretty decent.

And aren't Zzap guns AP2?

Flash Gitz don't have wound allocation shenanigans like Nob Bikerz do. Still, the Cybork and FNP would be quite decent against Palladins shooting at you, but mean nothing in CC with them due to Force Weapons. My main problem is that they cost 125 points for 5 shots to 485 points for 18 shots and one Heavy Support slot. At 25-27 points per shot, you could purchase twice as many guaranteed shots in Lootas with the chance to get more. Attaching a SAG to the Grot crew of a Zzap Gun battery still takes up a HS slot, but they are much cheaper way (45 points!) to get 3 more Ammo Runts for your SAG. You can even max out the Battery crew to give your Mek a decent meat shield, the SAG can pick a target separate from the Battery, and he only risks wounds on a 5+ if the unit is targeted.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Depends on the situation. If that AV14 is up in your face, and the AV12 is a turn away? Yes.

If the wagons are up in my face, I have lost anyway. So your are merely using a ridiculously situation to explain your stand.
If the AV14 is a turn away and the Dread 2turns away, then everything into the sides of the wagons, dread later. Which is "point 2" of why dreads aren't a good complement. Said that many times.

BeRzErKeR wrote: Sigh.

You know nothing about who I am, how many times I've played, how long I've played this particularly army, against what other armies, what events I've played in. . . anything. You're trying to denigrate my past opponents,

SURE. Show us what events you ve played and your achievements, since you brought it up. I m waiting.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Of COURSE I understand traffic-jamming, you idiot,

Congrats, your attempt at personal attack doesn't make your argument stronger, it merely make you appear low.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I play a Battlewagon rush list! If you DON'T try to blockade a Battlewagon rush list you are a class-one, grade-A, certifiable moron! EVERYONE I play who has more than two vehicles tries it, and it hardly ever works. Hit the boxes or detour? I HIT THE BOXES. And I run right OVER them, because my whole army is in one place at all times and yours is split in three.

Blockading my first-turn movement with skimmers? Fine. That means I get to hit them with three deffrollas plus whatever you shot out of the other BW, probably Nobz (refer back to the math in a previous post, I'm not interested in doing it again). Boom, half of them are gone. Good job, you just lost 3-4 MM speeders and are unable to shoot with the others;

LOL. Let me quote what you said in your previous post.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Nobz get 2 S5 hits, a S7 hit and a S9 hit (rounding all fractions down) which gives a couple damage rolls; that squad of speeders isn't shooting next turn. The Deffrollas, since there were 3 of them, on average hit once

If a squad of speeders isnt shooting, and another squad got decimated, then it means the third squad of 2 remains intact. So i don't know how you got your magic no. "3-4" . I m sure you didnt think when you type your previous post, right?

BeRzErKeR wrote:Blockading my second turn's movement with Rhinos? Great! That means half of your army just MOVED RIGHT INTO ASSAULT RANGE. Transports will NOT save them, Orks eat transports in assault range for breakfast. All of my previously-dismounted troops form into columns to let the BWs pass between them and advance; Deffrollas smash two or three Rhinos,

1 speeder squadron got toast, the other not shooting, and last one intact. Not sure how you are going to do that when the space taken up by 2 speeders only allow one wagon to squeeze through. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

All of what you said after this isn't even valid anymore.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Which means that you lose one squad of speeders to the Deffrollas, and ANOTHER to the Nobz, and if I feel like dismounting the OTHER nobz, you also lose the third squad.

Realize how all of a sudden those "speeders that aren't shooting anymore" are suddenly gone? Your probability increases with every post you make. Seriously, do you even re read what you type previously? I mean... LOL.

BeRzErKeR wrote:My apologies; I accidentally left out a phrase. That should have read, "if dismounted they might not even be able to see the wagons". No, Rhinos cannot block LOS from Razorbacks to Battlewagons. They can, with careful positioning on the Ork player's part, be used to block LOS from infantry models to Battlewagons. Of course, if your Long Fangs are mounted in the Razorbacks, they aren't firing five missiles per turn. If they're dismounted then yes, I can pretty much guarantee that I can prevent you from seeing one or two of my BWs by using a combination of your Rhinos and the third BW.

You said rhinos block the wagons. Then now you are saying rhinos + wagon block other wagons. Make up your mind?

Nvm, take pictures and show us that your BRILLIANT positioning CAN actually block LOS from Long fangs to Battlewagons. THANKS.

Again the rest of what you posted following this is based on wrong assumptions from above (fix those above first). So nothing much I can comment on, much like when you claim grots can win assault terminators in assault. What more can I say?

BeRzErKeR wrote:
I tipped all of my assumptions in favor of the Space Wolves. Actually, that's what I've been doing all along; for instance, all of my vehicle damage calculations assumed that every hit you scored penetrated, including those that mathematically should be glances. I believe in preparing for bad luck; I always assume that my opponent will be consistently a little luckier than me. It gives me a realistic idea of what I can do with my units even if things go wrong.

If your point was that you would always shoot the missiles at the Deff Dreads. . . ok. Good for you. You kill 'em both while your troops are being slaughtered in the midfield (assuming you can see them past the Battlewagons), then your Long Fangs might get one more turn of shooting if they're in the veeeery back corner of the board. Then they die.

LOL, now you change the topic. Let's get back to topic. 15 Missiles kill 1 Dread more readily than 20 boys, don't they, contrary to what you claimed just now? We are talking about target saturation here, so save your stories about who gets slaughtered by who.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
At this point, your abominable grasp of anti-Ork tactics have literally made it a moot point whether Deff Dreads provide target saturation or not; I'd have a decent shot at winning this battle WITHOUT BRINGING THEM, because you've clearly demonstrated that while you have quite a decent grasp of the math involved, you tactically have no notion of how to deal with Battlewagon Orks. Have you ever actually played against a BW list? I mean. . . ever? Because if you had, I would like to think that you'd know enough not to throw all your Troops willy-nilly into the teeth of a mass Ork assault.

LOL, i like this comment of yours. OK, i have never played a wagon list before, much less seen them. Shall we have a game in vassal so that I can seen the prowess of your list? OH please don't give excuse that you are lazy to download the program or your have no time, or some other excuse. LETS PLAY. I m most willing to learn from an "expert" like you, and experience speeders getting blown up like nobody business by nobs hitting them on sixes.

I m EXCITED :-).

BeRzErKeR wrote:Against AV 14 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.22 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~8% chance to disable a KFF-protected Battlewagon per lascannon per turn. Remember that BWs are open-topped, which means 2/3rds of all pens disable it (destroy, explode or immobilize).

Against AV 12 a BS 4 lascannon gets 0.44 damage results per turn; assuming no glances and all pens, that works out to a ~11% chance to disable a KFF-protected Deff Dread per lascannon per turn. Deff Dreads are NOT open-topped, meaning only 1/2 of pens disable them.

Your math is correct. But you have just compared one wagon to one Dread. Where is your 1 wagon to 2 dread comparison?

BeRzErKeR wrote:1. Nothing is ever valid in a game like 40k except 'to a certain extent, in some scenarios'.

And I have said that EVEN in the circumstances that you are facing your side against me, your dread is STILL one full turn slower - not forcing me to make tough decisions.
Are you thinking straight?

BeRzErKeR wrote:False. Go back to the math I posted above; this is flatly wrong. Lascannons have an EASIER time killing 1 Open-topped AV 14 than 2 AV 12. I didn't choose to ignore what you said, I contradicted it, because it's incorrect.

You haven't done me the math of 2 Dreads aaginst 1 wagon, merely 1 vs 1.

BeRzErKeR wrote:in order to keep me from charging their tanks they have to stay out of a 28" circle around my Battlewagons; that doesn't leave much of the table to move around in.

So the issue here is they don't even have to fire at your dreads, do they? All they are concerned is firing at your wagon, because your dreads aren't even a threat to them. your dreads don't have 28" threat range. Once again, you have shown us how useless the dreads are in complement with the wagons. Congrats.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Second, 2/3rds of missions are objectives; in Seize Ground I place all of mine as close together as possible and sit on them til turn 5, when I spread out to contest or claim the others. In Capture and Control I stay inside cover on my objective til about turn 4, then charge across the table to contest or capture theirs with most of my troops while leaving something behind to hold mine. Lances alone don't have enough power to shift me once I AM dismounted; They HAVE to close in to try and dislodge me, and then the extra range of those lances doesn't matter at all. In assault, Eldar die to Orks like flies; DE are tougher, but MSU DE with lots of Dark Lances are still far too fragile to win a slugging contest with Orks. Still, with all that, I agree that this build is at a slight disadvantage against MSU Lance-heavy builds, DE much more than Eldar.

Not sure what you are arguing here? What good is your dread here?

BeRzErKeR wrote:No, they Run beside them, and Run or charge ahead when I see scarabs coming. It only matters within the first two turns, which is before my wagons will have significantly outdistanced my Dreads.

I LOL-ed at the parts in bold. You mean dreads have greater threat range than scarabs?


And thanks for your compliment regarding my BatRep. I think I m good with Tau, just wondering how good you are with your orks. Vassal ok? No excuses ok?

Please take this into the PM realm.

@Isseyfaran; I have Vassal, I use it frequently. But I'm not going to set up a game with you, because I don't care if you believe me or not.

Believe me or not, whatever you want. When you go up against a BW rush list, with your grasp of the tactics involved, you'll get stomped into the mud. That's not my problem. I've tried to correct your ignorance, but it seems invincible, so, oh well.

Most of the 'problems' you bring up are, in fact, due to your failing to read my posts and understand them. Try doing that. I'll even give you an example; the math for 1 BW vs. 2 Dreads is not materially different from the math for 1 BW vs 1 Dread. It requires only a moment's thought ro realize that doubling the number of AV12 hulls means doubling the number of shots required to kill them both. And in fact I DID present the conclusion of the exercise, you just don't seem to have bothered to read it.

". . .against ANY anti-tank weapon EXCEPT Missile Launchers and Autocannons, 2 AV 12 hulls are harder to kill than a single AV 14 hull."

There are several more such forehead-slapping moments throughout your post; I'll leave it to you to find them. Good day.

@kaiser; Nah, I'd rather just end it.

To the OP; Apologies for dragging your thread so OT. I think the question of 'what Orks use to kill paladins' has basically been answered. Ghazzy does it, Nobz are mediocre at it, Dreads are effective, Kans are kinda-sorta effective. Nothing besides that is very good at all.

BeRzErKeR wrote:@Isseyfaran; I have Vassal, I use it frequently. But I'm not going to set up a game with you, because I don't care if you believe me or not.

Believe me or not, whatever you want. When you go up against a BW rush list, with your grasp of the tactics involved, you'll get stomped into the mud. That's not my problem. I've tried to correct your ignorance, but it seems invincible, so, oh well.

LOL, you claim I ll get stomped. You claim you have vassal.
But for some funny reason you refuse to play. You prefer all talk but no action, because this way you can never be proved wrong.

You claim you have tournament experience. But when asked about it, you keep quiet.
You claim (using your math) in one comment that your nobs merely keeps my speeders from shooting, but in another comment claim that they are gone (for some strange reasons.
You resort to personal attacks, using words like "idiot"
You can't explain how 3 surviving wagons can squeeze through 2 speeders worth of space
You claim with your smart positioning, you can actually prevent LFs from drawing LOS to wagons (that sounds like magic to me SERIOUSLY). But you can't explain how.
You refuse to admit that contrary to your belief, that 15 missiles take down a dread much easier than 20 boys. When I put the math in front of you, you attempt to change the topic because your ego tells you you should never admit your mistake.
Scarabs have greater threat range than DeffDreads. But you claimed that as soon as you see the scarabs, you will assault them so as to prevent them from assaulting your wagon. So there are 2 possibilities here :- (1) Either your opponent moves his scarabs with charge range of your wagon and waits for your dread to charge him, i.e. he is a noob, (2) you actually don't know the threat range of scarabs but is too quick to want to prove yourself with words here.


Seriously, you ve only made it more obvious to me that you are an empty vessel, and that all you ve did in your whole of 40k experience is play 40k with your brothers and sister, and maybe a few of your good friends, despite you claiming that you actually play with pros and plays in competitive settings Now, I am not even flattered that you commended me for being a good Tau player - because that comment comes from you...

I no longer use Nob units in any list due to the fact I play Grey Knights 2/5ths of the time. With so much GK out there I think this is a perfect post, thanks to the OP.

I use a 9 Kan Box (3 Grotzookas up front with 2 sets of 3 Rokkits or KMB's on either side) with 1 KFF along with 3 Deff Koptas, Snik, some Lootas, and just recently switched out my Deff Dred and some Lootas for Ghaz which has worked out well.

Last game I dropped 2 more Lootas to switch 6 Kans from Rokkits to KMB's. Of course I get matched up with Demons who all have Inv saves so that was a waste

However I find even with Paladins my Grotzookas kill more than the Rokkits ever did. People just underestimate them. I'm looking forward to running the KMB's to see how the change alters the results.

Here's a quick chart of percentages based on how many Paladins wounded with Apothecary and 4+ cover saves (Rokkits and KMB's are ID):

Skorcha
1 hit = 5.56%
2 hit = 11.11%
3 hit = 16.67%
4 hit = 22.22%
5 hit = 27.78%
6 hit = 33.33%

Grotzooka
1 with template and 2/3 scatter= 4.63%
2 with template and 2/3 scatter= 9.26%
3 with template and 2/3 scatter = 13.89%
4 with template and 2/3 scatter = 18.52%
5 with template and 2/3 scatter = 23.15%
6 with template and 2/3 scatter = 27.78%

Rokkit
6.94%

KMB
20.83%

This doesn't include scatter reduced by BS3 of course. The important things to remember are the TAC mentality and the fact that Skorchas cost X points, Grotzookas 2X, Rokkits 3X, and KMB's cost 4X.

I think the best bet to killing Paladins are first shooting with Kans, then assaulting with Ghaz, Boyz, and Kanz. Works pretty well for me. Lootas, Snik, and BuzzKoptas take out/tie up Rifledreads just fine in my experience.

As previously mentioned, I believe Wagon or Trukk burnas, and Lootas are your best bet. Sheer firepower.

PipeAlley wrote:I no longer use Nob units in any list due to the fact I play Grey Knights 2/5ths of the time. With so much GK out there I think this is a perfect post, thanks to the OP.

I use a 9 Kan Box (3 Grotzookas up front with 2 sets of 3 Rokkits or KMB's on either side) with 1 KFF along with 3 Deff Koptas, Snik, some Lootas, and just recently switched out my Deff Dred and some Lootas for Ghaz which has worked out well.

Last game I dropped 2 more Lootas to switch 6 Kans from Rokkits to KMB's. Of course I get matched up with Demons who all have Inv saves so that was a waste

However I find even with Paladins my Grotzookas kill more than the Rokkits ever did. People just underestimate them. I'm looking forward to running the KMB's to see how the change alters the results.

Here's a quick chart of percentages based on how many Paladins wounded with Apothecary and 4+ cover saves (Rokkits and KMB's are ID):

Skorcha
1 hit = 5.56%
2 hit = 11.11%
3 hit = 16.67%
4 hit = 22.22%
5 hit = 27.78%
6 hit = 33.33%

Grotzooka
1 with template and 2/3 scatter= 4.63%
2 with template and 2/3 scatter= 9.26%
3 with template and 2/3 scatter = 13.89%
4 with template and 2/3 scatter = 18.52%
5 with template and 2/3 scatter = 23.15%
6 with template and 2/3 scatter = 27.78%

Rokkit
6.94%

KMB
20.83%

This doesn't include scatter reduced by BS3 of course. The important things to remember are the TAC mentality and the fact that Skorchas cost X points, Grotzookas 2X, Rokkits 3X, and KMB's cost 4X.

I think the best bet to killing Paladins are first shooting with Kans, then assaulting with Ghaz, Boyz, and Kanz. Works pretty well for me. Lootas, Snik, and BuzzKoptas take out/tie up Rifledreads just fine in my experience.

I 2nd the KMB on Killa Kans, as well as Ghaz in a Kan wall build, contrary to Jidmah's belief.
KMB didnt use to be cost efficient in the past, but with the metagame shifting heavily towards GKs, the extra pt spend to get a S8 AP2 now is kind of worth it - just sufficient to instant kill a Paladin.