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Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

IcedAnimals wrote:

pretre wrote:

ShatteredBlade wrote:I'm wanting to get back into the game with Sisters, but as of now I'm just waiting for the plastic infantry. I'm thinking about buying Rhino's and painting them up as I wait. But I'm terrified that when they actually DO get a codex, there will be Repressors in there and the Rhino won't even be a choice.

You've got probably 2 years, at minimum, before you need to worry about plastic sisters. Most of us have been waiting for almost 15 years on the rumors of plastic sisters, so I wouldn't sweat it. As for Repressors, just get the Immolator kit and use that to make your rhinos. Should be an easy conversion if they ever add Repressors to the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, updated my BR thread with all the gory details:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/429752.page

Keep in mind that the Repressor is still just a rhino chassis with a dozer blade thrown on the front and the simple conversion kit from forgeworld. Or you can even buy the complete kit from forgeworld and hold onto the extra parts until you need repressors. Or even just use repressors currently.

Well, the Forge World repressors I've built suffered from resin shrinkage, the two that I've built, so I didn't really want to deal with that as no amount of heating it up got it to fit as both upgrade kits, both from separate batches just plain didn't fit upon the rhino. When I did finally sand down the rhino and used GS to fit it in, it still just looked like gak, but I've decided to just built and paint the exorcists and Immolators, as others have suggested upon this page. But let us drop it, as it is OT

You can't. You have 4 DCA/2 Crusaders + Uriah in a 6 Model Transport.


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Tomb King wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

Damn, you ninja'd me.

pretre wrote:You can't. You have 4 DCA/2 Crusaders + Uriah in a 6 Model Transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomb King wrote:

Celtic Strike wrote:With the battle conclave. +1 attack, Feel no pain and a re-roll on the charge are too good to pass up.

The reason he asked is you have the battle concave in an immolator with only a 6 model capacity. Adding uriah would make it 7. I really hope you weren't doing that haha.

Damn, you ninja'd me.

Thats what you get for taking away my passing test grade

His battle report said rhino instead of immolator so maybe a recent change without realizing the bad side effect hehe.

Tomb King wrote:His battle report said rhino instead of immolator so maybe a recent change without realizing the bad side effect hehe.

Yeah, I really want to check out his BR's but I am morally opposed to video battle reports.

in a thought: heavy flamers are to pricey for my taste, and to short ranged. For Retris, i take HB.
my composition is 1495:
Uriah bomb 7DCA2Cru in rhino w dozer
St.Cele - for its points, versatile. I'm in love for 2000pt at max XD
2 BSS w 2 meltas combi melta in rhino
2 10 lady dominions w 3 melta and a flamer in rhino
2 retributors w 4 HB
one exorcist.

my thoughts of useing 10 lady dominion squad is that i can have more chance to pop anything.
On the combi weapons - since their price is the same - im thinking on swapable types, as i do on all melta type weapons. Against Horde type armies - not actual lists - im willing to sac a few meltas for more flamers.

why i use 1 exorcist: i dont like it that much as i like retris, but has its advantages, esp final round.
why dont i use 5 domi mm imos? for 80 pt a 3 lascannon hit die type vehicle isnt my idea of greatness. 3 lascannons on a 10 lady squad...well maybe 2 die. 2 out of 10, boohoo. And the rhino is cheaper w the same armor values and 2 fire points. And if the immo is popped, loseing 1-2 yout of 5 means bad news, loseing 1-2 out of 10 is just calculated casualty.

5 lady domis in rhino: price effective, but not combat effective. The only advantage is that you provide more targets to be hit w big gunz, and makeing it more kp.

if i count the transports, the hq and the squads apart, thats 15 kp.

going to 1850, i have a 1825 composition, adding a nother BSS and a 10 lady seraphim, w no upgrades so far.
On the seraphm upgrades: 10pt each for an s3ap5 template pistol. No way! Fits in the legacy of the sisters, but to-to-to over priced. 5 point for an s4ap5 flamer and 10 for an s3 ap5 hand flamer - am i the only who doesnt find logic in that?
inferno pistol?! wtf 15 pf for a pistol that has a range of 6" and is a metla. WTF?! again! Eviscerators are pricey to, but are the only logical up I'd take for any melee model i use. but for 25pt, no thanks - or maybe to fill in the remaining 25.

Seraphim get to fire both those pistols, don't they? Two flame templates at S3 ap6. Which with their faith to re-roll wounds essencially makes them two S4 ap6 attacks.
The faster or farther a unit can move, the more expensive the guns they carry are, since they're more likely to get a chance to use them.
Especially since they can hit and run, so they can land close to an enemy, flame the bajesus out of them, assault them and either choose to run away to safety or stay in the fight one more round to prevent getting shot to pieces then escape and use the flamers again.
An Assault squad pays 10 points for a flamer, as opposed to the 5 point it is for every other normal space marine. The sisters get two flamers for 20 points.

I would guess, if they didn't have the act of faith that is particularly designed for flamers, or they didn't have hit and run so they had a chance to use the flamer more than once, and they didn't have jump packs so they'd be in range to flame once for sure, it'd be cheaper.

But yeah, it's a lot of points on a single model for the sisters army, especially one that still dies faster than a marine but pays the "same" amount for the weapon.

(of course, if leak dex is real, getting to use those inferno pistols and flamers in CC would be nasty as all get out, and then you could assault, hit and run, and then shoot them to death afterwards. hehe.)

so on a basis vs GEQ: you wound on 4+, plus reroll the failed on a 4+, thats a 75% wounding with a normal GEQ general equiping the army if able to 4+ saves, meaning 37.5% of those wounds will actualy cause causualty. Geting a dominion squad of 10 ladies flamers and haveing twin-link is much more fun and cots less - 10lady domi w flamers and combi flamer in rhino 190, 10 seras w 2 two hand flamers 195.

Agreed, the strength of the Seras is not TL-Flamer wounds.

Keep in mind though that the Seraphs get 2 templates each. Which for a 5 girl squad with 2 flamers might make them a bit cheaper than a 10 dom squad with 4 flamers, etc.

well, in math hammer, i would need 3 hits in average to take out a power armor model, meaning 15 shots. Yeah, can rerol failed invul saves, but only one save can be rolled, so for a hail of bolter fire, you wil role armor. 15 shots from bolters rapid fire means i have 7-8 models with standard bolters. a BSS squad from the cover of a rhino?

My idea of seraphs is distraction and mocking, if ignored, krackgrenadeing the tanks in the back. To fragile to use in a squad of 5, esp for its points with only the hand flamers. what, they cost 70 less than a 10 lady domi, and can die faster....much much faster.

in the pc version, they are godesses, but in tabletop, havent found real advantages. Two bolt pistol shots with a possible reroll failed wounds rule. so vs GEQ you wound on a 3+ and they get to make saves with the effichiency of fireing w a bolter from rapid fire, but you are able to assault and get one ewtra attack cause of the pistols. Greedy me, that just isnt my idea of a main disruption force.

sorry, i mis calculated the number of shots i would require. on a bs value of 4 i would need 30 shots in average. so thats basically 2 MEQ squads...or 30 gretchin with a little luck XD

Yeah, I love that Seras got some love in the update, but still can't field them when I could be fielding Doms.

pretre wrote:Agreed, the strength of the Seras is not TL-Flamer wounds.

Keep in mind though that the Seraphs get 2 templates each. Which for a 5 girl squad with 2 flamers might make them a bit cheaper than a 10 dom squad with 4 flamers, etc.

What do you see as their strength then? That is all I use Seraphim for as I have never been enamored by the paired inferno pistols due to thier price and range. I realize I may be alone in that since most people use 3 Dominion squads for fast attack. I use them as my trouble shooters so to speak. Being highly mobile and versatile, they can usually be where I need them quickly and support another unit.

andrewm9 wrote:What do you see as their strength then? That is all I use Seraphim for as I have never been enamored by the paired inferno pistols due to thier price and range. I realize I may be alone in that since most people use 3 Dominion squads for fast attack. I use them as my trouble shooters so to speak. Being highly mobile and versatile, they can usually be where I need them quickly and support another unit.

To be honest, their strength is lacking. The double tap for each pistol is nice, H&R is nice (although init sucks), but their mobility is their only real draw. They can get where you need them without getting stunned or shaken.

The problem is that they are T3/3+/6++ models, so don't last long on a battlefield if left in the open.

DS behind cover, 12" moves from cover to cover and grenade that nasty artilery...and then if the enemy has something left that isnt to cc, fetch it up, tie it down and BURN THE HERETIC! Other than that, Seras are just not worth it, esp not their spec pistols.

enfernux wrote:DS behind cover, 12" moves from cover to cover and grenade that nasty artilery...and then if the enemy has something left that isnt to cc, fetch it up, tie it down and BURN THE HERETIC! Other than that, Seras are just not worth it, esp not their spec pistols.

So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

on the main point of me being here:
could someone try and help me make a list, that isnt a 1500pt uriah-celestine, 2-3 domi based list? And some Tacs on the useage wouldnt be bad as well.
My main problems are what to and what to not in terms of use vs 'dexes and use in general. By my list i think it is in a no brain obvious trieing to not use standards, but the other hq just arent worth it or cant fit in the poinst specifide.
Against a few types i know how to play, because i play with them, but that isnt a general "survive all comers" thing - my choice are GEQ.


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pretre wrote:
So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

what you want to field them for AI blast weapons target?

enfernux wrote:on the main point of me being here:
could someone try and help me make a list, that isnt a 1500pt uriah-celestine, 2-3 domi based list? And some Tacs on the useage wouldnt be bad as well.

We can, but so far the Uriah/Celestine, 2-3 Doms list is the competitive one, so you would be sacrficing competitiveness for being different.

The only other list that I would try right now, if I was inclined would be a walking Kyrinov list.

Kyrinov - Battle Conclave
(At high points levels Canoness with command squad and 3xMM)
Repentia x 2
BSS x3 (Walking big squads)
Seraphim 0-3
Retributors x3
Add TL-MM to any squads you want as fire support with any points that are left.

Use a wave approach. Put a big squad of Sisters in front with Reps and Battle Conclave behind to dissuade people from assaulting you. Walk forward, keep Kyrinov in the middle of the mess so you're a huge wave of fearless 3+/6++ models.

It isn't my playstyle, but it is the other idea that I've had for a competitive list.

pretre wrote:So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

I agree. Yuck! I have my Seraphim behind a couple of Rhinos for moving cover at least for the first turn and then they jump where they need to hose'em down with fire and bolts. Its been fairly effectice. Not the killiest unit to be sure but I use it for its mobility and nifty faith ability.

if i want mobility, i'd just stick to my DE. And in our games, cover is not so effective, with the opponents being Eldar and IG, all G weapons.
and yeah, id rather go 3rd turn than to lose them in 1st or 2nd. Yuck, yeah. Work, yeah. Different tacs, yeah

Yeah, sorry. It was a Rhino, I just did a typo.

As for the cost benefit of Seras Vs. Doms Vs. Rets I did some math hammer for them on another thread and I think I'll transfer it over here as well.

First some control assumptions:
1) Assume 5 hits per template vs a marine squad
2) Assume only flamers hit
3) Assume NO transports

5 Dominions, 2 Flamers, 1 Combi flamer = 90 points
5 Retributors, 4 Heavy flamers = 145 points
5 Seraphim, 2 twin hand flamers =120 points

Doms = 15 hits
Rets = 20 hits
Sera = 20 hits

Doms = 11.25 wounds
Rets = 13.2 wounds
Sera = 11 wounds

Doms = 3.7 Dead MEQ
Rets = 5.75 Dead MEQ (Including roughly 2 Rends)
Sera = 3.65 Dead MEQ

Doms = 0.041 Dead MEQ per point
Rets = 0.040 Dead MEQ per point
Sera = 0.030 Dead MEQ per point

Well, after that examination it looks like Doms and Rets are roughly equal with Seraphim lagging behind. Now, Seraphim aren't as obviously disadvantaged as it appears on first glance.

Here's the advantages they have:
They don't need a transport, they get to move 12 and run without the added cost/ protection of an Immolator.

They have roughly a 21% chance of getting their 6++ save because of their re-roll (7-ish % more) AND double the chance of getting their Act of faith off for FREE.

(If Rets and Doms want that ability it costs them an extra 20 points per squad which brings their effectiveness down quiet considerably, roughly the same as the naked Seraphim 0.035 and 0.034 respectively)

The Rets and the Doms have to buy a Rhino/Immolator if they want to be used effectively, bringing their kill/cost ratio down even lower (Several points below that of the Seraphim) but gain considerable firepower range and protection so it becomes something of a moot point.

Doms have the ability to scout, gaining first turn kills and disruption or outflank, destroying hidden units or hard to get artillery pieces.

So, overall, they're pretty comparable when looked at from a purely mathematical perspective. At least Doms and Seraphim are, their increased mobility (Scout/Cheap jump units) gives them more flexibility than Retributors but the Rets a slightly more killy (and more sexy fun in my opinion)

on the rets i would never use heavy flamers. for those points id rather take an exorcist.
or aamof, 4 w HB can be more...killy. To use the HF, the rets would have to be very very close, meaning the enemy is just a fex inches away from assault range, or the rets move, in which case they cant fire. HB on the other hand a stationary 36" hail of bolts also capeable of rending. less kils/round, more rounds to fire, more kills, less points.
second, the hand flamers are s3, so you wound on a 5+ vs meq. 3.33
mybe our math is a bit different, but as i calc for my DE, and for that it works, but theres difference in math and math.
Next: a 5 lady sera squad is just to litle to do anything good for their points. Personally a favorite use for them in my ideals would be inferno and plasma pistol, hit the turets in the back then assault them - and hope you wont get an explode, so you can continue your job, safe from the other vehicles. But to do that, they need to survive AND give out a hail of krak grenades. For that, 10 mods are better, and 10 domi in a rhino w flamers and combi flamer is much cheeper. if i keep the seras "naked", then they are 40 points cheeper but w no shield in ther arses...i mean, faces - oops.

I like rets, my only problem is they cant be outfited w plasma cannons XD

in overall, i will not be useing seras in max 1500, but above one unite can be accounted for "naked"

enfernux wrote:on the rets i would never use heavy flamers. for those points id rather take an exorcist.
or aamof, 4 w HB can be more...killy. To use the HF, the rets would have to be very very close, meaning the enemy is just a fex inches away from assault range, or the rets move, in which case they cant fire.

The idea is to put them in an immo or rhino. And Heavy Flamers are assault so they can still fire.

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

Yeah, see this comment? Just went to a GW "big" tourney and got whacked because I listened to too many people on this forum saying everyone is running mech. (Except that everyone is NOT running mech, they are running quite a variety.)

sfshilo wrote:

pretre wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah i don't play competitive so most players at my group balk at the cost associated with buying transports so most tend to be elite infantry with a few heavy tanks. Perfect for disintegrator cannons. But, really, nobody takes D cannons? I would have thought they were the perfect marine killers and marines are so common. Also, not to throw a spanner in your grill, but with shadowfields you need to get within 6'' to shoot me with meltaguns+rapidfire bolters.

Yeah, I think that that's the difference. In most of the competitive events I see, you see a lot of mechanized armies so D's do not show up much. Shadowfields are a concern, but again those don't show up in a lot of the competitive DE lists I see (I see a lot more Flickers which concern me when a lot of my guns are only one shot and rely on their strength+ap1 to do the damage, not on volume).

Also, to be fair, we are talking about the competitive aspects of the list, meaning the use of this book/codex at competitive events (i.e. RTTs, GTs, etc).

Yeah, see this comment? Just went to a GW "big" tourney and got whacked because I listened to too many people on this forum saying everyone is running mech. (Except that everyone is NOT running mech, they are running quite a variety.)

You notice how I said 'most' in my posts above. Yeah... It isn't a bad assumption to think that your opponents will run Mech and won't take shadowfields, that's just the odds. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE is doing it, just the majority.

Also, it is important to make a Take All Comers (usually abbreviated TAC) list rather than a list focused on what you think you will see. My lists are built under the idea that they can face any list.

Just because you drew some foot lists doesn't mean that those were the most common type of list there or even that they were a significant percentage. Pairings always have been a big part of the game. A bad one can really screw you.

i second pretre.
i usually play against mech, but then a friend of mine had the idea of useing a foot dar list. Gave me quite a headache with the 2*10 wraithguard and conceal.
tau must mech its troops and pathfinders or they are dead, but 2-3 dtcs are the usuall i see in 1.5k. DE full papermech, eldar half/full mech usually.

this is the 50%+, the average, the usuall, the most you will see.

on the HF: true, but still to close for the lot of my taste, i only take the one flamer for the 10domi as a "in case of emergency, fry heretic" button.
on the rets: puting a squad in a rhino isnt my idea of useage. if i was to equip them w HFs, id do it in an immo w twin hf, disembark in cover of the vehicle and BUUUUUUUUUUURN!!! the chaos gods out of the unite under my flame whip. But i will still use HB Rets until i come to my senses

Keep in mind that HF's can Pen vehicles with rending as well.

Yeah, I took down a vandetta with the HF.

Also, as for the math on Seras, they get rerolls to wound which is why their wound number is so high

andrewm9 wrote:

pretre wrote:So minimum of turn 3 before you're actually doing anything useful? Yuck.

I agree. Yuck! I have my Seraphim behind a couple of Rhinos for moving cover at least for the first turn and then they jump where they need to hose'em down with fire and bolts. Its been fairly effectice. Not the killiest unit to be sure but I use it for its mobility and nifty faith ability.

I didn't realize this thread was still going! We've been talking Seraphim over in one of the Battle Report threads.

I don't deep strike them as a rule, but I love that they can do it. It's going to take the Seras a couple of turns to get close to the enemy anyway so it's not like you're losing crucial turns where they could be in the fight. What you're actually losing is precision, since when you deep strike you need a spot on the table that's open enough to keep you from mishaps.

So pretty much if I think it's more likely that they'd die trying to get across the table I'll hold them in reserve. It also helps to not have them on the table as the only non-mech target although that's a pretty minor concern.

yeah, takeing down a vendetta, vhats its cost again?? And its armor? And the chance of rending on it w 4 HF? C'mon, the meltas are there for that, and the heavy bolter does it for less pt and longer range. And the HB have more chance to rend vs vehicles - flamer is one shot, HB is 3, so 4 vs 12, x4 for rending from 36(!!!)" vs x1 from template range.
As for the math on the Seras, i took in to consideration the 2/6*1.5 mod for wounds. Or if it is to high, i can recalc it w 0.75, your call.
ime, not worth it. Flamer s4ap5 5 pt, hand s3ap6 10*2 pt. No thanks.

on the DS: yes, its just slightly harder, but they dont die that easy - shoot my reserve, i dare you


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@Celtic:
yeah, i took out a wraithguard w a BSS deployed from rhino, and? Big deal, can happen.

Grats on the overall win again. That's like 2 in a row now right? Careful, you might let the great SoB secret out of the bag, and the GK players will switch to SoB!