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My gaming group has made it very clear that a marine is a marine and as long as the weapons are correct, it can play for any codex. I have considered that once I paint up my Space Hulk terminators, picking up a Dark Angel codex and running them in a few games as Deathwing. Otherwise, I will probably never be able to use all of them at the same time in a game of 40k. I would genuinely have no issue with it.

Another thought is I would like to paint up a Raven guard army and use it as standard marines, but actually do some weathering where the paint is chipping away to reveal alpha legion colors underneath and also run as chaos at times. I heard that idea somewhere and if that person is reading this, massive props.

I got into this game with Dark Angels. I spent a year painting, modeling and playing a very occasional game. Then I played a Space Marine army at Gencon in 2010, and realized that GW had left the Dark Angels behind a while ago (unless you played Deathwing).

I bought the Space Marines codex and played my army in a number of ways - White Scars, Salamanders, nilla Marines. I liked the variety of play styles so much that I repainted my army in neutral scheme that could match either codex .

I'm fine with what you are playing as long as the rules are fair and the models represent what they are supposed to. I prefer that the paint scheme fit the models eventually - so if you really love the Stormraven and want to play Blood Angels more, some slight variations to your scheme would be appreciated.

The 40k Universe allows for tons of flexibility in terms of successor chapters, and you could eventually make a few simple changes to your scheme to represent that.

I'm laughing my arse off at this thread.

After all these pages, what I'm essentially getting from a bunch of posters here is that, for instance, I couldn't take a Space Wolves Pack box, paint them as red with Flesh-Tearers iconography, and use the Blood Angels codex to field a Flesh Tearers army with them. All because GW didn't sell those plastic models specifically for that purpose.

Also, evidently I can't field a Dark Angels army unless they are painted in the exact way and shades that GW examples are. If I want to field them black, like in the early days of Rogue Trader, I am disqualified from using their specific Codex. Because that is obviously tantamount to using Necrons to represent Orks.

Those are some truly rich stretches of logic.

Space Wolf Blood Claws have specific models (Space Wolves) available. They're not just generic marines with bolt pistols and chainswords.

Really? They sure used to be that exact thing, in regards to which GW models got used to represent them. What about every Space Wolf army that's ever been made when the only way to do so was to do exactly that? I'm in that group.... so I take it I can no longer field my army in current games, unless I re-buy all the new models to replace them? "Space Wolves" are just guys in grey power armor with black wolves on their shoulders that have special rules. And that's only if you paint the icons or use transfers.

While fully-painted, not a single figure of my Space Wolves has a transfer or free-handed icon to mark them as such, but they follow all the rules of the codex involving unit composition. In fact, they are all figures that were made to be 13th Company Space Wolves back in the Eye of Terror campaign.

To field the marine models (not the metal wolfen) as standard Space Wolves in current games, am I to believe that I can't use the new Codex: Space Wolves, because most of the models have various parts of the Chaos marines plastics involved in their making and that's not what they were made for?

Carnage43 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Anyone can codex hop all they want. But it is contemptible, low-brow and petty. And it always will be. The blue blood angels posted a page or two ago are a perfect example: What a trashy army!

haendas wrote:I could be wrong, but I think that adepticon policy is geared towards necrons 'counts as' undead orks using the ork codex or something like that

Which is absolutely no different to using ultramarines as blood angels

That's not hurtful at all. <sniff>

So, your opinion is that everything has to be 100% WYSIWYG and the proper paint scheme to use the rule book? What about successor chapters or home brew chapters? Not legal? What if your Grey Knights are chainmail silver instead of mithril? What if their guns are dark red instead of blood red? It seems like a person's intent is your "breaking point". If someone wants to use the Blood Angels codex for "Blood Angels successor chapter #214" then that's okay regardless of paint scheme, but if they want to use it because they like the rules, "What a trashy army!" is your response? How can you know a person's intent without them telling you? What if I didn't tell you my marines were Ultramarines and instead the "Cerulean Angels" successor of the Blood Angels and always have been. Is it okay now? Getting picky over paint schemes just gives more people reasons to not paint anything at all. I'd rather see green and blue Blood Angels or red Space Wolves then an army that's completely unpainted.

The line is drawn by GW at models, not paint. Period.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
Using Grey Knight or Blood Angel rules to play Ultramarines is, to me, no different to using Necron rules to play Orks. Yes, it is more easily identifiable what is supposed to be what in the first case, but it is still using the wrong rules.

Unfortunetly for you GW creators say its fine

Of course it is. And by extension, using any size-comparable models is also fine. Grots as eldar, nobs as terminators, rhinos as falcons, whatever you want is fair game. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.

Also a little weirded out that the 2 people that are annoying me in this thread are Kaldor and Draigo. I think I'm sensing a pattern.

This.

I stopped trying to plead anything with them because the 'rules' that GW has in place do not satisfy their 'rules' and thus it is pointless to keep bickering with them.

If the 'lore' was correct then SM models would be much larger, harder to kill, and every codex would have a bunch of options that they currently do not (though they would probably argue using a Salamander HQ with and Ultramarines HQ, though the Codex explains why this could happen, why can't that same logic be referenced when doing count-as armies, seems the same enough to me).

Fortunately the majority of the thread seems to agree that if it is WYSIWYG it is a go, which is fine with me.

Skylifter wrote:I don't like it. I'm not as hard-line on this any more as I once was, but I think the rules for each codex are written to represent the abilities of the chapters they are written for. Ultramarines don't use nemesis force halbereds, nor are they all psykers.

And Greyknights are supposed to fight daemons...

I don't think I have ever seen such a battle actually played. It seems GK now only fight Necrons and other marine chapters...

Redbeard wrote:Not at all. Let's get this out of the way first. GW is not going to send enforcers to your house or club and make sure you do things their way. You could play all of GWs games using cardboard chits, cut to the right base sizes. You could even play games with better rules, using cardboard chits

Most people don't want to do that. But, you could, and you could avoid paying GW for any miniatures in the process. GW isn't making anyone do anything.

There is something more going on here. It's as if using models adds some additional value to the game that cardboard chits don't have. What value is that? It's aesthetics.

You don't have to paint your models. You don't even need to prime them. I have seen people play the game with unpainted models before; i know it can be done. And yet, people do paint their models. Why would anyone go to this extra trouble? Again, it's the aesthetics. Miniature wargames aren't just about gaming, they're about the aesthetics.

You don't have to use the right models to play the game. You don't have to use the right colour schemes. But, in failing to do those things, you give up some of the aesthetic. Some of what makes miniature wargames what they are.

Exactly.

CT GAMER wrote:

Skylifter wrote:I don't like it. I'm not as hard-line on this any more as I once was, but I think the rules for each codex are written to represent the abilities of the chapters they are written for. Ultramarines don't use nemesis force halbereds, nor are they all psykers.

And Greyknights are supposed to fight daemons...

I don't think I have ever seen such a battle actually played. It seems GK now only fight Necrons and other marine chapters...

This. A demon player already knows he's screwed going up against them. I liked it better in 2nd ed when the only Grey Knight option was the elite terminator squad you could take in an Imperial army. If there were no demons present, they sat on the ship and never teleported in.

Also, as a chaos player who feels let down - nay, shall I say beaten down with a Nerf stick by the 5th ed chaos codex I love seeing players fielding their Night Lords and World Eaters using the Blood Angel codex or Iron Warriors with the SM codex

Quite enjoyed reading this thread, some people can really be a stick in the mud and need to cheer up.

Brotherjulian wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Skylifter wrote:I don't like it. I'm not as hard-line on this any more as I once was, but I think the rules for each codex are written to represent the abilities of the chapters they are written for. Ultramarines don't use nemesis force halbereds, nor are they all psykers.

And Greyknights are supposed to fight daemons...

I don't think I have ever seen such a battle actually played. It seems GK now only fight Necrons and other marine chapters...

This. A demon player already knows he's screwed going up against them. I liked it better in 2nd ed when the only Grey Knight option was the elite terminator squad you could take in an Imperial army. If there were no demons present, they sat on the ship and never teleported in.

Also, as a chaos player who feels let down - nay, shall I say beaten down with a Nerf stick by the 5th ed chaos codex I love seeing players fielding their Night Lords and World Eaters using the Blood Angel codex or Iron Warriors with the SM codex

Does kind of seem crazy that the one army GK are definitely spossed to fight is an army they would have some ridiculous chance of beating when compared to other armies.

I really wish the game was more balanced so no one would even feel the need to consider playing out of other books, but as it stands some armies are better than others, and some have cool toys that others do not.

@Redbeard

Actually I hate space marines, and if I did do an army (to get my little bro interested) it would be a very shooty army, based on Starship Troopers and Armor. The armor would be a camoflauge scheme, and look very martial and uniform, unlike the space wolves who look like vikings. To me the space wolves look stupid. But look better then blood angels, theyre about as useless as nipples on a breastplate...

The no imagination part comes from people saying "well ultras dont have the red thirst" Well, its not the red thirst, its a priest inspiring them for the emperor, making them fearless in battle.

I think Space Marines are getting all the focus in this thread, even from me. As a guy just getting back into the swing of things from 4th edition, I have a question that also puts the extremist views in this thread to the test for an army that's non-SM, just to stir the pot from a different perspective:

If I am using my newly-gifted Eldar ,models with the current 5th Eldar codex, is their any special rules based on which major Craftworld I am fielding, like the last "Craftworld Eldar" codex used to have? I'm just starting a Eldar army and am pondering backgrounds but don't have the new codex yet.

Because just like using Ultramarines paint jobs with the BA rules, I'm curious about opinions that if i field Saim-Hann that are blue, or if i paint black Iyanden they will "kill the game's background". Because that's the same thing as "painting red Space Wolves are like fielding orks as tyranids."

On WYSIWYG;

...The rule is that [such equipment] must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing

The WYSIWYG rule states only that weapons and wargear are inluded, no mention anywhere of iconography, insignia, skulls, pelts or anything else.

That is all.

As long as my opponents have no issue with me using my IG as Marines, or my DE as Orks, or my Orks as Necrons, then I have no problem letting my opponents use their marine chapter as another marine chapter.

AegisGrimm wrote:I think Space Marines are getting all the focus in this thread, even from me. As a guy just getting back into the swing of things from 4th edition, I have a question that also puts the extremist views in this thread to the test for an army that's non-SM, just to stir the pot from a different perspective:

If I am using my newly-gifted Eldar ,models with the current 5th Eldar codex, is their any special rules based on which major Craftworld I am fielding, like the last "Craftworld Eldar" codex used to have? I'm just starting a Eldar army and am pondering backgrounds but don't have the new codex yet.

Because just like using Ultramarines paint jobs with the BA rules, I'm curious about opinions that if i field Saim-Hann that are blue, or if i paint black Iyanden they will "kill the game's background". Because that's the same thing as "painting red Space Wolves are like fielding orks as tyranids."

I don't know anything about a Craftworld Edlar book, but the newest Imperial Armor (IA11: the Doom of Mymeara) has an army list for Eldar Corsairs. I would have no problem with you playing Eldar painted as one craftworld but using the Eldar Corsair list, so long as the weapons were WYSIWYG or have reasonable counts-as.

BuFFo wrote:As long as my opponents have no issue with me using my IG as Marines, or my DE as Orks, or my Orks as Necrons, then I have no problem letting my opponents use their marine chapter as another marine chapter.

The better analogy would be letting you use your mordians as catachans, or your evil sunz as bad moons. Which most people would have no problem with at all.

In what reality does something like painting up a pre-heresy World Eaters army and using the Blood Angels codex to represent their blood-thirstyness ever compare with plunking down Orks on the table as Necrons?

That's the hugest logic leap ever.

I keep hearing that "swapping codexes" is proxying, but I'm not sure how. If you are fielding a Space Wolves counts-as army, you show your army sheet to the other, and a squad on the table has all the Grey Hunter's wargear options and composition rules, they are obviously Grey Hunters. It doesn't matter if they are grey, green, or bright pink.

I think that the larger "issue" here is that the OP has said outright that he plays "Ultramarines". Often times, if you play a "GW" chapter, or at least one of the Big 4, you are always assumed to be playing a single book. I think that there would be far less issue with taking the BA, SW, BT or any other MEQ book with a chapter like, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, etc.

For instance, I play Iron Snakes (the chapter in Dan Abnett's Brothers of the Snake), and have gotten absolutely no flak for taking my army as either SW or vanilla marines. In the "lesser known" or DIY chapters, I think that there is greater leeway given, because over time, each player adapts his/her playstyle, and their tastes in models change, etc.

An earlier poster commented, or rather asked, about whether there was this sort of "limitation" on Eldar.. If it were me you were playing against there wouldnt be. I don't honestly know enough of the fluff to tell much of the difference in their colors... From what I understand in playing against them once, is that their various aspects have "assigned" colors, and its the aspects that alter the army, but I honestly wouldn't NOT play you because your Dark Reapers weren't black/white, or your Fire Dragons weren't orange, yellow and red, etc. Heck, I'd even be completely OK with you using those Eldar models as Dark Eldar, so long as we both could easily identify what each unit/model was and what it carried. The same goes with Marines in PA..

What if i want to field the 8yth company of Ultramarines, but I want to have a cool rule to represent that they are all assault marines and have a higher frequency of fielding bikes and land speeders. So I use the DA codex and all legal unit entries to have them hit the table with the ravenwing rules. I tell my opponent as such.

As for models being used 'out of context"... What about my "Eldar Corsairs" who I want to look evil. So for instance, my Swooping Hawks are made from DE Scourges and are all equipped like the figure on the left:



Am I honestly to believe that I just broke the entire theme of the 40K universe? I'm sorry to burst any bubbles, but a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest model painted in Ultramarines colors in a vanilla codex army is a Ultramarines Apothecary.

AegisGrimm wrote:What if i want to field the 8yth company of Ultramarines, but I want to have a cool rule to represent that they are all assault marines and have a higher frequency of fielding bikes and land speeders. So I use the DA codex and all legal unit entries to have them hit the table with the ravenwing rules. I tell my opponent as such.

As for models being used 'out of context"... What about my "Eldar Corsairs" who I want to look evil. So for instance, my Swooping Hawks are made from DE Scourges and are all equipped like the figure on the left:



Am I honestly to believe that I just broke the entire theme of the 40K universe? I'm sorry to burst any bubbles, but a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest model painted in Ultramarines colors in a vanilla codex army is a Ultramarines Apothecary.

Both examples you have here, I personally would be completely cool with...

AegisGrimm wrote:What if i want to field the 8yth company of Ultramarines, but I want to have a cool rule to represent that they are all assault marines and have a higher frequency of fielding bikes and land speeders. So I use the DA codex and all legal unit entries to have them hit the table with the ravenwing rules. I tell my opponent as such.

Well, to be fair...
The 8th Company of Ultramarines isn't really fielded en masse. They, like many other Loyalist Chapters, break their non-standard Companies up and field them as support elements for the "primary" Companies.

Someone wanting to use a White Scars force under the Ravenwing rules? I'd be okay with that, provided he's not fielding the Master of the Ravenwing on a Jetbike.
Someone who comes up with some kind of campaign oriented reason for the 8th Company to be fielding its bikes and Land Speeders? Again--I'd be okay with that if there's no Jetbike Master.

But a guy who just randomly shows up and says "My Ultramarine Bikers are Ravenwing"? That's strange, and it makes me think he might have an ulterior motive.

As for models being used 'out of context"... What about my "Eldar Corsairs" who I want to look evil. So for instance, my Swooping Hawks are made from DE Scourges and are all equipped like the figure on the left:



Am I honestly to believe that I just broke the entire theme of the 40K universe? I'm sorry to burst any bubbles, but a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest model painted in Ultramarines colors in a vanilla codex army is a Ultramarines Apothecary.

No, but to many people it will seem quite lazy.

BuFFo wrote:As long as my opponents have no issue with me using my IG as Marines, or my DE as Orks, or my Orks as Necrons, then I have no problem letting my opponents use their marine chapter as another marine chapter.

Because painting a marine Black, Blue, Pink, baby-poop-green, and so on makes him less of a marine right? Because totally painting an Ork Ultramarines Blue means he looks like a marine and has the WYSIWYG weapons right?

*sarcasm* Thanks for the input.

GreatGunz wrote:

BuFFo wrote:As long as my opponents have no issue with me using my IG as Marines, or my DE as Orks, or my Orks as Necrons, then I have no problem letting my opponents use their marine chapter as another marine chapter.

The better analogy would be letting you use your mordians as catachans, or your evil sunz as bad moons. Which most people would have no problem with at all.

Agreed.

The 8th Company of Ultramarines isn't really fielded en masse. They, like many other Loyalist Chapters, break their non-standard Companies up and field them as support elements for the "primary" Companies.

Tue, but that was the only comparison I could quickly provide. Although in the 2nd edition codex they are described as being used in situations where a fast assault and hand-to-hand fighting is needed, and a game could easily represent their assault to one side of a much bigger battle-line of normal battle Companies.

Now, the Ravenwing-as-White Scars is spot-on though. Good example!

As for the 'lazy' Scourges,I would just grin;

I also use old-style DE jetbikes with Shuriken catapults added in place of the splinter rifles, converted new-Wyches as 'Harlequins', and Venom models with mounted Craftworld Eldar weapons as 'Vipers' alongside my more normal Wraithlords/guard, Eldar tanks and Eldar troopers, who have spikes and blades added to taste.

AegisGrimm wrote:What if i want to field the 8yth company of Ultramarines, but I want to have a cool rule to represent that they are all assault marines and have a higher frequency of fielding bikes and land speeders. So I use the DA codex and all legal unit entries to have them hit the table with the ravenwing rules. I tell my opponent as such.

As for models being used 'out of context"... What about my "Eldar Corsairs" who I want to look evil. So for instance, my Swooping Hawks are made from DE Scourges and are all equipped like the figure on the left:



Am I honestly to believe that I just broke the entire theme of the 40K universe? I'm sorry to burst any bubbles, but a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest model painted in Ultramarines colors in a vanilla codex army is a Ultramarines Apothecary.

I'd be fine with both, so long as for the DE pieces you put an effort to make them look like your army. I immediately bought a Grey Knights kit when it came out because the models looked cool and would make an awesome Honour Guard. They look like marines, weapons were correct for what I converted and built, they just have more ornate iconography which seemed to make sense with where I was going with my Honour Guard groups.

It's not that I made the Scourges look like the other Eldar-it's that I made the other Craftworld Eldar stuff look like them.

But like a bright pink grey hunters squad, they are the only thing in my Eldar army that uses the Swooping Hawks wargear and entry(and are shown to the opponent as such), so they are obviously swooping hawks. The guns are 'technically wrong', as they are still the splinter rifles from the Scourge sprue and not actual Eldar lasblaster models, but it's not like swapping a lasgun for a shoota, because if you see a squad of Eldar with wings on their backs next to a Wave Sperpent and a Wraithlord and the rest of an Eldar army, they are probably Swooping Hawks with Lasblasters.

AegisGrimm wrote:It's not that I made the Scourges look like the other Eldar-it's that I made the other Craftworld Eldar stuff look like them.

But like a bright pink grey hunters squad, they are the only thing in my Eldar army that uses the Swooping Hawks wargear and entry(and are shown to the opponent as such), so they are obviously swooping hawks. The guns are 'technically wrong', as they are still the splinter rifles from the Scourge sprue and not actual Eldar lasblaster models, but it's not like swapping a lasgun for a shoota, because if you see a squad of Eldar with wings on their backs next to a Wave Sperpent and a Wraithlord and the rest of an Eldar army, they are probably Swooping Hawks with Lasblasters.

Still assuming your army as a whole looks like a cohesive entity.

Me personally, if the weapons look like what they are supposed to be I'd be fine with it, the problem I think would be tacking a big jump "Hey this rocket launcher is a Lascannon." Bit of a stretch (though I've let people do that).

I can see where others would likely be fine with the models but not the weapon though.

If it was possible, I would think about it. But as for cutting up Finecast or old metal models just for a gun they're holding...

The common opinion it that since no other models are holding identical splinter rifles but having them count as something else, it's kosher.

BuFFo wrote:As long as my opponents have no issue with me using my IG as Marines, or my DE as Orks, or my Orks as Necrons, then I have no problem letting my opponents use their marine chapter as another marine chapter.

As long as the models are WYSIWYG I'll be happy to play against any of the above examples.

AegisGrimm wrote:If it was possible, I would think about it. But as for cutting up Finecast or old metal models just for a gun they're holding...

The common opinion it that since no other models are holding identical splinter rifles but having them count as something else, it's kosher.

Like I said, I really wouldn't care they seem fine to me (or close enough anyways) and so long as the army looks cohesive to some degree I'd be happy to play against it.

Go with my theory on the whole subject. You bring an ultramarine army and are using blood angels rules. And some one says that you can't do that, punch them int he throat and find some one else to play. Colors are colors. I poke fun at a guy who uses the dark angels marines as blood angels. I only poke fun and then play him. I have a yellow plague marine army, Does that mean that they are actually imperial fists? Like every one else as said before, a marine is a marine and color doesn't matter. Old models are still usable, and under What you see is what you get, You have to follow your groups guide lines. I haven't run into a group yet that has told me i had to glue grenades on my models or i had to show my marines with a bolter and a bolt pistol. Most times its if they aren't equipped with standard wargear you model it. Just saying that a space wolf army has to look like every other space wolf army is saying that you want the hobby to die and want gw to come out with pre painted miniatures. Personally i like my army to look different than other peoples. Its what makes half the game fun. Using one marine for different marine codices, is and should always remain fine to do. Just don't use marines as sisters of battle... Nothing against the models... Just seems a little wrong and makes me wonder what the marines are wearing under their armor.

There shouldn't really be a contest for marines painted one color being used for another chapter.

It's true that non-marine armies don't have as much of a luxury for experimenting with other codeci.

If the color scheme matters so much then unless you paint the models the exact same hue of the appropriate codex affiliated with them you can't field them. It would be very difficult to get the hues that exact,

And it's more fun to experiment with other armies, trying new tactics and adapting.

But there are other armies I wouldn't mind substitutions for.
Dark Eldar-Craftworld Eldar-Corsairs
All space marines-chaos space marines
Imperial Guard-to Tau-some Some unit substitutions