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2012/04/05 18:41:07
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
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2012/04/05 18:54:41
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Except that have taken valuable data on necrons, that group in particular back to the chapter. They have been given time to study weakness from both fights and rebuild their strength. Unlike the Necrons the SM's gear does not self repair, they can and do run out of ammo, armor can and does fail. Men can and do suffer injuries that effect them. Once you have been though two major fights both sides are seriously depleted. However of the two the martins will be in worse shape due to attrition on wargear. Deciding to keep fighting would have been "brave" but foolish and a bad call that wasted men. Even if they could have taken the Necrons, they could not have held what they took with what little remained. so yes, they might have won, but they also might have lost and most likely would have lost.
Engine of War wrote:Duct Tape! the Ommnisiahs blessed bindings!
2012/04/05 18:56:30
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Dante hasn't lived for 1000+ years by making stupid decisions.
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2012/04/05 18:58:10
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Yes. But the IoM isn't the Tau Empire. It's fractious, inconsistent, instable, fraying at the edges and corrupting from within. Different factions pursue their own agenda's, most of all the powerful monastic and independent Space Marine Chapters. And the super human soldiers bred for nothing but war may, on occasion, feel more kinship with alien threats likewise bred (or build) for nothing but war than the humans they've been created to protect many, many thousand years before; especially those secretly harboring a damning flaw that would cast them from this very Empire were it know. It's a dystopian setting often characterized by the iconic term of "GrimDark". It's very essence is that it precisely isn't working squeaky, cleanly to some 10.000 business plan like some Galactic Mitt Romney Empire.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Except that have taken valuable data on necrons, that group in particular back to the chapter. They have been given time to study weakness from both fights and rebuild their strength. Unlike the Necrons the SM's gear does not self repair, they can and do run out of ammo, armor can and does fail. Men can and do suffer injuries that effect them. Once you have been though two major fights both sides are seriously depleted. However of the two the martins will be in worse shape due to attrition on wargear. Deciding to keep fighting would have been "brave" but foolish and a bad call that wasted men. Even if they could have taken the Necrons, they could not have held what they took with what little remained. so yes, they might have won, but they also might have lost and most likely would have lost.
How can anyone surmise that they most likely would have lost? Or that they couldn't hold their ground if they won? All it says, is that both sides were winded, and victory wasn't assured......that is ALL it says. It doesn't say that the SM were at a disadvantage in numbers, or firepower, or anything like that. So to say that the SM would probably have lost is speculation with no foundation to back it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:Dante hasn't lived for 1000+ years by making stupid decisions.
Apparently he's lived for 1000+ years because he runs away from fights
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/05 19:02:41
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2012/04/05 19:06:58
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.
Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.
But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.
Not if the force is cut apart with chainswords and broken down for scrap metal.
2 words.....
1: Phase
2: Out
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2012/04/05 19:11:31
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
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2012/04/05 20:13:22
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Necrons still phase out in the fluff of the new codex......at least I'm 99% sure they do, haven't read that book in a while, either way, cutting it up in little pieces will only delay them from getting back up page 20 of the new codex, theirs a story about a bunch of orks that run into some necrons that come from under the water, the warboss noticed they they just kept getting back up, so he attempted to chop them up into little pieces.....but they still got back up.
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2012/04/05 21:55:56
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
bombboy1252 wrote:Necrons still phase out in the fluff of the new codex......at least I'm 99% sure they do, haven't read that book in a while, either way, cutting it up in little pieces will only delay them from getting back up page 20 of the new codex, theirs a story about a bunch of orks that run into some necrons that come from under the water, the warboss noticed they they just kept getting back up, so he attempted to chop them up into little pieces.....but they still got back up.
Actually, that's not what happens in that story.
After the part about him smashing them into tiny bits, the necrons actually start to fail to regenerate. And then he gets blown up by a monolith.
And I'm not sure that they do phase out anymore...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/05 21:56:30
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2012/04/05 22:05:25
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
They do. The mechanics of it (table-top) are slightly different than before, making them slightly less universally-immortal, but with Res Orbs and other bits of wargear, individual squads/all Necrons within X range of specific units and so forth, might be more frequently resurrecting than previously.
Fluff-wise? Still immortal robots that stand up in green flames and get back to the business of being Terminators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/05 22:08:21
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2012/04/05 22:06:24
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
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2012/04/05 22:09:36
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
If the sentence would have ended after "...victory over the other" we could continue to debate this. Allying with Xeno Scum aside, the notion that Blood Angels would actually be BOTHERED by turning on their allies of convenienceis foul. Also, in the SW example given, the Eldar were actually returning the bodies and battle armor of their fallen brothers. That buys you enough time to collect your own dead and GTFO the planet. That makes enough sense to me. The Necrons and BA just opt to stop fighting, given their depleted state. Sure, i buy that. But for them to feel BAD about actually turning on the enemy and finishing the fight? Ridiculous.
The fact that necrons view other life in the galaxy with anything other than utter contempt is my real problem with the new book. Oh sure, people will continue to parrot why the newcron fluff is better because it is less "one dimensional," etc etc, but there are a number of ways to make the Newcron fluff an exploration of the old without a total retcon. For instance: Only one or two Tombworlds were coming on line with the last book. Those Warriors awakened were mostly controlled by automation, more of a defense response than any real coherant strategy. As higher and higher level Lords were awoken (in response to the data gathered by the automated systems) more worlds were roused for the ancient Ctan's thirst for life. The new characters and slightly larger autonomy can be explained by those Lords actually belonging to other C'tan devoured by the Nightbringer and others. When their Ctan was destroyed, they went offline, and after all this time they have regained their autonomy. And now we can start bringing in the other two gods. Was the idea of ACTUAL gods being on the field silly? Yes. Would it make more sense if they were merely representations of their power in the form of imbued metal? Yup. Already seen it. Easy enough to explain that people were merely mistaken about what they saw, rather than change everything. What's the difference? Explanation. A single throw away line can patch many a plot hole. And by hanging a lampshade on a plot hole you can make it more mysterious.
Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!
Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
2012/04/05 22:52:14
Subject: Re:Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
This remains unconvincing.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2012/04/05 22:55:18
Subject: Re:Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
DarknessEternal wrote:So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
This remains unconvincing.
That post tells me that you haven't read the whole thread.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
2012/04/05 23:24:47
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
If the sentence would have ended after "...victory over the other" we could continue to debate this. Allying with Xeno Scum aside, the notion that Blood Angels would actually be BOTHERED by turning on their allies of convenienceis foul. Also, in the SW example given, the Eldar were actually returning the bodies and battle armor of their fallen brothers. That buys you enough time to collect your own dead and GTFO the planet. That makes enough sense to me. The Necrons and BA just opt to stop fighting, given their depleted state. Sure, i buy that. But for them to feel BAD about actually turning on the enemy and finishing the fight? Ridiculous...
The mentioned Space wolf example also failed to note that a single stray mistranslation during the parley over parting gifts caused tempers to flair and insults followed. Soon, the Space Wolves & the Eldar were fighting eachother AND the orks as well. The three way war ment a total war that devastated the entire sector.
Besides, to me the real problem with the BA/'cron alliance was that the Tyranids showed up in the first place! In both the previous Necron & Tyranid backgrounds, it's been explicitly mentioned that the Tyranids actively avoid Necron Tomb Worlds due to the sheer lack of almost any kind of biological matter.
The 'nids aren't going to expend the resources to drive off an entire Tomb World of necrons, just to eat up perhaps a company or two of Space Marines at most.
2012/04/05 23:29:11
Subject: Re:Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
DarknessEternal wrote:So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
This remains unconvincing.
For those of you that Tl;dr
Basically It's his rather poor fluff writing skills and inabilty to externally balance the codecies with the external rulebook. (and for breakng fantasy 7th ed thank you O spirttual liege)
Spoiler:
Matthew Ward (more commonly known as Matt Ward and less commonly known as "dickface") is your Spiritual Liege the fething devil a writer an Ultrasmurf fanboy working for GW .
There are few things so capable of inflicting apocalyptic rage in the 40k community at large than this man, and its important to understand why. Almost any designer worth his salt at Games Workshop will be hated by somebody for something, and every writer's fluff will contradict somebody else's sacred vision of universe. Gav Thorpe will never be forgiven for Codex: Chaos Marines, Cruddance will forever be loathed by Tyranid players world wide, C.S. Goto will always be synonymous with pooping on a typewriter. But nobody, nobody, in Games Workshop will ever be so universally reviled as Matthew Ward.
*snip*
Hating Matt Ward on /tg/ is almost so universal it's painful these days. Although his fluff writing skills are beyond terrible, he has been improving as far as writing balanced codices go (arguably). So one must ask, why all the unfettered rage? Can't /tg/ just ignore his fluff and play the game for what it is? Why not just make up your own fluff and ignore the guy?
*snip*
Matt Ward takes those elements away from the player. The biggest rage-inducing codex he has made thus far is the Ultramarines codex, which explicitly stated that all chapters, excluding a few "aberrants", behave and think in exactly the same manner as his army – Ultramarines, his chosen faction. He spelled out the organization patterns, the ideologies, who they revere and why, and then proceeded to tell the community at large that if they don't do it that way, then they're making their army wrong.
*snip*
The biggest offender of Matt's “tell not show” policy is Kaldor Draigo, the Grey Knights' supreme grand master, whose main personality trait is “badass”. Without rhyme, reason, or feasible explanation, Draigo simply exists as this whirlwind of enemy-destroying fiction in his codex. He pops in and out of the Warp, wrecking everything, everywhere, without so much a minute of exposition or explanation. Draigo is a concept – a meaningless one without any emotional impact. He's not a person or anything to which the average man can relate. Ward has simply declared him the best ever, and he has done so in canon, so it is so.
So Ward is hated for these among other reasons. He yanks the floorboards out from underneath your army, telling you that you're playing the game wrong and giving your army the wrong characteristics, and then shoves a handful of nothing against your chest, insisting that, yes, this is what you've been missing all along. He's that jerk that leans over your shoulder, breathing heavily and telling you where to move your guys. He's that sweaty donkey-cave that cheats on his dice rolls because he's not there to drink beer and chat with you. He's that complete moron in the room that everyone pegs as a sucker, and he's the only one who doesn't realize he's not a genius. Matt Ward is that guy. Yes, that guy.
*snip*
Spoiler:
There is a disturbing tendency in Matt Ward's works to have the Sisters of Battle get horribly butchered in roughly 70% of the fluff that Ward has thus far written. Whilst the penultimate example is the Khornate Knights incident, there's at least half-a-dozen works in official canon since the release of the new edition rulebook where the Sisters get horrifically butchered or worse. Virtually the entire Sisters of Battle army was retconned out of existence by the omission of two paragraphs of text in the fifth-edition rulebook, and there are multiple cases of the sisters being corrupted, destroyed, and/or massacred. All of this has led many to ask uncomfortable questions regarding Ward's sexual deviancy that nobody really wants the answers to, since he really, really seems to like him some sexist snuff.
Nom
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/04/06 00:06:09
2012/04/06 00:02:23
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
The funny thing about the idea that he loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooves Ultramarines is that Ward's first army(as in: the one which was shown to be "his" during a White Dwarf battle report where he played against Jervis' Ultramarines. This was in the issue, mind you, where the current plastic Terminator kit was unveiled)--and the only one which GW has actually showcased parts of(notably a few Cryptek conversions)--is Necrons.
2012/04/06 00:54:30
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Henners91 wrote:Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado.
You guys are no longer allowed to be mad at Mat Ward.
bmoleski wrote:Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
bmoleski wrote:How can anyone surmise that they most likely would have lost? Or that they couldn't hold their ground if they won? All it says, is that both sides were winded, and victory wasn't assured......that is ALL it says. It doesn't say that the SM were at a disadvantage in numbers, or firepower, or anything like that. So to say that the SM would probably have lost is speculation with no foundation to back it up.
No one can assume anything.
Thats rather the point.
The Necrons and Blood Angels had previously fought each other to a standstill. If, after beating up the Tyranids the balance of power has shifted even a tiny amount then the Blood Angels will lose. Perhaps drastically. And there is no way to know if or how much the balance on power has shifted. To simply resume the attack as if nothing had happened would be the mark of a truly foolish leader. To resume the attack would be to bet the lives of all Astartes under your command on a coin toss.
Astartes are worth more than that. So they withdraw. It makes perfect sense.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/04/06 02:29:26
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Kaldor wrote: The Necrons and Blood Angels had previously fought each other to a standstill. If, after beating up the Tyranids the balance of power has shifted even a tiny amount then the Blood Angels will lose. Perhaps drastically. And there is no way to know if or how much the balance on power has shifted. To simply resume the attack as if nothing had happened would be the mark of a truly foolish leader. To resume the attack would be to bet the lives of all Astartes under your command on a coin toss.
Astartes are worth more than that. So they withdraw. It makes perfect sense.
Wait lemme get your logic straight here:
1) The battle is raging with no clear victor.
2) The battle is interrupted and former nemeses become allies.
3) After they're allies, the balance of power may have shifted.
4) Because it might have shifted, it's possible it shifted in the Necron's favor.
5) Because of fog of war, you can't ever be sure if it shifted in their favor, or even whether or not it shifted at all 6) Therefore, retreat.
That doesn't make sense. Marine's don't withdraw because it's possible that the battle may have turned against them but you can't even tell if it changed at all!
That's dumb.
I'm sure if the defenders of Terra had been like "Well, let's retreat, it's possible, though I can't tell, that this battle may going against us" then the Horus Heresy would've ended very differently.
2012/04/06 02:35:29
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sure if the defenders of Terra had been like "Well, let's retreat, it's possible, though I can't tell, that this battle may going against us" then the Horus Heresy would've ended very differently
The future of humanity =/= a small unimportant battle in space.
The birthplace of humanity is probably the only place every human would fight to the death to defend irrelavant of the odds.
Nom
2012/04/06 02:53:18
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Unit1126PLL wrote:1) The battle is raging with no clear victor.
2) The battle is interrupted and former nemeses become allies.
3) After they're allies, the balance of power may have shifted.
4) Because it might have shifted, it's possible it shifted in the Necron's favor.
5) Because of fog of war, you can't ever be sure if it shifted in their favor, or even whether or not it shifted at all 6) Therefore, retreat.
Yes. It's the only intelligent and logical thing to do. Old intelligence regarding the Necron forces is now invalidated and there is no way to gather new intelligence. The Necrons may have fared better than the Blood Angels, and they may have fared worse. It's a 50/50.
You do NOT, EVER risk the lives of soldiers, especially soldiers as valuable and limited as Astartes, on a 50/50 gamble unless you absolutely have to. Certainly not for a prize so small.
There are only ~1,000,000 Astartes in the galaxy. Thats roughly one for every planet in the Imperium. You don't throw away the lives of such valuable soldiers for nothing. You withdraw, gather new intelligence, regroup, and strike when the odds are stacked in your favour.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
2012/04/06 03:08:04
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
I think people hate the Blood Angel thing is because they dont want to change their opinions on it. When if first game out it was HORRIBLE
What happened? New Necron codex. With the new codex it actually makes perfect sense. Before the problem was the Necrons, a force determined to remove all life and are robots, allied with a lifeform and than let the lifeform leave after the battle.
In the new codex, it actually makes sense because the goals of the Necrons are different. This new fluff is okay.
That does not mean the Grey Knights or Ultramarines stuff is okay, Im just saying the Blood Angel and Necron isnt as bad as it once was. Its actually okay now
My few cents on the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality.
And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.
My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.
A smarter option would have been to go with Blood Axe Orks. They have been known to fight for the Imperium if given the right incentive, they have some sort of honor code when challenged, and Dante and crew can respect their strength and such.
But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.
"Get off my lawn Astartes! And put that Garden Squat where you found it! I know it was you you pesky mortals! *Shakes boney old metalic fist menacingly*"
"It happened. This is a different hour. A later hour. Time never turns back. What we failed to say remains unsaid. What we failed to do remains undone. But there is always... revenge. In the Emperor's name." - Jaq Draco
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!" - In Exterminatus Extremis
I believe that GW's attempt to copyright the design of the human skull ended up with God settling out of court. - Anon
2012/04/06 04:19:02
Subject: Re:Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Luke_Prowler wrote:Can we move on from the NecronxBlood Angel thing and focus on something else?
Like Blood Tide from the GK codex. That's always a fun one
Why? Irrational and immature hatred is the only thing this thread is about.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2012/04/06 05:13:44
Subject: Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
The Blood Angel + Necron fist bump is only my personal reason for hating Matt Ward's fluff. Seems like a lot of people have different grudges for equally valid reasons, so let's give the BA/'cron beef a rest for a bit while other people take turns airing theirs.
DT:70-S+++G++MB-IPw40k93#+++D++A+++/wWD001R+++T(T)DM+ 10k 5k
- A sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the is going on.
- An ordnance specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
2012/04/06 05:34:49
Subject: Re:Ok I have to ask, Why the Matt Ward hate?
Luke_Prowler wrote:Can we move on from the NecronxBlood Angel thing and focus on something else?
Like Blood Tide from the GK codex. That's always a fun one
Well and truly flogged the grey knights and that particular dead horse.
Nom
There isn't a single argument in this thread that hasn't been done a thousand times over, so we're already up to our knees in glue. Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
2000pts 
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Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
10k 
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is going on.