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Theres no rule for magic replacement.

Nor does ZWC say remove from play. it only says replaced.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Nor does ZWC say remove from play. it only says replaced.

I'm rubber and you're glue!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

don_mondo wrote:OK, there's a model on the table. Is it St Celestine or is it a squig? If it's not St Celestine, she's been removed and cues MI.

Has no been removed from play. She has been replaced from play.

If she's no longer in play, then by definition she's been removed from play - wether you put some other model on the table in her place or not.

Your inferring that ZWC RFPs

Please state rules back what your saying up.

Please back up your argument with more than just well since it says replace they mean remove then replace.

cause to my knowledge RFP occurs explicitly by the wargear/power used. RFPaaC is death due to shooting dangerous terrain,CC attacks etc.

so where is permission to place ST.c counter when she is Replaced by a squig

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Your inferring that ZWC RFPs

Please state rules back what your saying up.

Please back up your argument with more than just well since it says replace they mean remove then replace.

cause to my knowledge RFP occurs explicitly by the wargear/power used. RFPaaC is death due to shooting dangerous terrain,CC attacks etc.

so where is permission to place ST.c counter when she is Replaced by a squig

Plain English. She is no longer in play, therefore she was _______ from play.

Fill in the blank.

replaced

That English no work guds.

ok so where does it say Explicitly RFP in Zwc.

plain English aside she is replaced.

or since it does not we have to go by what the rule says. hence following the rules. not replacing them with rules that are not part of the wording of the ZWC

Put the squig on the table next to St. C. Now slide it sideways, pushing St. C out of the way until the Squig is in the space she was. Now take St. C off the table.

She was removed after the Squig had appeared which means that she became a squig before being removed from the table. Therefore she uses the rules for the Squig and doesn't get MI.

Alternatively do the Indiana Jones Switch from the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Hey, does anyone care that celestine technically could come back for each time she died in the game, and that she gets an additional D3 wounds each time? You even have a better chance because you roll a 4+ for each counter.

Anyway, on the zogwart mess. GW already made a ruling. Why? Because SOB OP!!!!

Q: If a model with the Reanimation Protocol special
rule is replaced by another model, for example it is
turned into a Chaos Spawn or replaced by Trazyn the
Infinite, do you place a reanimation protocol or everliving
counter next to the unit? (p29)
A: No.

Reanimation Protocol uses "removed as a casualty" as well, so GW definitely thinks replacement effects are a different thing. Hell, the two examples from the quote even remove things "as a casualty."

Note that this is an implied ruling, but GW does these all the time, so we should use it anyway.

nevermind

I could play it either way. But that faq up there seems pretty explicit.

I mean, if I get a kill point every time I turn the Saint into a squig and kill it then hey, all the better.

Its really silly. How often is this ever going to happen?

You dont get a kill point that is the premise.

tuning any ic into a squig does not give you a KP. killing the squig however does.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:You dont get a kill point that is the premise.

tuning any ic into a squig does not give you a KP. killing the squig however does.

Notice in my above post how I clearly stated that I was killing the squig.

If you're saying that the premise is that St Celestine actually comes back before the squig can be killed because of her Miraculous whatnot, then we have a problem.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:ok so where does it say Explicitly RFP in Zwc.

plain English aside she is replaced.

or since it does not we have to go by what the rule says. hence following the rules. not replacing them with rules that are not part of the wording of the ZWC

The Warhammer40k rules are not a keyworded ruleset, even less so the ork codex, so your argument is all but irrelevant.

Can someone give exact quotes of both Celestines MI and Reanimation Protocols? If the wording is identical, we've got an answer in the Necron FAQ. If not... well, 'round we go!

If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase.

If a model with [Ever-Living] is removed as a casualty...

Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter...

Now just to add fuel to the fire.
So follow me if you would...
1. Necrons can't come back from being turned into a squig.
2. Many people (not me though) draw that everliving works against any and all RFP abilities bar being destroyed in the cases the BRB gives that destroy a unit.
3. There are cases where even st C can't come back on the board, all those destroyed things in the rulebook.
4. Zogwarts wording is clear that your model is replaced not removed or killed.

So, either the little pain in the ass dies due to the reason why necrons can't unsquig as we draw a parallel between everliving and MI. This I don't fully back but anyone that uses the MI precident to get out of jaws and any RFP vs RFPaaC crap has to swallow it.

On the other hand, if you go by the rules of MI it is when she is removed as a casualty and (due to the FAQ) RFP, that she gets to make her rolls after that but raw limits her abilities to cases when she would be taken off the board. The issue over destroyed, rfp and rfpaac is that they issue KP's to the opponent. When you get squigged you are just stuck with your IC being totally gak for the rest of the game. It isn't dead or anything like it.
While you do need to remove the physical model of St C to put down the squig, the character hasn't died she is just a squig now. I look at this like any of the psyker powers or special powers that modify statlines such as the sanguinor and dante. The target isn't dead just altered.

Kitzz wrote:If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase.

If a model with [Ever-Living] is removed as a casualty...

Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter...

For Celestine, you need to add her FAQ:

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

To use your Indiana Jones analogy, did he remove the idol as he replaced it with the bag of sand? Why yes, he did. Do you remove the Celestine to replace it with a squig? Why yes, you do. Again, bottom line. If Celestine is not in play (and she's not, the squig is), then she gets MI. Really, it is that simple. Not sure how this has gone 5 pages.

But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

Deep Strike I think I agree with you. Course, it would be silly to not start her on the table, IMO. But that's beside the point and a different discussion. We're talking about squigging her, right?

Tp which...... No, she was REPLACED by a squig, ie you had to REMOVE the Celestine model and put something else (the squig) in her place. Celestine has been what? Removed. Hence, MI.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

She was never on the table, so never got removed from the table, so no, she doesn't come back from a deep strike mishap.
Is the squig named St. Celestine?

This rule doesn't remove models it replaces them, destroyed is there to show that there are times when she doesn't come back despite being removed. Similar to necrons not coming back from everything. Since I just got ninja'd what happens if she is in a squad and they get hit with a sweeping advance?

Specificly what stops your model being replaced or more importantly it's profile and rules being changed, cos the second it is replaced MI is not an option?

To be very clear JOTWW is an attack that Removes a model from play and the saint can dodge that all well and good but where in Zogwarts curse is the word removed?

rigeld2 wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

She was never on the table, so never got removed from the table, so no, she doesn't come back from a deep strike mishap.
Is the squig named St. Celestine?

Yes. The whole power is that she is turned in to a squig. Not that she is killed and a squig appears in her place. That is why the squig is under the control of the opposing player rather than the ork player and why the ork player dose not get a KP for it.

I would say the question should come when the squig St. Celestine is killed.

No, it's named "Squig".
And no one is saying the Squig isn't placed. There's just a counter for St. C as well.

She 100% gets MI.

She gains her MI from any ability that removes her from the game. This doesn’t mean that it has to completely and decisively use the word remove. It just means that she is no longer in play (this is why units aren’t dead when they enter transports or buildings as they are still in play/game).

Zogworts ability says replace the model. Replace is the act of swapping two things around.

Zogworts ability doesn’t say the model looses its abilities it says "the target model is replaced with an angry squig. It has the profile below and no wargear or abilities" she has been removed from play and swapped with an ability void squig, she retains all her abilities and stats albeit she is no longer in play (Once again pay close attention to the fact we are SWAPPING models not transforming them).

So after she has been squiggled by him ask these questions.

Is she a squig?
The answer is NO as you replaced her with a squig (remember what replace means, if you don’t than dictionary it, replace does 100% not mean polymorph or transform, SHE IS NOT THE SQUIG)

Is she on the board?
No

Is she in play?
No (She was replaced with a squig)

Was she removed from the game?
Yes replacing is the act of removing something and inserting something else. Also remove from play doesn’t have to 100% say remove it just means is no longer in play (see above question)

Doesn’t she loose her abilities?
Nope, it does not say once in the codex that the squig swap removes the replaced models abilities

Has she been transformed into the squig?
Fluff yes, rules no.

Does she get MI?
As the rules stand, yes.

Remember people replace does not mean transform. Nearly all of you are getting confused with the fluff, just because the fluff says that the model becomes a squig doesnt mean the rules do. The rules are vastly different.

And, again, that is entirely irrelevant to the rules at hand: the St C model WAS in play, the St C mdoel is now NO LONGER in play, and so her MI rules kick in.

mishka_shaw wrote:
Is she a squig?
The answer is NO as you replaced her with a squig (remember what replace means, if you don’t than dictionary it, replace does 100% not mean polymorph or transform, SHE IS NOT THE SQUIG)

Yes, she is the squig. Read the rules and the background. She is transformed in to a squig. Zogwort turns people in to squigs. That is what happens. You replace the modle with a squig modle to reprasent this, and until someone develops real magic powers you we will have to continue doing this. She is still in play.

I cannot see what is so hard to grasp about this. She is the squig. It is clearly in the rules that she is turned in to a squig.

mishka_shaw wrote:
Remember people replace does not mean transform. Nearly all of you are getting confused with the fluff, just because the fluff says that the model becomes a squig doesnt mean the rules do. The rules are vastly different.

Your wrong. 100% wrong. She is turned in to a squig. I will conced if you can show me where it says she is killed or removed from play. It dose not. The rules say she is transformed in to a squig. There is no gray area on this. There is no confusion on this. There is only people who are trying to brake the rules and avoid her being made usless by a power that is designed to make her usless.

The origonal question, however, what happens when the squig dies, is another matter.