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Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

l0k1 wrote:For GKs, id have to say the purgitation squads are pretty crappy. 4 psycannons on 5 guys sounds good but its expensive and kind of pointless when its suppose to be a unit that sits back and lays down fire, but has to be too close just to be in range.

I beg to differ on this one for 150 points 4 S6 Heavy flamers in a rhino w/ a powerfist. Very fun unit, there is just much juicy goodness in the codex that they get overlooked.

That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Ascalam wrote:That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Still seems the worst of the support weapons. D Cannons are just cool. Vibros seem to have some use by hitting multiple units. Weavers add S6 to an army full of S6.

ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Ascalam wrote:DE: Mandrakes/ Kaedruakk (or whatever) the Decapitator.

mandrakes have Awesomesauce models, but an infiltrating CC unit that doesn't even get a ranged attack until they kill someone, and which on;y has regular CC weapons, no armour and only a 5+ inv?

Not so hot.

Decapitator pops up anywhere he likes, but can't assault that turn , so he gets to wave at the guys who then level their guns and blow him away..

Far worse than anything listed above it.


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Nagashek wrote:Mandrakes. Gorgeous resculpt, awesome fluff, but take up a valuable Elite slot for two meagre S4 attacks and outflank. Overcosted AND underpowered. I might consider them for 10PPM (just to have a cheap outflanking distraction unit) but costed as they are they're not effective.

Even at 10ppm they still arent very good. Wyches have grenades, drugs, higher inititive, default shooting weapons, wych weapons, a leader with a power weapon and unlock a raider/venom for 10ppm. They have a 6+ and a 4++ in cc as opposed to a 5++ all the time.

Titan Atlas wrote:ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Only one i can think of is bombing ork biker lists and KFF's greentide, as they can ignore cover.

Even then, they are not that great.


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dæl wrote:

Ascalam wrote:That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Still seems the worst of the support weapons. D Cannons are just cool. Vibros seem to have some use by hitting multiple units. Weavers add S6 to an army full of S6.

Couldn't agree more. My wife uses D cannons to great effect (and the new support cannon kit is awesome looking), and uses Vibrocannon against my hordier lists, but the weaver sees precious little play.

I'd not be shocked if they upped it to work like the Nightspinner in the new dex (but more fraile and static, being a gun platform)

blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

bobsy99 wrote:blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

librarian dread is an elite choice and has AV13 which is quite nice

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

bobsy99 wrote:blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

librarian dread is an elite choice and has AV13 which is quite nice

dc dread, furioso or librarian dread which would the majority of people pick

Ogryns. Way too expensive for what they provide.

Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Ascalam wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Only one i can think of is bombing ork biker lists and KFF's greentide, as they can ignore cover.

Even then, they are not that great.

Actually, they're not even good for bombing Ork bikers. Yes, Ork bikers always have a 4+ cover save which gets negated by the Whirlwind's incendiary shells. However, those incendiary shells are AP5, and the bikers have a 4+ save. In other words, they're not even good against Ork bikers. They're okay against horde infantry, but Thunderfire Cannons can do the same thing better, albeit without indirect fire.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

At double the points? Don't know where you're getting superior mobility from, I think moving max 12" and no weapons, and 6" one TL AC is a fair trade off for potential 12" movement, or 6" with full AC fire from the Exterminator. Lower range is also an issue for the Exterminator, and overall I just feel it is level with the Hydra, but double the points. Not to mention targeting vs skimmers.

Brother SRM wrote:
Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

The Deathwing/Ravenwing, as well as the whole heresy thing, that's pretty unique.
Compare to Space Wolves (C:SM with pelts!) or Blood angels (C:SM with jump packs!). Black Templar, fair enough I guess.

Joey wrote:
The Deathwing/Ravenwing, as well as the whole heresy thing, that's pretty unique.
Compare to Space Wolves (C:SM with pelts!) or Blood angels (C:SM with jump packs!). Black Templar, fair enough I guess.

Deathwing and Ravenwing are just taking those two units as troops. You can do the latter in the Space Marines codex, and it would be VERY easy to do the same thing with a captain in Terminator armor. Have you actually even read Codex: Space Wolves? It's very different from Codex: Space Marines while having some common ground. Blood Angels are at least more different than Dark Angels, but much of that was added in their last codex. As for the "heresy thing" that doesn't play into their rules whatsoever? That's just fluff which you can put anywhere.

Of all those that don't have their own, I think Iron Hands might deserve one. But as with SW and BA they would need some new, unique units to flesh it out. The next DA codex should introduce new units too, otherwise there really isn't any point in making it separate.

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.


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dæl wrote:Of all those that don't have their own, I think Iron Hands might deserve one. But as with SW and BA they would need some new, unique units to flesh it out. The next DA codex should introduce new units too, otherwise there really isn't any point in making it separate.

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

That's because they added in new units in their 5th editions, the original editions they came with had barely much different from the standard codex until they were updated.

As for the Dark Angels 4th edition upgrade..Jarvis just needs to stop writing the codex.

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does..

Worse yet the cost of said Punisher is the same as 3-4 Chimeras which have metal bawks going for them and output similar firepower and is dispersed to boot.


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ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

That's because they added in new units in their 5th editions, the original editions they came with had barely much different from the standard codex until they were updated.

As for the Dark Angels 4th edition upgrade..Jarvis just needs to stop writing the codex.

In all honesty many chapters could be theoretically argued to 'deserve' a codex, just as the current recipients spiffy army lists could all be argued out of their rules in favor of a handful of special characters (even the GK). Given rumors in all likelihood the DA are getting a new book/WD article sooner rather than later and currently feature an army book with an A++ build (deathwing) so they arent in a bad spot.

DarknessEternal wrote:Anything with the word "Guardian" in it.

THIS ^^

SM: Whirlwind If this cost 0 points i wouldn't take it. I would rather pay for a different heavy. Squadrons next time? Sure hope so.
DE: Mandrakes I tried to get them to work, but couldn't do it.

Vanguard vets have always given me a hard time. They just don't have enough punch.
Assault marines always treat me well. I have been known to field 30 in 2k points. Double flamer every time.

Canonesses.
They have awsome models put are terrible

Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.

Right but you could only shoot one of them if you move, and you're ignoring that the Punisher can also take those sponsons.
A punisher with HB sponsons and hull HB spits out 2.2+1=3.2 dead MEQ. In order for a vanilla Russ to get the same vs a squad in cover it would need to cover 6 marines, and NOT scatter.
You can also stick Pask in it for an (expensive) way of insta-killing any non-horde tyranids.


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lazarian wrote:
Worse yet the cost of said Punisher is the same as 3-4 Chimeras which have metal bawks going for them and output similar firepower and is dispersed to boot.

Oh you can take chimeras without a squad? I have to take them with veterans inside, usually I give them melta guns, so it's actually about 30% more expensive than a chimera...and comes with AV 14/13/11.
Seriously guys, do your research before you make posts like these.

Kain wrote:Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Heh, biovores are one of those units that I never seem to take when I need them, and when I take them, I never really need them.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kain wrote:Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Heh, biovores are one of those units that I never seem to take when I need them, and when I take them, I never really need them.

If they had multiple options for rounds like in 4e, I'd take them in a heartbeat. Damn shame that it's bigger brother, the Dactylis, is so much better but is an apoc only unit.

I find that Vanilla Razorbacks make things pretty meh. The added support usually doesn't outweigh the drop in survivability for the troops.

I think if the Whirlwind fired more than one shot per turn, you'ld see a lot more of them.

Jefffar wrote:I think if the Whirlwind fired more than one shot per turn, you'ld see a lot more of them.

This.

I... Honestly can't think of much else, really... Is there a reason I don't see Harlequins that often?