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jwolf wrote:That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

No, the FAQ makes it quite clear that JotWW does indeed shoot at a specific target model. Said target model is the first model that is affected the the power and must be in LoS. Any other models hit by JotWW were not shot at by the rune priest. Any other models the line touches are HIT as the line passes through. That is the RAW of the rule.

You are trying to say that the rune priest targets both the unengaged model AND the unit locked in close combat behind the unengaged model. You are trying to say that the rune priest shoots his PSA at both the unengaged model AND the unit locked in close combat behind the unengaged model. Neither assumptions are right and neither are they supported by the rules.

The rune priest targets the unengaged model.
The rune priest shoots his PSA at the unengaged model.
The power hits any other models the line passes through, beyond the originally targeted unengaged model.

At no time did the rune priest target the unit locked in close combat. At no time did the rune priest shoot at the unit locked in close combat. The mechanics of the power allowed the unit in close combat to be hit as it passed through the targeted unengaged model. That is it and completely legal.

Well what if we look at similar powers/weapons (her on iout referred to as "weapons")?

a) 1 weapon specifies that it does not affect friendly models.
2 weapons specifies it hits friendly models.
b) 1 weapon says it does not hit models locked in cc.
1 weapon says it hits models locked in cc.

Take what you want from this.

Happyjew wrote:Well what if we look at similar powers/weapons (her on iout referred to as "weapons")?

a) 1 weapon specifies that it does not affect friendly models.
1 weapon specifies that ignores friendly models
1 weapon specifies it hits friendly models.
b) 1 weapon says it does not hit models locked in cc.
1 weapon says it hits models locked in cc.

Take what you want from this.

You missed:

c) 1 weapon says it hits any models.

jwolf wrote:That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

Wrong.

It does not shoot models. It hits models. Important distinction.

Brother Ramses wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

One thing that you keep missing Yak is that at no time are you "shooting" at models in close combat.

Sorry? It's classified as a PSA, and as such you must "shoot" it.

You might want to brush up on the rulebook on the shooting phase for both weapons and PSA. You target with a PSA. At the time of targeting, the restrictions of eligible and ineligible targets comes into play. With JotWW you place a 24" line. According to the FAQ, the first model to be affected by the power, i.e., the first model the 24" line touches, is in affect the target model. Is that model in close combat? No. Is that model a friendly unit? No.

Targeting has been fulfilled.

Any other model, meaning any other besides the originally target, are hit as the line passes through. Are any of those other models the target? No. Are any of those other models restricted by the rules for targeting? No. They are models that are hit as the line passes through the original target model. At no time were they the target of the PSA and at no time were they under the restrictions for targeting a model with a PSA.

jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I know your argument will be targeting is prohibited, but that's the general case. JotWW has a specific case which has models besides the singular "target" hit, but shooting friendlies is certainly also generally prohibited; tesla destructors can shoot enemies and then bounce onto friendlies, so there are cases where specific allowances are made. JotWW has no specific allowance for hitting friendlies.

You are able to hit friendly units with it because JotWW specifically tells you ANY other models the line touches are hit as the line passes through. Any is inclusive of both enemy and friendly models.

Your argument is that the word "any" is explicit permission to ignore all restrictions for shooting? In all other cases of permission to hit friendlies or into combat, it says so in so many words. Perhaps you're right, but I'm certainly not convinced.

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

Wrong.

It does not shoot models. It hits models. Important distinction.

A case of people not following the vernacular that is the used in the World of Warhammer 40k which causes arguments just like this one.

BR, I messed up on Death Ray, and fixed it.
Death Ray says it hits any model, just like the Vibro Cannon (which was FAQd to allow hitting in cc. Based on that precedence, I think Death Ray hits models in cc as well.

So we have two weapons that literally hit any models that the line passes over, and one which specifies that it only hits enemy models not locked in cc.

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

Wrong.

It does not shoot models. It hits models. Important distinction.

How else does a shooting attack affect models if not by shooting them? Targeting <> shooting.

jwolf wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

One thing that you keep missing Yak is that at no time are you "shooting" at models in close combat.

Sorry? It's classified as a PSA, and as such you must "shoot" it.

You might want to brush up on the rulebook on the shooting phase for both weapons and PSA. You target with a PSA. At the time of targeting, the restrictions of eligible and ineligible targets comes into play. With JotWW you place a 24" line. According to the FAQ, the first model to be affected by the power, i.e., the first model the 24" line touches, is in affect the target model. Is that model in close combat? No. Is that model a friendly unit? No.

Targeting has been fulfilled.

Any other model, meaning any other besides the originally target, are hit as the line passes through. Are any of those other models the target? No. Are any of those other models restricted by the rules for targeting? No. They are models that are hit as the line passes through the original target model. At no time were they the target of the PSA and at no time were they under the restrictions for targeting a model with a PSA.

jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I know your argument will be targeting is prohibited, but that's the general case. JotWW has a specific case which has models besides the singular "target" hit, but shooting friendlies is certainly also generally prohibited; tesla destructors can shoot enemies and then bounce onto friendlies, so there are cases where specific allowances are made. JotWW has no specific allowance for hitting friendlies.

You are able to hit friendly units with it because JotWW specifically tells you ANY other models the line touches are hit as the line passes through. Any is inclusive of both enemy and friendly models.

Your argument is that the word "any" is explicit permission to ignore all restrictions for shooting? In all other cases of permission to hit friendlies or into combat, it says so in so many words. Perhaps you're right, but I'm certainly not convinced.

By all means then define ANY other then ANY.

Seriously? If the rule tells you that any blue models are dead are you going to argue that blue models with bolters are not dead because it does not specify blue models with bolters?

No, but if it says "any" I am going to assume that it means "any legal" unless it says otherwise.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

Wrong.

It does not shoot models. It hits models. Important distinction.

How else does a shooting attack affect models if not by shooting them?

By hitting them.

Shooting has a specific sequence on page 15. There's a process to follow. One of the steps in that process is check line of sight and pick a target (in fact, it's the first step).

Jaws breaks that rule by determining the target AFTER the power is cast and the line is drawn. It then hits the target model.
It also hits every other model in a 24" line. It skips to step 3 for every other model after the first. Meaning it doesn't target them.

Again, shooting <> targeting. Blood Lance doesn't target models that it certainly shoots. A Tesla Destructor can shoot models it doesn't target. Hitting things in the shooting phase is shooting them. Targeting is an entirely different thing than shooting.

jwolf wrote:Again, shooting <> targeting. Blood Lance doesn't target models that it certainly shoots. A Tesla Destructor can shoot models it doesn't target. Hitting things in the shooting phase is shooting them. Targeting is an entirely different thing than shooting.

Shooting requires targeting.
The JotWW FAQ states, unequivocally, that the targeted model is the first one hit.
Where are you getting permission to target secondary units?
Because without targeting you cannot shoot. Please read page 15.

Obviously you can shoot models that you didn't target. Hitting things with bullets or shooting attacks is shooting them. Yes you TARGET one model, which is required for shooting to occur, but that doesn't mean that your shooting attack only shoots that target - it shoots anything that it hits. So Targeting <> Shooting = Hitting.

No one is arguing that shooting doesn't require targeting. And no one is demonstrating that targeting is equivalent to shooting (because it isn't).

We all know that shooting requires targeting. We all know that JotWW requires the first model hit to be targeted and in LOS. Those are unrelated to what models might be shot (other than the first model) by JotWW.

Eating requires food. That doesn't mean that food = eating.

And the word "ANY" is not used ANYWHERE in the description of JotWW in the SW Codex or the SW GW FAQ. I apologize for assuming that the rules were correctly quoted and not looking them up earlier.

jwolf wrote:Obviously you can shoot models that you didn't target. Hitting things with bullets or shooting attacks is shooting them. Yes you TARGET one model, which is required for shooting to occur, but that doesn't mean that your shooting attack only shoots that target - it shoots anything that it hits. So Targeting <> Shooting = Hitting.

No one is arguing that shooting doesn't require targeting. And no one is demonstrating that targeting is equivalent to shooting (because it isn't).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We all know that shooting requires targeting. We all know that JotWW requires the first model hit to be targeted and in LOS. Those are unrelated to what models might be shot (other than the first model) by JotWW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eating requires food. That doesn't mean that food = eating.

And you continue to fail at understanding how the rules in this game are written and how they work

Targeting is defined in the rulebook.
Shooting is defined in the rulebook.
Hitting is defined in the rulebook.

If something is hit in the shooting phase, that is not indicative that it was targeted and shot at. You keep attempting to say that because a unit in in close combat is hit by JotWW it was targeted and shot at by the rune priest which is completely false. That is not how the rules are written and not how they are played.

jwolf wrote:
And the word "ANY" is not used ANYWHERE in the description of JotWW in the SW Codex or the SW GW FAQ. I apologize for assuming that the rules were correctly quoted and not looking them up earlier.

I just double checked as well your right "any" isn't listed.

relevant quotes:

codex:
"Monstours creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry models that are touched by this line..."

faq:
"...the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"

No matter what is said its a fact that here people are arguing it is okay to target an enemy unit locked in combat. Next thing you know someone will claim JotWW works against jump infantry.

So with JotWW, you draw your line and then later determin the target (first model affected).
But what is it that allows you to place that line over models in close combat? Blasts and templates aren't allowed to (deliberately) do so. Is it purely because no target was selected when the line was drawn?

My argument is based on precedence - Eldar Vibro Cannon.

Jaws of the World Wolf: "May trace a straight line...from the Rune Priest and ending X" away. ..Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models touched must take an Initiative test."
Vibro Cannon: "If any of the Vibro Cannons hit, draw a single X" straight line from one Vibro Cannon in any direction. Any unit the line passes through suffers X hits..."

Since the two work similarly (and this is the reason I argued that Blood Lance and Jaws required a To Hit roll pre-FAQ), the Eldar FAQ can be used as a precedence, and thus, Jaws can hit models locked in cc.

-666- wrote:No matter what is said its a fact that here people are arguing it is okay to target an enemy unit locked in combat. Next thing you know someone will claim JotWW works against jump infantry.

No one is claiming that. People are claiming that the line placed by JotWW can AFFECT an enemy unit locked in combat. Those units are NOT TARGETED - only the first unit hit is targeted. You have contributed nothing to this debate other than cheerleading Yakface, haven't quoted any rules, and aren't reading other people's posts.

The rules don't work that way dude. You don't buy one codex for rules how to play another... Seriously.

So then only a Baal predator can use Smoke Launchers in the Scout phase?

There are a number of rulings that apply to multiple armies, but listed in only one armies FAQ.

What else can/could ?

All right, better example. According to you only the Baal Predator can move Flat-out for the Scout move.

Brother Ramses wrote:

jwolf wrote:Obviously you can shoot models that you didn't target. Hitting things with bullets or shooting attacks is shooting them. Yes you TARGET one model, which is required for shooting to occur, but that doesn't mean that your shooting attack only shoots that target - it shoots anything that it hits. So Targeting <> Shooting = Hitting.

No one is arguing that shooting doesn't require targeting. And no one is demonstrating that targeting is equivalent to shooting (because it isn't).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We all know that shooting requires targeting. We all know that JotWW requires the first model hit to be targeted and in LOS. Those are unrelated to what models might be shot (other than the first model) by JotWW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eating requires food. That doesn't mean that food = eating.

And you continue to fail at understanding how the rules in this game are written and how they work

Targeting is defined in the rulebook.
Shooting is defined in the rulebook.
Hitting is defined in the rulebook.

If something is hit in the shooting phase, that is not indicative that it was targeted and shot at. You keep attempting to say that because a unit in in close combat is hit by JotWW it was targeted and shot at by the rune priest which is completely false. That is not how the rules are written and not how they are played.

And you continue to equate targeting to shooting, which is patently inaccurate. SHOOTING AT a model is not the same as SHOOTING a model, which is the same thing as HITTING a model with a SHOOTING attack. You target models you want to shoot at; you hit models that you actually shoot. You cannot shoot into close combat. This means you cannot hit models in close combat unless you have an explicit ability to do so. In every case (other than, in your claim, JotWW) permission to hit models in close combat is explicitly given (example, scattering blasts) is given if the power or attack can hit models in close combat. EXPLICITLY, as in the phrase "may hit models in close combat." No such phrase exists in this case. Nor is your previous position of "ANY" valid, as that term is not used in the description of JotWW or the "targeting" FAQ answer. Arguing that laying a line down so that it lies over a model in close combat, or a friendly model, or whatever is somehow "unintentional" or "accidental" is at best disingenuous, and I don't believe you are being disingenuous.

Also please provide the definitions of targeting, shooting, and hitting as given in the rule book, as per your assertion above. A definition looks like this:

Definition - A description or clarification of a term or phrase, used to remove ambiguity.

I'm having trouble finding them.

-666- wrote:What else can/could ?

Scout Sentinels and StormTroopers in a Chimera are the first ones that spring to mind.

Also, GK 'Grand Strategy' special ability can give 'Scouts' to any unit.

grendel083 wrote:

-666- wrote:What else can/could ?

Scout Sentinels and StormTroopers in a Chimera are the first ones that spring to mind.

But the gist is its only useful for the Baal. Correct ?

since its not a hit per say but actually just a test wouldn't it just have to pass the unit type test?
so basically my train of though its:
Is the model a Monsterous creature, beast, cavalry, bike and/or infantry? if yes take test if no then ignore.

We're getting way off on tangents here. Let's focus back to the one premise that is being bandied about as to why it would be allowed to affect models in combat with JotWW as long as the target isn't in combat itself:

The premise that the models affected after the first are not being 'shot' at.

The flaw with this premise is that it presumes that only units that are targeted are the ones that can be fired at, which is patently false. The easiest example to debunk this myth is the standard template weapon. That weapon chooses a target, but can then end up covering and affecting models from other units besides the 'target' one.

Would anyone here try to claim that a template which affects a unit besides the target has not been shot by the flamer weapon? And if so, by what rationale?


While it is absolutely true that JotWW is not a template weapon, the exact same premise and conclusion apply. It has a 'target' (the first model the line crosses) but then can still affect other models after that target. However all those models are being shot by the shooting attack that is JotWW, the exact same way that a template weapon can end up shooting other units besides its target and the same is true with a blast weapon.

With some shooting attacks the 'target' of a weapon's shooting is not the only thing that gets shot by it, and the game has many instances of that, with JotWW being just one.



----


Now let's look at the next premise that is being bandied about, that the rules for not firing into combat specify ONLY blast and template weapons not being able to be placed over any models in combat, and since JotWW is neither of these, it is not bound by the same rule.

To debunk this myth, you need to look at what the actual crazy rules say in this case:

(pg 40) wrote:"...while especially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted. The events in a close combat move too quickly and the warriors themselves will be understandably hesitant about firing on their comrades."

And:

(pg 40) wrote:"While blast markers and templates may not be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, they may end up there after scattering and will then hit any models they touch (friends and foes!)."

The important thing to note about this rule is that the first part is all there is in the rules preventing units from firing into combat. So while the rule is most certainly written in a generally descriptive way (rather than specifically quoting what you can or cannot do), the message is clear: even though you as a player would like to fire into combat, your are not permitted to do so.

Now, some have used the description and tried to claim that it only applies to indiscriminate shooting. Unfortunately, the vast majority of shooting is discriminate. When I fire a squad of 10 bolter marines, I have absolutely no chance of ever hitting friendly models with this shooting, so if we are to try to claim that this rule only applies to indiscriminate weapons (weapons that can potentially affect friendly models, I guess is what is trying to be claimed) then that means there are literally no rules in the game then preventing me from opening fire against an enemy unit locked in combat with, say 10 bolter marines, because they are not firing indiscriminately; they are very discriminately firing at the enemy models locked in combat.

So hopefully we can all agree that the rule in general is saying that you are not allowed to fire into combat, period. And note here that there is absolutely no mention of 'targeting' an enemy unit locked in combat, it simply says that you, as a player are not permitted to fire into close combat even though you would like to.

Why would they not simply say 'you cannot choose an enemy unit locked in combat as the target of shooting'? Because that would leave the big loophole for any type of shooting weapon that is able to affect other enemy units besides its stated target to go ahead and shoot into combats as long as its target isn't locked in combat itself.

So the 2nd quote above is the reference about flamers and blast weapons, which is expressing how the first rule (not being able to fire into combat) applies to blast and template weapons, because those are the only two types of weapons in the main rulebook that are able to affect units besides their stated target.

However the first quote is the rule...you are not allowed to fire into combat...and then the 2nd quote is the expression of how that rule affects blasts & templates. But the first rule applies to all types of shooting exactly the same way it does for templates and blasts, because the 2nd quote is *not* the actual rule (merely just the expression of how the rule is applied to blasts and templates).


----



So again, the rules prohibit you from firing into combat. JotWW is a psychic shooting attack, so any model killed by it has been killed by a psychic shooting attack. As you are not permitted to fire into combat, drawing a line through combat would mean you have fired into combat and therefore is not permitted.