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MightyGodzilla wrote:I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to?

It reinforces that you do not get an armor/cover/invulnerable save against its effect.

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Incorrect, as I have shown rules that say there is a correct way. They will likely not FAQ it.

Makutsu wrote:I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Yea, The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

I change my out look. I have re-read all applicable rules. FnP work against weapons that are double toughness now. See page 16 where it says when a model takes an unsaved wound from a weapon with double it's toughness. As DeathReaper says you don't know if it is unsaved until after FnP is made. Now look on page 38 the actual Instant death special rule, where it says this weapon automatically causes instant death. Working the way DeathReaper says actually makes Dark Eldar not die against strength 6+ weapons. Thank you DeathReapeer for making Dark Eldar better.

DeathReaper wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to?

It reinforces that you do not get an armor/cover/invulnerable save against its effect.

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Incorrect, as I have shown rules that say there is a correct way. They will likely not FAQ it.

Makutsu wrote:I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Yea, The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

You are still assuming FNP goes first, I am not arguing on this anymore.

The rules for Hexrifle was written with 5th edition in mind when saves would go then the effect of Hexrifle.

FNP now is put into a weird position and will probably be FAQ'd to make it more clear.

Look at the poll on the other thread, 50/50 of the people agree on 2 different things clearly when something is that debatable there's something wrong with the clarity of the rules.

Makutsu wrote:You are still assuming FNP goes first, I am not arguing on this anymore.

The rules for Hexrifle was written with 5th edition in mind when saves would go then the effect of Hexrifle.

FNP now is put into a weird position and will probably be FAQ'd to make it more clear.

Look at the poll on the other thread, 50/50 of the people agree on 2 different things clearly when something is that debatable there's something wrong with the clarity of the rules.

Only if you ignore what FNP says.

In all reality It does not matter which one goes first, as once you pass a FNP roll the wound is not unsaved, and to apply effects that work off of unsaved wounds is breaking the rules, since the wound is treated as saved, and not unsaved. We can not remove the model even if it failed a hexrifle test, as there is no unsaved wound anymore after FNP is passed so removing the model on a saved wound, when the Hexrifle effect calls for an unsaved wound is breaking the rules.

megatrons2nd wrote:I change my out look. I have re-read all applicable rules. FnP work against weapons that are double toughness now. See page 16 where it says when a model takes an unsaved wound from a weapon with double it's toughness. As DeathReaper says you don't know if it is unsaved until after FnP is made. Now look on page 38 the actual Instant death special rule, where it says this weapon automatically causes instant death. Working the way DeathReaper says actually makes Dark Eldar not die against strength 6+ weapons. Thank you DeathReapeer for making Dark Eldar better.

Except FNP Specifically disallows the roll if the Str is 2X toughness so if that is the case, then FNP can not be rolled.

What exactly are you getting at here?

There is all of three weapons I have found that just cause instant death. The Eldar D-cannon, wraithcannon, and Karandrukers(sp) Decapitator. They all "cause instant death on a to wound roll of 6". Most(since I may have missed one) other weapons say you must suffer an unsaved wound before it causes instant death. As you have stated, many times, you don't know if the wound is unsaved until you roll for FnP. Using your logic not even the basic Instant death comes before FnP. I am not "breaking" FnP as I am just following the rule as not making the FnP roll first breaks FnP rule.

megatrons2nd wrote: Using your logic not even the basic Instant death comes before FnP.

Sorry, this is just wrong. Instant death does not come before FNP.

The Feel No Pain rule specifically states that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

If you have a weapon that always causes instant death on a roll of '6', then;

You roll to hit, if you hit you roll to wound, if you roll a 6 the wound, if unsaved, causes instant death. The target model rolls any applicable save, if successful nothing happens, if failed, the model suffers instant death and is removed. No FNP roll can be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

Don't know where you are going with this, but this part at least is really pretty cut and dried.

His point is that Deathreaper argues that nothing can ever ever ever come before FnP as you don't actually know if you have an unsaved wound until you've rolled FnP.

Therefore, since FnP is rolled before an unsaved wound is actually inflicted, thereby trumping all other effects that trigger off the same thing, you can indeed roll for it on effects that inflict instant death, as that wound never happened, and was saved instead.

nohman wrote:
Therefore, since FnP is rolled before an unsaved wound is actually inflicted, thereby trumping all other effects that trigger off the same thing, you can indeed roll for it on effects that inflict instant death, as that wound never happened, and was saved instead.

Incorrect. Feel No Pain, page 35, first sentence, "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound..." {emphasis mine}

A model first suffers an unsaved wound.

If the wound inflicted is not one that inflicts instant death, the model can make a FNP roll to avoid the wound.

If the FNP roll is successful, the wound is discounted, you treat it as being saved. It wasn't saved, in fact the saving throw has to have been failed for the unsaved wound to occur, but you treat it as being saved.

The correct order is that first the wound happens, then a saving throw is made, then a FNP roll can be made.

So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

nohman wrote:So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

You could roll for the Hexrifle, but if you Pass FNP it has no effect.

As the player with two actions to take, you should always roll FNP first though, since its outcome determines if the Hexrifle has any effect at all.

nohman wrote:So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

I do agree that, "A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test..."

And I further agree that a model with the FNP special rule can roll, "...to avoid being wounded..."

So, if after all relevant rolls have been made, the model is found to have failed the characteristic test called for by the hexrifle special rule, it is removed at that point.

However a number of variables still come into play.

The hexrifle attack hits and wounds a model.

If it passes its save nothing else happens. if it doesn't pass its save or doensn't get one, it has suffered an unsaved Wound.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, it is removed due to the unsaved wound. It doesn't have to take the characteristic test. Why should it? It is removed.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it passes that, it still takes the wound, but only the one.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it fails that, it is removed.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails that roll, it is removed due to the unsaved wound.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and passes that roll, nothing else happens, the wound has been avoided.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and passes, nothing else happens, the wound has been avoided.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails, then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it passes that, it still takes the wound, but only the one.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails, then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it fails that, it is removed.

You see, the key is that on an unsaved wound the target must make 2 rolls, one for feel no pain and one for the hexrifle special rule. If you make the hexrifle roll first and remove the model, then it cannot make the FNP roll, which by rule, it can make. You can't take any actions for models that are removed. Not unless they have a specific exception like fluers zooming off the table edge.

So in the case of the hexrifle vs FNP rolls debate, the only way to not break the FNP rule, which grants a roll on an unsaved wound, is to make that roll before the characteristic test. Because if the FNP roll is passed, then there is no unsaved wound and the hexrifle roll cannot be made. But if the characteristic test is made first and the model is removed, then it cannot make the FNP roll.

But there's nothing new here, this has all been brought out and bantered back and fort through 6 or so pages by now. So think of this as a recap. There is no line in the rule that says "Feel No Pain rolls are made before hexrifle characteristic test are made." nor is it likely theree will ever be such a line. As I said a few pages back, rolling for FNP breaks no rules and is the more correct rder of operations.

If you feel otherwise, then play it how you wish. There is no 100% definite method based on the current writing of the rules, and IMO this discussion is just going around in circles at this point.

How about those other weapons whose roll cause instant death on the test? He says FnP goes before those as well. They can end up causing instant death, and as they have the instant death rule you should not be able to FnP it. His argument is used on those weapons as well.

megatrons2nd wrote:How about those other weapons whose roll cause instant death on the test? He says FnP goes before those as well. They can end up causing instant death, and as they have the instant death rule you should not be able to FnP it. His argument is used on those weapons as well.

Then, as I said 6 posts before yours,

time wizard wrote:If you have a weapon that always causes instant death on a roll of '6', then;

You roll to hit, if you hit you roll to wound, if you roll a 6 the wound, if unsaved, causes instant death. The target model rolls any applicable save, if successful nothing happens, if failed, the model suffers instant death and is removed. No FNP roll can be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

time wizard, I think he was referring to weapons that on a failed (or successful) test cause ID, i.e. boneswords and Force weapons.

As I stated in the FNP poll, IMO, if the weapon has the potential to cause ID, then you would follow the rule on page 9(?) and whoesever turn it is would get to choose. Note, however, that for certain weapons (such as boneswords) since the same player rolls both dice, he would get to choose order.

Happyjew wrote:Note, however, that for certain weapons (such as boneswords) since the same player rolls both dice, he would get to choose order.

That is correct.

P.9 does not apply to the Hexrifle vs FNP either. Only one person has actions, the person with the Hexrifle has no action, as it is on his opponent to make a FNP roll and a Test because of the Hexrifle.

Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."


As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

megatrons2nd wrote:Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

Both rules are triggered by the same thing, an unsaved wound.

As for being cumulative or formed by or resulting from accumulation or the addition of successive parts or elements, the addition of being removed by failing a characteristic test is an additional rule or an additional part or element of the wounding process. It requires an unsaved wound for the effect to occur.

And once FNP is passed, the hitherto unsaved wound has been discounted. There is no longer an unsaved wound. So anything that builds on that condition or is an additional part based on that condition, is ignored.

Once you have passed the roll for feel no pain, you cannot take any other test based on an unsaved wound, because the unsaved wound no longer exists. And you can't make the feel no pain roll after failing the test and being removed, because after being removed you can't take any action. The action of being removed has already occurred. So you must have taken the FNP roll first or you wouldn't be around to take or not take the hexrifle characteristic test.

Time Wizard has it correct.

If you take the Hexrifle test first and remove the model you break FNP's rule allowing you a FNP roll.

If you take FNP first, then no rules are broken.

Megatrons2nd (why is your avatar not Starscream?) is just responding to your earlier claims that Feel No Pain must come before other effects as it can lead to a saved wound. Your words seem to imply, at least to my eyes, that is the case, when it isn't. Abilities that are triggered after an unsaved wound all happen at the same time, unless they specifically state otherwise, like Force Weapons. No one can claim to go before the other without additional wording, like in Force which has immediately included.

Now I agree with you DeathReaper on that is how the order should go, but only because it keeps the game simpler and flows better. Technically though I think Megatrons2nd is correct in his own interpretation, cause that is how I read it as well, but as you said that can lead to breaking rules. It is best to avoid breaking rules when you can so rolling the Feel No Pain before is the simplest solution for that. IMHO, during a game it hardly matters which is rolled first as long as both players know that upon a successful Feel No Pain roll the Hex Rifle would not take effect. IF the DE player wants the other rolled first, you can entertain him, just make sure to point out if Feel No Pain is passed your model(s) is/aren't going away. No argument need be had, and if one does arise perhaps that person isn't worth playing against.

time wizard wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

Both rules are triggered by the same thing, an unsaved wound.

As for being cumulative or formed by or resulting from accumulation or the addition of successive parts or elements, the addition of being removed by failing a characteristic test is an additional rule or an additional part or element of the wounding process. It requires an unsaved wound for the effect to occur.

And once FNP is passed, the hitherto unsaved wound has been discounted. There is no longer an unsaved wound. So anything that builds on that condition or is an additional part based on that condition, is ignored.

Once you have passed the roll for feel no pain, you cannot take any other test based on an unsaved wound, because the unsaved wound no longer exists. And you can't make the feel no pain roll after failing the test and being removed, because after being removed you can't take any action. The action of being removed has already occurred. So you must have taken the FNP roll first or you wouldn't be around to take or not take the hexrifle characteristic test.

Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule. Although with the multiple Special rule stacking, I now believe that Necrons should get there Resurrection protocols against Removed from play rules.

My avatar is Megatron because most people fail to notice the 2nd part and they ask my why it is Starscream as my avatar. Also I haven't found the Emperor Starscream(or was it King) photo I like yet.

megatrons2nd wrote:
Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule.

It is not breaking the removed from play part of the rule, as once FNP is passed the wound is no longer unsaved, we have to treat it as saved, so the Hexrifle test can not be made.

DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:
Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule.

It is not breaking the removed from play part of the rule, as once FNP is passed the wound is no longer unsaved, we have to treat it as saved, so the Hexrifle test can not be made.

No saves of ANY kind are allowed against the Removed from play portion of the Hexrifle rules. So now you broke the save portion of the Hexrifle.

megatrons2nd wrote:No saves of ANY kind are allowed against the Removed from play portion of the Hexrifle rules. So now you broke the save portion of the Hexrifle.

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." P.35

FNP is not a saving throw.

But if we pass FNP "On a [Number], the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved" we have to treat the unsaved Wound as having been saved.

So while FNP is not a saving throw, it can create a saved wound.

It does not say saving throw of any kind. It says SAVES of any kind. A saved wound is a save, is it not? Treat as saved is a save, is it not? Since saves of any kind would be a saved wound you are not allowed to save it.

And since special rules stack you can have no wound, but still suffer the effects of other special rules.

FNP is not a save.

P.19 "MAXIMUM SAVE" section (Caps retained for the integrity of the quote) Equates Saving throw with save:

"no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond..."

The previous section, models with more than one save, also equate Saving throw to save with the quote:

"a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Saving throw = Save.

megatrons2nd wrote:Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.

It is not the instant death rule that negates a feel no pain roll, it is the Feel No Pain rule!

FNP states the rule does not work against unsaved wounds which cause instant death!