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I dont generally take allies, but I might allie some IG with my DA just so i have a reason to build some IG. Don't know if it will expand into a new army or not ..

I think this is what I like best about allies, chance to try new things, in some fashion.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I like allies, brings some diversity and added challenges to a field. also lets you fix and balance out a list. say you want to play dark angels but your flyers suck and you have some imperial guard you can shore up your weakness with a Valkyrie, and add in a few sniper or heavy weapons teams to back up your army and have cheap objectives. or a fav of mine orks but with some eldar allies to help them blow through armor. and have some fire support to help the lads get in combat

And this is exactly why Allies are so suspect. Rather than flowing with the background the Allies are used to create game-breaking number-crunching exercises that were not meant to be seen on the battlefield. I began in 2nd/3rd and Chaos/Daemons, and other combinations, were not allies so much as different heads of the same Hydra. It's good to see it back, but this implementation feels forced and awkward.

I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

Allies is not in the spirit of the game....

It does sell more models....


Well, glad to get that ethical decision out in the open....

Good Job GW

Allies are the only way to get inquisitors and henchmen into a sisters list. I'm good with allies until I can get them in the list without using the GK codex.

Stupid GK jerks...

I don't think it is cheating in any way

when you think about it, you are spending your points on different models rather than having more from your first codex. some allies (space marines, eldar) are downright expensive, so they might foil your primary detachment of IG, say. and even if the detachment covers up the primary's weaknesses, that allied detachment is both A. small, and B. has its own weaknesses.

take this Tau and Eldar combo that is cropping up a lot. you are spending a tonne of points on the Eldar you bring, supposedly to deal with the Tau's horrific CC skills, right? but as we know, they are expensive, elite and easy to kill if you get your moves wrong, and it will be quite easy to get your moves wrong while you are focusing on shooting with one army and assaulting with the other. and once that eldar detachment is dead, you are back to square one again. in short? ITS NOT CHEATING (even though, I agree, it sometimes feels like it is)

GA


P.S if you doubt that, then use this quote from Lord Of The Night

"see how the mighty are fallen"

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

When a space marine chapter is met with a choice between eldar who are willing to talk and genocidal necrons, the space marines usually buddy up with the Eldar for a little to put the mummy killbots away.

Better to kill the alien who wants you dead now and work with the semi reasonable ones for now (you can always kill them later) than fight both at once.

The successful parts of the Imperium wed zeal with pragmatism, after all, one cannot serve the Emperor from a grave dug by foolish errors.

 Kain wrote:


The successful parts of the Imperium wed zeal with pragmatism, after all, one cannot serve the Emperor from a grave dug by foolish errors.

Saint Celestine can!

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

The Imperium often have alien allies.

General Annoyance wrote:
I don't think it is cheating in any way

when you think about it, you are spending your points on different models rather than having more from your first codex. some allies (space marines, eldar) are downright expensive, so they might foil your primary detachment of IG, say. and even if the detachment covers up the primary's weaknesses, that allied detachment is both A. small, and B. has its own weaknesses.

take this Tau and Eldar combo that is cropping up a lot. you are spending a tonne of points on the Eldar you bring, supposedly to deal with the Tau's horrific CC skills, right? but as we know, they are expensive, elite and easy to kill if you get your moves wrong, and it will be quite easy to get your moves wrong while you are focusing on shooting with one army and assaulting with the other. and once that eldar detachment is dead, you are back to square one again. in short? ITS NOT CHEATING (even though, I agree, it sometimes feels like it is)

You bring the Eldar to get acces to their amazing psykers, not to cover up Tau's non-existant weakness to CC. Tau don't have psykers of their own, but by paying for a small Guardian squad and a Farseer they get an ML3 psyker with access to Divination.

 Gargantuan wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

The Imperium often have alien allies.

Apart from the Jokaero (who are basically slaves), I can't think of any alliances with Xenos that aren't the result of Enemy Mine and don't involve the Imperium immediately rushing to backstab their allies before their common enemy stops twitching.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

The Imperium often have alien allies.

Apart from the Jokaero (who are basically slaves), I can't think of any alliances with Xenos that aren't the result of Enemy Mine and don't involve the Imperium immediately rushing to backstab their allies before their common enemy stops twitching.

Grey Knights holding Malantai's spirit stones (after clearing it of daemons) while Iyanden Eldar come to pick them up.
Dante and the Silent King beating off that Tyranid swarm
Cain and those Kroot/Tau (although he does let some Tau infected by genestealers just walk back home without a word so maybe that's backstabbing?)
The end of Dawn of War: Winter Assault
Didn't the Black Crusade event involve Eldar allying with the Imperium?

Rihgu wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

The Imperium often have alien allies.

Apart from the Jokaero (who are basically slaves), I can't think of any alliances with Xenos that aren't the result of Enemy Mine and don't involve the Imperium immediately rushing to backstab their allies before their common enemy stops twitching.

Grey Knights holding Malantai's spirit stones (after clearing it of daemons) while Iyanden Eldar come to pick them up.
Dante and the Silent King beating off that Tyranid swarm
Cain and those Kroot/Tau (although he does let some Tau infected by genestealers just walk back home without a word so maybe that's backstabbing?)
The end of Dawn of War: Winter Assault
Didn't the Black Crusade event involve Eldar allying with the Imperium?

1 - Hmm, that seems almost unreasonably helpful of the Grey Knights, is this Matt Ward's fluff by any chance?
2 - "I know we hate each other, but let's team up to kill these Tyranids" is exactly Enemy Mine.
3 - Still pretty much "Enemy Mine" and setting up a Genestealer cult on a Tau world is definitely backstabbing.
4 - Non-canon.
5 - Even more "Enemy Mine". They probably went right back to being at each other's throats afterwards too.

Relic, FFG, Boom comics, and BL are as canon as any codex. Whether they are truthful is another matter.

If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

 Gargantuan wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
I didn't use allies in 2nd ed when they were allowed.

It's not so much "cheating" as wtf?

Did GW not even pay attention to their own fluff?

Chaos allying with necrons?
The imperium allying with ANY xenos?
Sure, certain inquisitors might do it, and there was that little thing in Firewarrior, but for the most part, they get along like one religious sect and another sect from their own religion.

The Imperium often have alien allies.

Suffer not the alien to live....

Rihgu wrote:
If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

I think Enemy Mine fits better, as it refers to enemies joining together to fight a larger threat, while Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is not getting along with your teammates, but you're still on the same side.

Is Dawn of War considered canonical? I thought it wasn't, which is why they made up a new chapter for it.

I'm not getting into a philosophical debate about the ethics of passive vs active actions, but I will say that Cain did have ample opportunity to warn them and chose not to. Plus I thought we were talking about "the Imperium" not any individual, it's not like after the events of said book the Tau and Imperial forces in the sector went out on a picnic to pick flowers or anything.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

I think Enemy Mine fits better, as it refers to enemies joining together to fight a larger threat, while Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is not getting along with your teammates, but you're still on the same side.

Is Dawn of War considered canonical? I thought it wasn't, which is why they made up a new chapter for it.

I'm not getting into a philosophical debate about the ethics of passive vs active actions, but I will say that Cain did have ample opportunity to warn them and chose not to. Plus I thought we were talking about "the Imperium" not any individual, it's not like after the events of said book the Tau and Imperial forces in the sector went out on a picnic to pick flowers or anything.

So long as you see that warhammer 40000 logo, it is canon, even if it displays the Emperor as a catgirl eldar loli and the chaos gods as the teenaged mutant ninja turtles.

 Kain wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

I think Enemy Mine fits better, as it refers to enemies joining together to fight a larger threat, while Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is not getting along with your teammates, but you're still on the same side.

Is Dawn of War considered canonical? I thought it wasn't, which is why they made up a new chapter for it.

I'm not getting into a philosophical debate about the ethics of passive vs active actions, but I will say that Cain did have ample opportunity to warn them and chose not to. Plus I thought we were talking about "the Imperium" not any individual, it's not like after the events of said book the Tau and Imperial forces in the sector went out on a picnic to pick flowers or anything.

So long as you see that warhammer 40000 logo, it is canon, even if it displays the Emperor as a catgirl eldar loli and the chaos gods as the teenaged mutant ninja turtles.

I would so worship Eldar catgirl lolita Emperor over rotting skeleton in a gold toilet Emperor any day.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

I think Enemy Mine fits better, as it refers to enemies joining together to fight a larger threat, while Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is not getting along with your teammates, but you're still on the same side.

Is Dawn of War considered canonical? I thought it wasn't, which is why they made up a new chapter for it.

I'm not getting into a philosophical debate about the ethics of passive vs active actions, but I will say that Cain did have ample opportunity to warn them and chose not to. Plus I thought we were talking about "the Imperium" not any individual, it's not like after the events of said book the Tau and Imperial forces in the sector went out on a picnic to pick flowers or anything.

You know, allies doesn't necessitate picnics and flower picking. Like, pretty much every example of allies in (real life) history. America + the UK, America + Russia in WW2. Germany + Russia in WW2. I think the allies rules do a very bang-up job of displaying alliances within the complicated sociopolitical atmosphere of the 41st millennia.

It isn't like 40K itself ever sets up "realistic" battles. So it's hard to use "realism" as a reason why Allies are a bad idea.


People will exploit the allies to make non-fluffy armies just as they will exploit the codex books by themselves to create non-fluffy armies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
I don't think it is cheating in any way

when you think about it, you are spending your points on different models rather than having more from your first codex. some allies (space marines, eldar) are downright expensive, so they might foil your primary detachment of IG, say. and even if the detachment covers up the primary's weaknesses, that allied detachment is both A. small, and B. has its own weaknesses.

take this Tau and Eldar combo that is cropping up a lot. you are spending a tonne of points on the Eldar you bring, supposedly to deal with the Tau's horrific CC skills, right? but as we know, they are expensive, elite and easy to kill if you get your moves wrong, and it will be quite easy to get your moves wrong while you are focusing on shooting with one army and assaulting with the other. and once that eldar detachment is dead, you are back to square one again. in short? ITS NOT CHEATING (even though, I agree, it sometimes feels like it is)

You bring the Eldar to get acces to their amazing psykers, not to cover up Tau's non-existant weakness to CC. Tau don't have psykers of their own, but by paying for a small Guardian squad and a Farseer they get an ML3 psyker with access to Divination.

oh right, my bad on that one, I wouldn't know cos I've never used that alliance.

"Tau's non existent weakness to CC" - what do you mean by this?

granted, that strategy is good, psykers with a non psyker army, but that doesn't mean that's cheating, does it? even with the great resilliance I have heard about from farseers, it can still be slain along with the guardians and foil your boosted rolls strategy on the Tau.

GA

General Annoyance wrote:


"Tau's non existent weakness to CC" - what do you mean by this?

I think he means that Tau have so many anti-CC tools in their arsenal that, even though their models aren't actually good *IN* CC, they don't have a weakness to CC.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
If you're really so desperate to use the tropes, then what most of those actually are are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeethClenchedTeamwork

And yea, pretty much any official work is canon, anyways.

And Cain didn't "set it up". He let it happen but it's not like he shoved Genestealer eggs down Tau throats.

I think Enemy Mine fits better, as it refers to enemies joining together to fight a larger threat, while Teeth-Clenched Teamwork is not getting along with your teammates, but you're still on the same side.

Is Dawn of War considered canonical? I thought it wasn't, which is why they made up a new chapter for it.

I'm not getting into a philosophical debate about the ethics of passive vs active actions, but I will say that Cain did have ample opportunity to warn them and chose not to. Plus I thought we were talking about "the Imperium" not any individual, it's not like after the events of said book the Tau and Imperial forces in the sector went out on a picnic to pick flowers or anything.

The chapter Blood Ravens was actually listed in the 4th edition codex, honoring them as an actual chapter and legalizing them in the 40k Universe.

And to be fair, it's a tradition, most groups have their own little chapter of space marine to play with.

Forgeworld has their Minotaurs

Relic has Blood Ravens

FFG games has the Stormwardens

Black Library is the only one I can think of that doesn't have their unique one

The Minotaurs aren't Forgeworld's, in the manner that Forgeworld created them. The Minotaurs date back to the old Rogue Trader days.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Minotaurs aren't Forgeworld's, in the manner that Forgeworld created them. The Minotaurs date back to the old Rogue Trader days.

Didn't say they did, I said they had their own chapter they play with, and forgeworld produces quite a bit of minotaur related fluff/units.

Rihgu wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:


"Tau's non existent weakness to CC" - what do you mean by this?

I think he means that Tau have so many anti-CC tools in their arsenal that, even though their models aren't actually good *IN* CC, they don't have a weakness to CC.

Yup. It's a weakness comparable to morale for Space Marines; it can screw you over, but you've got plenty of stuff to minimise the effect (unless you're Chaos or BT, but that's another story).

There is only two things Ive haven't really liked about allies, I play imperial guard so yes i can pretty much ally with anyone but the only models i buy are guard. anyway, yes i can take away challenges easily with help from another army. ( close combat guys with good armour saves come to mind) but i don't and I deal with what i got, ( which I'm not complaining about guard i know have a lot) i enjoy the challenge and enjoy being humans with no special powers or buffs, just big guns and a lot of them.
I also dont like the fact that guard had there own thing, no other army could really pull off the special things some guard units could do at a reasonable point level, with allies Ive seen plenty of blob squads with spam auto cannons and a commissar sitting on an objective, and melta vets flying around in vendettas, and tank/ artillery squadrons in plenty of peoples armies, personally i dont enjoy playing as much knowing my opponent has the same tricks up his sleeve as me and plus some.
Im probably one of the least competitive players around but i love the background and fluff of each army and battle. i personally don't go out of my way to learn all the rules from other codexs, i enjoy being surprised in battles from some crazy power that a daemon has or a cannon that the tau has, i feel it adds realism to the game. an extra element to account for.
so now i still play guard but i mainly play death korps of krieg, no one has my rules and i dont ally with anyone, im sure i could even though they are not technically in the ally matrix but death Korps of Krieg barely like fighting with other guardsmen anyway and other guard forces dont like fighting with death korps of krieg because they tend to be trigger happy an sometimes ignorant of the total strategy. so i just avoid other armies and try pull things off on my own.
Remember
The Emperor Protects!
Thanks for reading!

 PrinceRaven wrote:

I would so worship Eldar catgirl lolita Emperor over rotting skeleton in a gold toilet Emperor any day.

Sigged

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Then you should've played 40k before they removed allies.

I've been playing since Rogue Trader days and my genestealer cult and chaos armies. I DESPISED allies in 2nd edition because there were very few controls on them aside from a percentage of your army. Of course forces in general had the same problem as well, but allies just were readily open to abuse. I dislike the way allies have been implemented now because there seems to be no rhyme or reason for how the allies table was created. It doesn't work with the fluff and it isn't really balanced for all armies either, so we get a mish mash of some armies having numerous good opportunties on the table and others having zero allies at all. I could support it either fluffy or balanced, but not the mess it is. Of course we often still played allies in our games if we came up with a good scenario to play them. Either they were two smaller forces taken by two players on that side of the table, or one play had multiple FoCs in their force, one for each army. It worked fine, but then my group isn't one for WAAC gaming as we've all been doing this for multiple decades now and WAAC just gets dull after a while.

So one doesn't have to have been exposed to allies in the past to accept them fine now. I've been there and done that and still find the allies table a perfect example of interesting idea implemented as dumbly as possible. Even something as simple as making allies *optional* and needing opponent approval would go a long way towards cutting down on the obvious abuses people use them for. Of course in that instance some people would always refuse to play againt allies no matter what, so would still not be a perfect approach.

Skriker