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 schadenfreude wrote:
Faeit 212 thinks the sky is falling withthe full 100% squatting of bretonians, wood elves, beastmen, and tomb kings. All 4 completely removed from the game and future production halted.

Which is also unlikely

40K Radio wrote:I don't know which is worse: the website saying Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Bretonnians are being discontinued or the people believing it. Calm down folks. According to our pretty damn reliable source Wood Elves are just around the corner. Enjoy your weekend.
-Rik

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=642837509085441&id=147396461962884&stream_ref=10


I am inclined to go with 40K Radio on past performance with Wood Elves possible the next army after Dwarfs (in Q2?).

Armies of Men, Armies of Bad Men, Armies of Weirdos, Armies of Bad Weirdos.

WFB streamlined.

YOU'RE WELCOME.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I wouldn't say "neutral", but rather more "elemental" would work for Wood Elves, Lizardmen, and Ogre Kingdoms.
All three are forces that aren't strictly good or evil, but rather they are just there.

So lizardmen are “not strictly good” but empire is “strictly good”, just because empire is humans and lizardmen are not ?
Empire citizen mostly either care only for themselves, or for the empire as a whole, or for humanity as a whole, but they definitely do not care about the lizardmen just like the lizardmen do not care about them.
Except that some citizens of the empire are regularly trying to steal artifacts from the lizardmen, while lizardmen do not invade the empire. Once in a while, a slann might create an earthquake in the empire, but never out of ill will or greed !
Citizens of the empire are much more likely to stab each other in the back, turn to chaos, be greedy bastards, commit useless bloodshed out of zealotry, and all that, than lizardmen.
I don't see how even High Elves could be considered more “strictly good” than lizardmen, actually.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Well, I've talked to stores and ex-GW guys, and Empire (and, presumably Brets, though I didn't inquire about them) were always bottom, despite many massive (costly and futile) attempts to boost them.

The best placing I ever found for them online was 8th, though I think that is "higher" than they usually rank.

Spoiler:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
From the man who put up a chart with Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms as a major seller... Priceless...

The new Ogre stuff sold pretty well where I live. The old stuff didn't, though. Too much floating around on eBay. Still, I haven't seen a TK army on a game table in... well... ever.

But, yea, I got a laugh out of that chart, too.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Faeit 212 thinks the sky is falling withthe full 100% squatting of bretonians, wood elves, beastmen, and tomb kings. All 4 completely removed from the game and future production halted.

Which is also unlikely

40K Radio wrote:I don't know which is worse: the website saying Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Bretonnians are being discontinued or the people believing it. Calm down folks. According to our pretty damn reliable source Wood Elves are just around the corner. Enjoy your weekend.
-Rik

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=642837509085441&id=147396461962884&stream_ref=10


I am inclined to go with 40K Radio on past performance with Wood Elves possible the next army after Dwarfs (in Q2?).

I could see GW thinking about it and leaking it to test for community backlash. A more likely scenario is they move those armies to fw, continue to update and produce, but no longer stock in stores and make them special order like sisters of battle.

FW are too busy hand casting their precious FineMarines™ To keep up with the Fantasy ranges they do have, I doubt moving others across would result in any sort of update any time soon?

 schadenfreude wrote:
Faeit 212 thinks the sky is falling withthe full 100% squatting of bretonians, wood elves, beastmen, and tomb kings. All 4 completely removed from the game and future production halted.

Well, he doesn't necessarily think that. If you look at his rumour round-up, he rates that one two out of five stars. In fact, from what I've seen, most people seem to be various shades of unconvinced on that one.

 Zweischneid wrote:

40K Radio wrote:I don't know which is worse: the website saying Wood Elves, Tomb Kings, Beastmen, and Bretonnians are being discontinued or the people believing it. Calm down folks. According to our pretty damn reliable source Wood Elves are just around the corner. Enjoy your weekend.
-Rik

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=642837509085441&id=147396461962884&stream_ref=10


I am inclined to go with 40K Radio on past performance with Wood Elves possible the next army after Dwarfs (in Q2?).

Ah, that's nice to hear. Yeah, 40K radio is generally quite accurate, so I guess this guy has been discredited, somewhat. Thanks for sharing.

GW is slowly going to cut more and more now that their world has come crashing down. They need to stall some more to manipulate the numbers for "positive" financial reports to the shareholders. In the next few years a lot more shocking stuff than Britonians are gonna get the axe.

I guess my plastic Sisters of Battle is looking less and less likely now. :(

 Harriticus wrote:
GW is slowly going to cut more and more now that their world has come crashing down. They need to stall some more to manipulate the numbers for "positive" financial reports to the shareholders. In the next few years a lot more shocking stuff than Britonians are gonna get the axe.

I am pretty sure PWC would catch them manipulating numbers. GW is only pennies in the bucket of revenue PWC has. If there is a change in auditor and you see them putting a mom & pop firm then I will be more than willing to believe they are cooking the books. The fact they have a big 4 firm auditing such a small company speaks volumes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as an FYI PWC is the bees knees of public accounting firms. Deloitte is great and all but they are quantity over quality. EY is great if health care is your industry. KPMG is great and have been rolling out their electronic working papers for the last couple of years while everyone else is on v2 or v3. PWC is the most technically competent and prides itself on a higher quality of audit work. Opt here are other smaller firms like McG's or GT but they don't hold a candle to the big 4 in terms of resources or knowledge.

boyd wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW is slowly going to cut more and more now that their world has come crashing down. They need to stall some more to manipulate the numbers for "positive" financial reports to the shareholders. In the next few years a lot more shocking stuff than Britonians are gonna get the axe.

I am pretty sure PWC would catch them manipulating numbers. GW is only pennies in the bucket of revenue PWC has. If there is a change in auditor and you see them putting a mom & pop firm then I will be more than willing to believe they are cooking the books. The fact they have a big 4 firm auditing such a small company speaks volumes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as an FYI PWC is the bees knees of public accounting firms. Deloitte is great and all but they are quantity over quality. EY is great if health care is your industry. KPMG is great and have been rolling out their electronic working papers for the last couple of years while everyone else is on v2 or v3. PWC is the most technically competent and prides itself on a higher quality of audit work. Opt here are other smaller firms like McG's or GT but they don't hold a candle to the big 4 in terms of resources or knowledge.

He doesn't mean fudging the books, he means cutting anything that isn't highly profitable to cut costs and make it look like the company is still ahead. (I'm assuming, it's what they've been doing for a while now.)
Less product sold means less cashflow but if they stop spending money too then they can make it look ok to people glancing at their finacial reports.

I think he meant "manipulate" not as "cooking the books", but rather even more aggressively cutting expenses to keep from looking less profitable overall (even if it hurts the business).

That's what I meant yes, and it's what's GW's going to do. They're going to cut things based purely on numbers without understanding the long-term consequences of how it will affect their market. Huge amounts of fantasy products/races, SoB, LOTR, medium-sized 40k kits, printed books are all gonna go bye bye in the next few years. Meanwhile GW will try to make FW products standard in hopes of their higher-end kits will sell more (i.e. see GW heavily markets Titans in the future) and will turn the BL into exclusively producing cheap hardcover limited edition anthology novella BS and phase out TPB's to justify absurdly high costs for said books. Ultimately BL will de facto shut down as GW phases out any new novels in favor of cheaply made overpriced reprints of their extensive past publications. WD will Balkanize into many separate periodicals all priced the same, in hopes customers will be dumb enough to pay 2-3 times the price for the same product they got before. This will extend to codex's as well, with "supplements" and "dataslates" becoming vital to operate an army and released shortly after/along with any codex release. "Part 1" and "Part 2" codex releases will emerge as well. I suspect down the line all brick-and-mortar stores are going to go too, GW already more or less has ended their stores as it is with this one man limited operating hours no gaming nonsense. Ultimately, I foresee an end to Warhammer Fantasy entirely as the last final desperate act of GW along with other armies like Dark Eldar and Tau getting terminated.

Keep in mind since the LOTR bubble GW has largely been manipulating numbers like this through price hikes, heavy cuts (stores, staff, specialist games, etc.), and short-sighted policy changes (deliberately trying to drive away gamers, manipulating what's in a model box/army books to force people to buy more, etc.) rather than actually growing a sustainable business model. However GW has hit the absolute limit of what it can cut to still look outwardly in good shape, so they're going to get more desperate

Basically this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The Tyranids dex is a glimpse of the future in terms of quality. It was designed around spiting costumers and smaller businesses by phasing out third party products without GW having to produce said products themselves, and pushes gamers to buy even more models to be even remotely competitive.

So sayeth the prophet of doom

 Harriticus wrote:
That's what I meant yes, and it's what's GW's going to do. They're going to cut things based purely on numbers without understanding the long-term consequences of how it will affect their market. Huge amounts of fantasy products/races, SoB, LOTR, medium-sized 40k kits, printed books are all gonna go bye bye in the next few years. Meanwhile GW will try to make FW products standard in hopes of their higher-end kits will sell more (i.e. see GW heavily markets Titans in the future) and will turn the BL into exclusively producing cheap hardcover limited edition anthology novella BS and phase out TPB's to justify absurdly high costs for said books. Ultimately BL will de facto shut down as GW phases out any new novels in favor of cheaply made overpriced reprints of their extensive past publications. WD will Balkanize into many separate periodicals all priced the same, in hopes customers will be dumb enough to pay 2-3 times the price for the same product they got before. This will extend to codex's as well, with "supplements" and "dataslates" becoming vital to operate an army and released shortly after/along with any codex release. "Part 1" and "Part 2" codex releases will emerge as well. I suspect down the line all brick-and-mortar stores are going to go too, GW already more or less has ended their stores as it is with this one man limited operating hours no gaming nonsense. Ultimately, I foresee an end to Warhammer Fantasy entirely as the last final desperate act of GW along with other armies like Dark Eldar and Tau getting terminated.

I'd say that's what GW has already done. Cost cutting and price raising have been the solution for years. This is finally the year where the numbers have suffered for it. It's a little painful reading the report and seeing that they're planning on getting out of the funk with more of the same.

Keep in mind since the LOTR bubble GW has largely been manipulating numbers like this through price hikes, heavy cuts (stores, staff, specialist games, etc.), and short-sighted policy changes (deliberately trying to drive away gamers, manipulating what's in a model box/army books to force people to buy more, etc.) rather than actually growing a sustainable business model. However GW has hit the absolute limit of what it can cut to still look outwardly in good shape, so they're going to get more desperate

Cost cutting isn't always bad. GW cut a lot of fat, but they cut deep into their core at the same time. One man stores are a blight on any kind of sustainable business. GW stores should be able to support the hobby, and where they can't, GW should instead provide support to help LGS nurture the hobby. It's not anywhere near as clear as you paint the picture though - there was a combination of good decisions and bad decisions that have happened in cutting the fat since the LOTR bubble broke.

decker_cky wrote:
Cost cutting isn't always bad. GW cut a lot of fat, but they cut deep into their core at the same time. One man stores are a blight on any kind of sustainable business. GW stores should be able to support the hobby, and where they can't, GW should instead provide support to help LGS nurture the hobby. It's not anywhere near as clear as you paint the picture though - there was a combination of good decisions and bad decisions that have happened in cutting the fat since the LOTR bubble broke.

Since the LOTR bubble burst?
Sure
In the last couple of years?
All GW have been cutting lately is muscle and bone.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Since the LOTR bubble burst?
Sure
In the last couple of years?
All GW have been cutting lately is muscle and bone.

Don't disagree. The post I was replying to was making broad statements in the vein of cost cutting being a pure bad (false, the early cost cutting that moved GW back into the black seemed quite sensible), and was tracking that bad cost cutting right back to the LOTR bubble.

GW has cut a lot of core and goodwill generating parts of their Hobby(tm) over the past few years. At some point, management will change and the policy will be to grow the hobby, but it looks like it will be a very painful transition to get on that path again. The fact is, that GW needs there to be healthy gaming communities to grow the game organically. That means that they need some attention on keeping veterans, and growing gaming clubs again.

decker_cky wrote:
GW has cut a lot of core and goodwill generating parts of their Hobby(tm) over the past few years. At some point, management will change and the policy will be to grow the hobby, but it looks like it will be a very painful transition to get on that path again. The fact is, that GW needs there to be healthy gaming communities to grow the game organically. That means that they need some attention on keeping veterans, and growing gaming clubs again.

What makes you think GW will do this instead of continuing to run themselves into the ground?

That there is what they need to do to turn it around but they have shown time and again they don't care about any of that. They think they are selling toys to kids, nerds are gross, adults who buy their product are weirdos and that we are all sheep who will buy anything they produce. They also think that very few people ever actually play the game, we are not gamers we are collectors. We don't need a community to collect things.

So far GWs reactions to the latest report have been to continue on the same path but faster than before.

Mick A wrote:Firstly, if fantasy humans didn't sell they wouldn't have been included in most of the Warhammer starter boxes

I just want to address this point for a second - where are you getting the idea that "fantasy humans" have been in most of th3 starter sets from?

4th edition - High Elves vs Goblins
5th edition - Brets vs Lizardmen
6th edition - Empire vs Orcs & Goblins
7th edition - Dwarves vs Goblins
8th edition - High Elves vs Skaven

AFAIK there wasn't a starter set for 3rd ed, which leaves "fantasy humans" with twonslots out of ten, and not for the last 2 editions. Orcs & Goblins are, in fact, the most common component of a starter set, in terms of race.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I guess my plastic Sisters of Battle is looking less and less likely now. :(

Why? They still need to make models, that's one of their main things. Maybe we won't get the whole range upgraded to plastic, but I don't see why some plastics for the Sisters are so unlikely.

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I guess my plastic Sisters of Battle is looking less and less likely now. :(

Why? They still need to make models, that's one of their main things. Maybe we won't get the whole range upgraded to plastic, but I don't see why some plastics for the Sisters are so unlikely.

They most likely won't make model, especially plastics, for lines that aren't selling as well. Plastic molds are expensive, why spend hundreds of thousands on SoB molds for an entire army that won't pay for themselves for another 20 years when you can spend half that paying for molds for a few new kits for space marine chapter X which will pay for themselves in one tenth the time?

 jonolikespie wrote:
They most likely won't make model, especially plastics, for lines that aren't selling as well.

Their digital codex sold well, so GW can see that there's sufficient interest in the SoB.

And the reason the SoB line didn't sell well was because it was all-metal and direct-order only. Of course it's had issues.

 jonolikespie wrote:
when you can spend half that paying for molds for a few new kits for space marine chapter X which will pay for themselves in one tenth the time?

By that logic, why do anything except Space Marines? Every army gets model updates, regardless of popularity. The Sisters only lack such updates due to modelling issues, issues which may now be possible to fix.

 Troike wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
They most likely won't make model, especially plastics, for lines that aren't selling as well.

Their digital codex sold well, so GW can see that there's sufficient interest in the SoB.

And the reason the SoB line didn't sell well was because it was all-metal and direct-order only. Of course it's had issues.

I know that. You know that. Heck, we ALL know that. But GW doesn't know that.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I know that. You know that. Heck, we ALL know that. But GW doesn't know that.

How do we know that they don't know that? For all we know, they may know.

They have tried to get the Sisters into plastic before, so they do want to upgrade the SoB model range. This in itself would imply that they're aware that plastics would be an improvement over their current situation.

Troike it's all well and good to apply logic to a situation and assume GW will do what would in all likelihood net them greater sales/revenue, but GW have a long track record of doing just the opposite, paying a dividend and calling it a day.

Though they also have a track record of releasing new models for armies, even when such a release was arguably a bit "iffy" (e.g, DE, apparently the Necrons at some point). All I'm theorising here is that they'll continue their default behaviour, especially since they've attempted to update the SoB models before anyway.

But, ultimately, we'll just have to wait and see. Personally, I'm not expecting to hear anything substantial for a while anyway. Maybe at the end of this year.

 Dysartes wrote:

Mick A wrote:Firstly, if fantasy humans didn't sell they wouldn't have been included in most of the Warhammer starter boxes

I just want to address this point for a second - where are you getting the idea that "fantasy humans" have been in most of th3 starter sets from?

4th edition - High Elves vs Goblins
5th edition - Brets vs Lizardmen
6th edition - Empire vs Orcs & Goblins
7th edition - Dwarves vs Goblins
8th edition - High Elves vs Skaven

AFAIK there wasn't a starter set for 3rd ed, which leaves "fantasy humans" with twonslots out of ten, and not for the last 2 editions. Orcs & Goblins are, in fact, the most common component of a starter set, in terms of race.

Uh, no...that's two out of five spots. They appeared in two boxes out of five. You're including all slots in each box instead of each box as its own thing. Also, rumor is Empire for 9th, which would give them a resounding "half". Greenskins get a better deal, but since 6th was orcs only, 4th&7th were both goblin only. Book-wise it puts empire in 2nd (if 9th rumors are correct), but race wise they're right up at the top.

I'd say maybe by the end of year 2083, or something. Earlier seems too early.
I mean, it took 8 years for the Apollo program to succeed in landing men safely on the moon, and then bring them back safely on earth. You can not expect GW to do something as difficult as Sisters of Battle plastic models any less than ten times slower than something as easy a landing men on the moon and then back, can you ?

This is a GREAT topic, but I don't have time to backread it today. Forgive me, I'm just subscribing in at this point to be plugged into the convo and I'll come back to it later.

I have lots of figure sculpting to do this weekend, but I HAVE a concern about Bretonnians and their future.

And I HAVE a question for those who collect Brets.

Are Brets likely to be discontinued outright? I LIKE the idea of the rumored "Kingdoms of Man" army book instead. If it contains Brets as a force selection side by side with Empire etc, that makes perfect sense to me.

But is the Bretonnian line getting squeezed out of production?

I'M CONSIDERING MAKING A SUPPLEMENTAL LINE OF QUALITY BRETONNIAN STYLED FIGURES TO BE RELEASED IN 2015.

What is currently on the market is mostly of the wrong scale or otherwise not a good match. Which is odd considering that Medieval Knights and Peasants are fairly public domain material.

How many would see that as a product people would collect?

If GW leaves the Bret line unsupported because it doesn't make enough scratch for THEM, then it is a market Niche I'd happily fill if the buyership is there.

The "ARTHURIANA Miniature Line" could start right here and now in this thread....

Opinions?

Well, I wouldn't make promises, but I will state the following.

I have no strong desire to play WHFB right now, but do not exclude the possibility in the future (my fantasy itch get's largely scratched by Mierce just now)

If I were to start a WHFB army, it would absolutely be Bretts or WE.

If I were to start a WHFB army, I would absolutely seek out models I felt offered better value or better quality, I am not price averse if I feel the sculpt is good enough. I do not boycott GW, but I seldom find miniatures on offer from them I find of suitable quality for the price they ask.

If Bretts never receive another rules update! I am unlikely to ever start WHFB.

Do with that info what you will.