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The new Codex shed variety and function, and offers very little to compensate. Overall, it's a slight nerf in overall effectiveness, and a bit of a slap to the face to anyone who had gone to the trouble of converting up artillery tanks, or who ran a build that hinged on the abilities of one of the cut special characters.

Is it the end of Astra Militarum/Guard? No, but it's a boring book, and the disdain that it receives is largely justified.

I'm pleased with the power level of the codex relative to its peers, and, leafing through some of the fluff, it seems to be of a slightly higher quality than the 5th edition's. So on the whole, I'm pleased.

But I agree that that there is no "positive" spin you can put on the removal of special characters and units. Reduced options is *always* a bad thing, regardless of their necessity or effectiveness. The Imperial Guard "world" got a little bit smaller, and that's sad.

I wouldn't say the codex is nerfed . They do force people away from playing with more then two vendettas and force to play more blob and either ally for divination , or own psykers for divination . GW also forces us to use more russes then we did in the last codex. We sure aren't as good as eldar or tau , but there are the no cover orders which are nice for 1-2 turns and we make some wicked ally for a Knight army. I think sob or marines could like a big blob and some russes as anchor unit too .

Priests are nice and bring extra plasma guns with them.

The only problems is points , if vendettas didn't go up in points or if there were other ways to get AA , we could bring on all the cool stuff like good armies. Right now we have to play either with vendettas and have a lot less points for stuff or without them and hope we will never face flyers or av 13+ stuff.

Makumba wrote:

The only problems is points , if vendettas didn't go up in points or if there were other ways to get AA , we could bring on all the cool stuff like good armies. Right now we have to play either with vendettas and have a lot less points for stuff or without them and hope we will never face flyers or av 13+ stuff.

Did you really just argue that the Vendetta is the only cost-effective anti-AV13 in the entire Codex?

Now my english is not the best or even good, but am sure that should be said was and not is . It was the only cost effective anti av13+ in the entire codex. Right now there are no optimal anti av13+ options for IG.

You have to be trolling.

Uh, the army that can take 4 drop melta squads per elites slot? S10 ordnance in heavy support? Meltaguns in transports in hq and troops? Fast melta tanks and outflanking lascannons in fa? Some of it may be less hilariously cheap than 3 tl lascannons for 130 pts, but the guard still have maybe the best ant-tank in the game

I'm very, very disappointed that rough riders are nerfed to the point of not even fluffy games. I couldn't care to much about marbo, even though it would've been nice to "Counts-as" as assassin with him. But i suspect he'll come flying back with a catachan dex

While the new models are interesting, I don't understand the doubling down on Ogryns. They didn't make them astoundingly better, except they can grant better cover saves. Given to do that it makes them crazy pricy, but it's there.

Just seemed like a missed opportunity to make something like rough riders into a dual kit and adding a speed element to the army versus some tubbynators that don't do a whole lot.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
I'm very, very disappointed that rough riders are nerfed to the point of not even fluffy games. I couldn't care to much about marbo, even though it would've been nice to "Counts-as" as assassin with him. But i suspect he'll come flying back with a catachan dex

No supplement has given us new characters, just ways to make "count-as" through wargear.

DarknessEternal wrote:Marbo excluded, because he had to go

I don't even know what to say to this.

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Not to mention, why even keep harker if you're gonna make him pointless?

Snuh? Is your copy of the codex different than mine? Harker isn't pointless.

Somewhat different, but pretty far from pointless.

He costs 55 points, so he is therefore not "pointless." He does, however, add almost nothing but an incredible overpriced heavy bolter to an army that has an almost infinite amount of better options to take in place of him.

You used to at least be able to use him to get a 2+ cover save and outflank/infiltrate, but the new codex writers apparently decided to tape a blinking red goal light to his face and make him way less sneaky. He is, in a less literal sense of the word, pointless.

ThunderFury wrote:I'm very, very disappointed that rough riders are nerfed to the point of not even fluffy games.

Rough riders actually got better with this codex. At least they got their proper +S and +I back again. The only way they're worse than the original, non-FAQ print is that they're no longer Ap2, but that describes power weapons in general these days.

The problem with rough riders is 6th edition more than it is with rough riders. They probably could have used a boost, risking that they would become overpowered in 7th undoes a bunch of what 6th did, but that was probably a pretty low risk.

It is interesting, now, though, how they compete with mechvets for being a way to quickly deliver a pair of special weapons somewhere.

-Loki- wrote:You have to be trolling.

Makuba trolling? I knew there was a reason he was on my ignore list.

TheKbob wrote:I don't understand the doubling down on Ogryns.

Especially since they also reduced the number of artillery pieces in the process.

I suppose at least it's adding in new units, instead of making it just a straight loss.

DarknessEternal wrote:Yes, this codex was mostly points shuffling and re-balancing, but it all trended for the positive.

Which is really all I wanted. All I wanted from them was to just not screw it up. The old guard codex was good, and I didn't want Ward to come in and decide it needed to go in an entirely different direction and ruin everything.

Keep things the same, with perhaps shoring up some of the worse units. Which is pretty much what I got, over all.

He's the same price he used to be but doesn't benefit the unit he's taken for other than adding another gun better than a lasgun. The reason I say he's pointless (not refferring to his cost) is that before, there was a point in taking him in a vet squad, now there is no point and the cost remains the same. If you enjoy muscular looking men I suppose there would be a point, or benefit in taking him. I don't share that perspective.

As much as I personally dislike it, the AM codex is a great codex if you run lots of tanks or blobs of infantry. The new rules can be used to make very powerful formations of each.

But as someone who ran a combined arms force, and actually used Penal Squads, as well as three of the SCs who got dropped (Marbo, Al'Rahem, and Mogul Kamir) I don't have a very high opinion of it. I do think that a player new to the game who is intersted in IG would be satisfied with the potential power output of the army, provided they went with a blob or tank build.

 Crablezworth wrote:
He's the same price he used to be but doesn't benefit the unit he's taken for other than adding another gun better than a lasgun. The reason I say he's pointless (not refferring to his cost) is that before, there was a point in taking him in a vet squad, now there is no point and the cost remains the same. If you enjoy muscular looking men I suppose there would be a point, or benefit in taking him. I don't share that perspective.

I thought playing an army of buff men was half the reason to play Catachan.

And yes, he lacks a real "point" for his points cost to be put into a unit. I'd rather slap Storm Bolters on everything than take him honestly.

Don't forget Sentinels. They're viable now.
Oh, and Deathstrikes. They're usable too.
Manticores are still awesome.
Also Vendettas and Valks.

Sounds a bit more than tanks and blobs.

There is very little in the book I'd consider "not viable": Rough Riders, Harker, Executioners without Prescience support...and probably Straken.

Otherwise the book is looking pretty good overall. Some of the restrictions went away (Ogryns can roll with Priests now for instance), points decreases over most of the book helped make more variations of things viable and generally I feel this book has some good stuff in it, it's just a matter of finding the new balance.

Then again I feel that a codex deserves a good shakedown and people get some games in before we decry it as horrible so take that with salt.

The loss of units is never good, and while I get some of it (the FW stuff that should have been ported over in full or not at all) the characters doesn't make as much sense.

My only guess there is there was an issue getting the molds for them refreshed or the dev team didn't have the kind of time they needed to really do anything interesting with the characters.

You can still use executioners without prescience. Yes, it's more dangerous, but that's why they lopped 50 points off the price tag.

 Ailaros wrote:
You can still use executioners without prescience. Yes, it's more dangerous, but that's why they lopped 50 points off the price tag.

And one bad turn of shooting later enjoy your slagged tank. Even worse if you take the plasma-sponsons.

If they could buy and Ivul at least they could potentially negate Gets Hot, but as they are I wouldn't run one unsupported unless Pask was in it just so I could use the Large Blast instead (only risking 1 Hull Point a shot instead that way).

It would have to be a pretty damned bad round of shooting. You'd have to roll 3 1's, and then you'd have to roll a 1-3 three times in a row. The chance you blow yourself up in a single round of shooting is .027. Put another way, this happens, on average once every 37 times you shoot the main weapon.

You'll probably have this happen like once or twice a year with regular play.

And you're forgetting, vehicles already have a save against gets hot.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can still use executioners without prescience. Yes, it's more dangerous, but that's why they lopped 50 points off the price tag.

And one bad turn of shooting later enjoy your slagged tank. Even worse if you take the plasma-sponsons.

1 in 532 isn't exactly dangerous considering the firepower it puts out.

Oh, no, you're right, it's cubed. But wait, that's once every 1754 times you shoot, and that's not right. Why am I derping so badly today?

Honestly, I'm not sure I did that right, but regardless the odds are pretty silly. People still use Psykers despite the (comparatively) massive 1/18 risk of Perils of the Warp.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can still use executioners without prescience. Yes, it's more dangerous, but that's why they lopped 50 points off the price tag.

And one bad turn of shooting later enjoy your slagged tank. Even worse if you take the plasma-sponsons.

1 in 532 isn't exactly dangerous considering the firepower it puts out.

Right, but a "bad round" can come after already losing a couple hull points resulting in you wrecking yourself too.

I just have trouble putting something on the table that help kill itself I suppose.

I do like the model though.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I just have trouble putting something on the table that help kill itself I suppose.

That is just what Imperial plasma is like, you pay for it's power with either points or blood. Personally, I like getting powerful weapons by risking my own men's lives. It seems very Guard-like to me. Just one of those things that comes down to personal preference I suppose.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I just have trouble putting something on the table that help kill itself I suppose.

That is just what Imperial plasma is like, you pay for it's power with either points or blood. Personally, I like getting powerful weapons by risking my own men's lives. It seems very Guard-like to me. Just one of those things that comes down to personal preference I suppose.

I'm playing a game tomorrow and I'll be rocking three executioners.

The only reason being my other Russes are vanilla or demolishers, and I'm not a fan of how Ordnance works against them.

I'll report back my findings. Only bringing one divination slave too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can still use executioners without prescience. Yes, it's more dangerous, but that's why they lopped 50 points off the price tag.

And one bad turn of shooting later enjoy your slagged tank. Even worse if you take the plasma-sponsons.

1 in 532 isn't exactly dangerous considering the firepower it puts out.

Right, but a "bad round" can come after already losing a couple hull points resulting in you wrecking yourself too.

I just have trouble putting something on the table that help kill itself I suppose.

I do like the model though.

By that logic you shouldn't ever play anything that's got a Leadership value, because you might run off the table (yes, even Fearless thingies).

 Trickstick wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I just have trouble putting something on the table that help kill itself I suppose.

That is just what Imperial plasma is like, you pay for it's power with either points or blood. Personally, I like getting powerful weapons by risking my own men's lives. It seems very Guard-like to me. Just one of those things that comes down to personal preference I suppose.

Fair enough. I'm still really used to playing Sisters where when I start losing my Exorcists things go downhill as that's my only real long ranged shooting that can effectively threaten things. Guard have a lot more options so I sometimes struggle to get my head around that.

Omg everyone fails at math.

Perils of the warp = 1/18 attempts

Executioner gets hot = 1/6 per shot, lose a hull point 1/12 shots fired. 3 shots per turn, average 0.25 hull points per turn. Way more dangerous than perils of the warp. Won't kill the tank outright, but will likely damage itself at least once per game, 50% chance to do two HPs in a 6 turn battle.

Gets hot is more dangerous than perils of the warp.

In a single round of shooting without sponsons:

Chance of inflicting:

0 HP = 77%
1 HP = 21%
2 HP = 2%
3 HP = 0.06%

With sponsons:
0 HP = 64.7%
1 HP = 29.4%
2 HP = 5.3%
3 HP = 0.5%

Over the course of 4 turns of shooting without sponsons:
0 HP = 35.2%
1 HP = 38.4%
2 HP = 17.2%
3 HP = 7.2%

Over the course of 4 turns of shooting with sponsons:
0 HP = 17.5%
1 HP = 31.2%
2 HP = 27.6%
3 HP = 23%

So if you take a plasma tank with or without sponsons, most games you are going to inflict at least some damage on yourself (unless the enemy kills you first). If you take sponsons, if you fire 4 turns in a game, you have a 1 in 4 chance of killing your own tank even if your enemy does nothing, lol.

There's a reason a lot of people stopped taking plasma sponsons previously, they're quite risky.