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That stumpy legged metal box is a fallen hero of the space marines brought back to do war in the Emperor's name once more, and has been unable to do this for fear of getting mulched even in the close combat scenario they were built for.

If you're going to complain, do it about mechanics where you've a leg to stand on.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
That stumpy legged metal box is a fallen hero of the space marines brought back to do war in the Emperor's name once more, and has been unable to do this for fear of getting mulched even in the close combat scenario they were built for.

If you're going to complain, do it about mechanics where you've a leg to stand on.

Now the Bloodthirster is terrified of engaging in a fight with any Dreadnought, if not for being killed (he probably won't) but because of the massive amounts of time the Dreadnought will waste and the wounds the Bloodthirster will suffer in the fight, if it's a Furioso dreadnought with blood claws, the Bloodthirster has a very good chance of outright losing to the much cheaper Dreadnought. The Trygon (which is well over twice the size of a Dreadnought), due to it's lack of invulnerable save and worse WS, is even more reluctant to face a dreadnought when it really should be able to fling the Dreadnought around like a toy rather than impotently slap at it.

Honestly I'd be happier if the Trygon just got buffed.

For something meant to be huge and terrifying it's too...middling.

A bloodthirster also has a good chance at turning most other mcs inside out with instant death 6's, twice the movement of a dread, can mulch infantry squads, and STILL one shot the dread with luck.

Nids are in a bad spot that just got worse, that I won't argue. But demons are hardly suffering horribly, and their nerfs are not entirely unwarranted. Bearing in mind that eldar absolutely don't care about these changes.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
A bloodthirster also has a good chance at turning most other mcs inside out with instant death 6's, twice the movement of a dread, can mulch infantry squads, and STILL one shot the dread with luck.

Nids are in a bad spot that just got worse, that I won't argue. But demons are hardly suffering horribly, and their nerfs are not entirely unwarranted. Bearing in mind that eldar absolutely don't care about these changes.

I've mentioned the last thing quite a bit. The only Eldar MC who particularly cares is the Avatar of Khaine, but he has a meltagun that can potentially be two shot to make up for it a little.

The space marine using part of me sees Contemptor dreads now being very good MC killers.

AV13 puts them out of the ability of most MCs to hurt them without resorting to smash and the little 6++ save can ward off a few hits.

In the meantime, plasma blasters can shave off a few wounds before the assault begins and give them a further leg up.

A bloodthirster would need a good deal of luck to kill the Contemptor (a whole heap of it) in while the Contemptor relentlessly pounds it's face.

 Kain wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I have been watching battle reports that disagree among competative players.

However if that is the stance you wish to stick with far be it from me to stop you.

Then again I used to win with a warrior themed list back in fifth against missile spam and blood angels so.

An anectdote from a person of note is still an anectdote.

I'm only interested in empirical evidence and empirical evidence shows that the Tyranids are low tier.

FMC spam is their only really strong feature.

Everything else is overly situational, like take the Haruspex for example; it's poor weight of attacks and WS rating means that it is incapable of chewing it's way through a horde unit, but it's strength value means it's no good against vehicles either, while it's WS and lack of an invulnerable save also precludes it from being a monster hunter either, but the WS value again prevents it from going after elites. So what's left for it to do? Chase after poor WS MSUs without invulnerable saves? Even Eldar aspect warriors aren't that overly narrow in their target band.

Furthermore, the lack of substantial options makes most Tyranid units lorebreakingly inflexible despite being the most mutable and adaptable faction in-universe. .

But of course GDubs will induce heavy handed and hamfisted retcons whenever it feels like it to sell more models. Because they don't care one iota for the setting and background beyond it being a profitable liscense, source of supplementary income and advertising vehicle.

No artistic passion exists in GW anymore outside of it's model sculpting department (and the existence of the heinously ugly Taurox seems to suggest even that's fading). All that's left is callous greed and rampant sloth.

To reward them with your money is to reward them for becoming everything a gaming company shouldn't be.

Lol, its not my job to try and help you find ways to enjoy your hobby, if you want to be miserable be miserable, I dont really care.

We have little to no empirical evidence for tyranids in 6th and we have none for 7th so you are basing your evidence on anecdotal just as much as I am, so dont pretend to be taking the scientific high ground.

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now imo. MC needed a nerf on the whole with their smashes. Yep, the nerf happened to be too strong probably but it doesn't instantly make them invalid. The nerf with mellee attacking after landing - well, it's what every other mellee guy faced in 6 ed with outflank and non-assault transports. Khorne zerks say hello from atop of a rhino.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.

And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now imo. MC needed a nerf on the whole with their smashes. Yep, the nerf happened to be too strong probably but it doesn't instantly make them invalid. The nerf with mellee attacking after landing - well, it's what every other mellee guy faced in 6 ed with outflank and non-assault transports. Khorne zerks say hello from atop of a rhino.

MCs didn't need a Smash nerf on top of the damage chart change. It does make most MCs unable to do anything against high AV vehicles.

S10 smash still hits as hard as a melta bomb but at initiative.
Not exactly terrible.

You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior

 minigun762 wrote:
S10 smash still hits as hard as a melta bomb but at initiative.
Not exactly terrible.

AP2 instead of 1. And not Armorbane. So... not at all like a Meltabomb.

Look out it's the Order of the White Knights!

 Leth wrote:
You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior

Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?

In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.

In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.

rigeld2 wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
S10 smash still hits as hard as a melta bomb but at initiative.
Not exactly terrible.

AP2 instead of 1. And not Armorbane. So... not at all like a Meltabomb.

You're right on AP2 but S10 with a reroll compares very well to S8 armor bane . Within a few % points .

 Leth wrote:
You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior

So instead of destroying its use at all, make it so you can only Smash vehicles.

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.

And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.

If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Look out it's the Order of the White Knights!

 Leth wrote:
You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior

Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?

In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.

In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.

great rules! now only mc can kill walkers in mellee. That's the spirit.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.

And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.

If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.

If GW's rules were so good, YMDC wouldn't be one of the biggest forums on the site. From my dabblings into law and my studies of game theory; if a game's rules have to be extensively argued and debated because they're not clear, they're bad rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Kain wrote:

*wall of text*

That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.

And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.

If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Look out it's the Order of the White Knights!

 Leth wrote:
You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior

Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?

In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.

In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.

great rules! now only mc can kill walkers in mellee. That's the spirit.

Chainfists, Powerfists, Thunderhammers, Haywires, Warscythes, Entropic Strikes, and Meltabombs generally still wreck most walkers even with forced rerolls to penetrate armor.

The threat that krak grenades pose is massively overstated.

Yep good luck killing an av14 (as you suggest) walker with a power fist.
Note, i didn't say that their rules are perfect. They're actually becoming better since the last edition.

Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep good luck killing an av14 (as you suggest) walker with a power fist.
Note, i didn't say that their rules are perfect. They're actually becoming better since the last edition.

S8 power fists are suboptimal against AV14 anyway.

The +1 or reroll to armor pen thing is an either or thing.

The latter is generally better against things that can still gen a pen against an AV one step up, the former has the benefit of being able to put a walker out of harm's way for anything that was only able to glance it, or make it only glanceable by something that was only penetrating it on a six.

Essentially the trade off between 6e tankhunters vs 5e tankhunters.

 minigun762 wrote:
Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.

Outstanding!

...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?

 techsoldaten wrote:

Outstanding!

...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?

Oh come on now. We're assuming a melee dreadnought. You didn't have to fly to get to it, it's coming to you.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Outstanding!

...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?

Oh come on now. We're assuming a melee dreadnought. You didn't have to fly to get to it, it's coming to you.

your FMC has to land the turn before you assault. no more assaulting the same turn you switch movement modes.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.

Outstanding!

...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?

The same as your entire army destroying the Dreadnought at range.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Outstanding!

...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?

Oh come on now. We're assuming a melee dreadnought. You didn't have to fly to get to it, it's coming to you.

your FMC has to land the turn before you assault. no more assaulting the same turn you switch movement modes.

Did you even read what you quoted?

Dreadnoughts are still going to be terrible in 7e most likely.

Their core problems revealed in 6e haven't really changed significantly from what we know of 7e:

Lack of Mobility. 6" move on a melee walker just ain't gonna cut it. You'll see Maulerfiends, but that's because they actually have the speed to get into combat by T2.
Lack of Ranged Durability. Dreadnoughts are still AV12 front with 3 HP and no defensive measures. Volume of S6-7 fire still totally ruins their day, and I don't see that changing up for a bit. Yeah, they got more survivable in melee, but if they can't get there, the problem remains. Maulerfiends at least get the 5++ and IWND.
Lack of Output. Basically all melee dreads except for the Blood Talons Furioso with Prescience are terrible at actually killing things. You've got, what, 2-3 WS4 attacks, so 1-2 hits. Yeah, that'll kill 1-2 chaff models, and you'll be still grinding your way through them till the end of the game. Against vehicles you'll do better, but that also means that you've gotten your 6" move walker into melee with a vehicle. Maulerfiends also avoid the problem by being able to get into CC with vehicles due to their speed.

The only dreads you saw people taking in 5e were either suicide Drop Pod MM dreads, or riflemen/psyflemen. You didn't even see those in 6e, because a single melta shot got less valuable in comparison to repeated glances, and the output of even psyflemen is just dwarfed by wave serpents, and they are blown away in ranged combat against them.

In 7e, I predict that you might see psyflemen dreadnoughts again because they'll add more dice to the GK magi-I mean psychic phase. An additional die to throw at your powers for a little more than 100 points, with some shooting output? Not the worst thing that you could be doing. But mixed or melee dreads? I doubt it. Maulerfiends, yes, because they dodge most of the issues that plague dreadnoughts.



As for MCs, you'll see even less melee ones, and about the same amount of ranged ones most likely. FMCs are harder to ground, so gunships are more effective. The Daemon Flying Circus list doesn't care about getting into melee, it's all about keeping their MCs out of danger as long as possible, and that's buffed in 7e it seems. I'm really sorry for Tyranids. Yeah, they may have a build for 7e which isn't that terrible (take all the FMCs you can and just shoot stuff all game) but their core problems of being a monobuild dex whose monobuild changes radically every edition is sad stuff.

Holy crap there are so many little changes in this book that are huge game changers.

I just want to know what the heck Daemons and Tyranids are supposed to do against Knight??
Both of those codexes literally have no good counters to Knights. An army that is virtually immune to two whole armies is extremely bad rules writing.

 herpguy wrote:
I just want to know what the heck Daemons and Tyranids are supposed to do against Knight??
Both of those codexes literally have no good counters to Knights. An army that is virtually immune to two whole armies is extremely bad rules writing.

Demons fly. Nids fly. Weak answers, but Knights can't shoot up but with strength 4.

herpguy: We spam the hell out of Hive Crones and electroshock grubs

4 Flyrants, 6 Hive Crones is going to be the go-to list for Tyranids in 7th.
I really hate how GW not only actively encourages spamming but also severely nerfs our non-spam lists.

The Daemon Flying Circus list doesn't care about getting into melee, it's all about keeping their MCs out of danger as long as possible, and that's buffed in 7e it seems

Daemon FMC is going to be a totally different beast now. To say they don't care about getting into melee is wrong. Their entire power comes from the fact that they can hide for the entire game and then go anywhere they want and do anything they want. Taking melee out of this equation limits their gameplay.

The changes to FMC not being able to charge after swooping seriously impacts their end game plays. No longer will they be able to charge on the last turn to take that objective off you without exposing themselves to a turn of fire first.

They are also no longer scoring whilst swooping so again they will not be able to score in the last turn as they once did.

Non contestable scoring troop choices are also going to pose a challenge. Even if your FMC changes to glide and gets with 3 of an objective, if there is an enemy troop choice there then there is nothing you can do.

Tzeentch Daemons without the gimoire and portal glyph care less about the smash rules than most though, as they can get easy access to st 8, which is enough vs most vehicles.