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Spoletta wrote:
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.

I have so many problems with comments like these.

Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our Eldar only local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.

Fixed dat for you.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

LD 8 is fine. Your opponent won't have much to fire back after a volley or two from the bikes. That's what people making your argument don't comprehend. Most Imperial heavy weapons have crap firepower anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.

I have so many problems with comments like these.

Why? As it stands, I would forfeit every game to this codex. There's no point in even bothering to try to beat it.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.

I have so many problems with comments like these.

I don't.

Bikes have too much firepower for their points. WK's are horrendously under costed.

Both of his desired fixes make sense.

Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

Martel732 wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

LD 8 is fine. Your opponent won't have much to fire back after a volley or two from the bikes. That's what people making your argument don't comprehend. Most Imperial heavy weapons have crap firepower anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
If an eldar player brings 1/3 bike and pays 395 for his WKs then i wouldn't be so much against playing him, no matter the list. Actually better that than WS spam.

I have so many problems with comments like these.

Why? As it stands, I would forfeit every game to this codex. There's no point in even bothering to try to beat it.

I can see wanting to auto-forfeit against Wraith or Scatbike spam, but against any Eldar? That's a tad unreasonable.

Yes, Eldar have great firepower. Yes, Eldar have excellent mobility. We are also almost universally T3, and while some units have a 2+ or 3+ save, most have a 4+ or worse. Our vehicles cap out at AV12/12/10.

Beating Eldar is a matter of board control and target prioritization, with a healthy dose of playing to the objective. Is it a hard matchup and a slog for some armies to beat? Yes. Are Eldar unbeatable? No.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

We have the stats - is it really that hard to look at them and say - yep that's broken? We all know that GW are increasingly useless at writing the actual rules.

Do we have to wait another 2 years like we had to with cheese serpents to even get them to approximate a normal unit in anyone else's codex.

I love my Wraith Knight model - paid loads of money to get a special commission job - that does not mean I want it to be a auto win unit........

There are plenty of other candidates for changes - Like say invisibility - but few are as overwhelming and blatant as the new Codex. We may even adopt some of the Aspect Warrior changes to our 6.5 rules but certainly not the fact that every single unit in the Codex got a boost or points drop...............

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.

Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I would say all you need to do is drop D to old distort and change bikes to 1/3.

That would solve almost all of the problems. They would still be super powerful but then it would actually be a game instead of

"how many 6's can you roll"

I still don't get the issue with bikes. They have to pay for every upgrade, and they're not super resilient. There still only an MEQ that fall back 3D6 when they fail morale.

If a player runs all scatter lasers, it's because he's going to try and stay as far away as possible. Which means he'll likely be hugging board edges. Throw some lascannons at him. Sure he can jink, but then he's snap firing next round and is not so scary anyway. Or he can take the casualties, take a leadership test, and disappear off of the board.

Let's not forget that their sergeant type upgrade, although very good, doesn't increase their leadership at all.

This would make sense if the Scatter Laser was a 25 point upgrade to a 25 point unit, in line with the costs of other weapons upgrades and units with similar capabilities. As it is, it's a 10 point upgrade on an already undercosted 17 point model. The whole platform is 27 points. That's the problem. If a Scatterbike was 50 points nobody would be complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Come on this all makes no sense.
Have we ever asked a CSM player to play fair? The issue of Helldrakes.
The same here. We will play our local tourneys without any restriction applying to Eldar only.

I see what you're saying, and I agree with you that every codex has at least one unit that is very strong. The main issues here are internal balance, and which roles those strong units play. Following your example, Heldrakes had a number of limitations that made spamming them a risky proposition.

Heldrakes were murder on MEQs but couldn't touch a lot of vehicles, and if your list was loaded with 5 Heldrakes you'd have other problems as the rest of your army gets tabled before they arrive, with them depending so heavily on Reserves rolls. And, as Ailaros demonstrated with his Power Armor Khorne Berzerker list, even against their most desirable targets, Heldrakes aren't even close to autowin. The problem units in the Eldar codex are numerous, and have very few real drawbacks. And there's no issue with spamming the hell out of them because they don't have the limitations of units like the Heldrake. Scatterbikes can handle anything that isn't AV13 or 14 while scoring the objectives the entire time, while Strength D Scythes are good against literally everything.

"I can see wanting to auto-forfeit against Wraith or Scatbike spam, but against any Eldar? That's a tad unreasonable.

Yes, Eldar have great firepower. Yes, Eldar have excellent mobility. We are also almost universally T3, and while some units have a 2+ or 3+ save, most have a 4+ or worse. Our vehicles cap out at AV12/12/10.

Beating Eldar is a matter of board control and target prioritization, with a healthy dose of playing to the objective. Is it a hard matchup and a slog for some armies to beat? Yes. Are Eldar unbeatable? No."

After seeing what buffs the aspect warriors got, I'm sticking with my plan. Which probably means I'm back on hiatus.

You can't have board control when all your models are dead.

Want to play Eldar the way they're supposed to play?

Pick up Harlequins! Pay a lot of points for some pretty deadly but not insanely stuff that dies when you so much as look at them, but play intelligently and you can pull off big wins by being as hard to grab as the wind.

Note included: High Toughness, Long Range, Cheap Units, Large Enclosed Transports, Large Blasts, Anti-Air, High Armour, Units of Psykers, Aspect Warriors

Just Call 1-HAR-LEQ-UINS (1-427-537-8467). Leave a message at the eternal laugh.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

To be fair if you do a side by side comparison of the knight lancer and str d melee wraith knight. You will clearly see the knoght is nearly identical except it's wasier to kill only has int 5 on the charge and costs 120 points more. If you are comparing the knight to the wraith knight that is the closest comparison you can get and still see how the wraith knight is insanely underpriced.

This is insane to me. The Necron release was strong, but I never once felt like I should handicap myself, change rules, or refuse to play certain models to make my FLGS feel better. I mean yeah, I don't play an army of 24 Wraiths, but that's because I don't actually think they're as good as everyone thinks. I run Orikanstar (which is bs let me tell you what), the Conclave of the Burning One with Nightbringer (which everyone fething hates), and Destroyer Cult (which straight up removes units from the board, no questions asked).

But you know what? It hasn't ruined people's enjoyment, people learned to play with and against them, and we meet up every week. I'm not going to complain if our Eldar player suddenly has an influx of Bikes or dredges out some Wraithguard. I'm not going to pack up and go home if a Wraithknight hits the table. Yeah, they're really damn strong and should cost more. Yeah, the book is probably way over the top compared to most current armies. But I don't think anyone takes the game so seriously that seeing the Craftworld: Eldar book is going to make them refuse to play.

I dunno. Even if you play tourneys, you kind of expect people to run super-tryhard lists. If it's not Eldar with Bikes and Wraithknights, it's gonna be Daemons with Deathstars and Summoning. If it's not that, it's going to be Wolfstar with allies for FNP and Hit and Run. If it's not that, it's going to be Decurion, etc. Maybe I'm trying to be too optimistic, but while the Eldar book seems so good to the point of broken compared to 90% of the books out there, I don't think it's going to ruin the game for me, even when I bring out my non-summoning Daemons.

This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.

Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.


I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.

I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.

Swordwind will probably still be just as fun! Especially without duplicating Aspects!

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.

Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.


I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.

I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.

Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of creative and fluffy ways to run the new Eldar if you simply avoid the overpowered/undercosted units. Anyone complaining about the buffs to Aspect Warriors doesn't know what they are talking about.

As for the TFG's, try calling them out. After all, they're simply jumping on the bandwagon to exploit the most broken rules in 7th edition.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This sucks so bad...I just bought 10 wraith gard 3 months ago - with no idea that this nonsense was going down. I was excited about ap2 templates - now they are D weapons? Come on man.

Don't worry if they are as good as they say you probably can get some money back re-selling them if you don't want to play this.


I completely agree with goatboy because none of this seems fun to play against. Other people may not take advantage of the cheese but my area has quite a few of TFG players that would take it in a heartbeat and call anyone a pussy for not playing against it.

I dunno I just feel like this codex, only from the rumors I heard now and nothing else, just doesn't sound fun. I would love to hear more ways to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone.

Like I said in the OP, there are a lot of creative and fluffy ways to run the new Eldar if you simply avoid the overpowered/undercosted units. Anyone complaining about the buffs to Aspect Warriors doesn't know what they are talking about.

As for the TFG's, try calling them out. After all, they're simply jumping on the bandwagon to exploit the most broken rules in 7th edition.

They guyshave been playing eldar for years so I don't think the bandwagon thing will work. anyways, I hope to play against those fun lists sometime instead of the Tourney way. it just comes down to players I guess.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.

Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.

I think you're missing my point my friend. I don't like the fact that an imperial knight errant can drop a large blast on my war walkers that haven't got the speed to get away, a D can get 2D6 armour pen on the whole squad. Twice I've had a squadron of 3 drop to one blast cos of that damn knight.

There are, and will be plenty of counters to these units. The forums have thrown an absolute fit about a book that isn't even out yet. It happens every time there is a new power book released.

I shall take my wraithknight. I've had him for two years. I won't drop him simply because someone is crying about how powerful he is, and isn't creative enough to come up with a counter to it. I certainly won't be changing his points value just because someone thinks it should be more points.

It makes me laugh. Games workshop wrote the rules. And the points values. I'm not saying they do a good or a bad job. But the people screaming about changing the rules, are also the people on YMDC who are so dead set keen on RAW. It seems it's when it suits people.

Well, If the rumours are true, then RAW a wraithknight is 295 points. RAW wraith weapons are D weapons. And RAW I can take as many damn scatter lasers as I want on my bikes. I'm not saying I will do that, or use all of the above. But I can if I want. Because that's what my rules tell me.

I must be blessed to have the gaming group I have. Not one has cried.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Fine. Then I'll start demanding that imperial knight players pay 600 points. And that tau Riptides can only take one support system. And that daemonkin armies can't summon new bloodthirsters. Ya'know, cos it's 'just not fair'.

It is ridiculous that they bring out a book. With rules that they have written, and you demand changes to those rules before you've even played against the damn book.

Your point would have been relevant if any of those things listed had the same power level or were as game breaking as scatbikes, ranged D or a WK. However, they aren't.

Some tournaments changed the rules on 2++ re-rollable saves because they felt it was unbalanced. Changing the rules for a few eldar units wouldn't be out of the question if they are deemed to be too out of balance.

I think you're missing my point my friend. I don't like the fact that an imperial knight errant can drop a large blast on my war walkers that haven't got the speed to get away, a D can get 2D6 armour pen on the whole squad. Twice I've had a squadron of 3 drop to one blast cos of that damn knight.

There are, and will be plenty of counters to these units. The forums have thrown an absolute fit about a book that isn't even out yet. It happens every time there is a new power book released.

I shall take my wraithknight. I've had him for two years. I won't drop him simply because someone is crying about how powerful he is, and isn't creative enough to come up with a counter to it. I certainly won't be changing his points value just because someone thinks it should be more points.

It makes me laugh. Games workshop wrote the rules. And the points values. I'm not saying they do a good or a bad job. But the people screaming about changing the rules, are also the people on YMDC who are so dead set keen on RAW. It seems it's when it suits people.

Well, If the rumours are true, then RAW a wraithknight is 295 points. RAW wraith weapons are D weapons. And RAW I can take as many damn scatter lasers as I want on my bikes. I'm not saying I will do that, or use all of the above. But I can if I want. Because that's what my rules tell me.

I must be blessed to have the gaming group I have. Not one has cried.

IK are strong - you will see no argument against that from anyone. They do however - die relatively easy to squads that cost about half the points out of a drop pod. They also die pretty easy to standard heavy firepower. Rockets/laz cannons/ plasma guns/melta guns. even str 6/7 spam handels it pretty easily over a few turns. All it does for a few turns is fire a battle cannon a few times each. Half of which should outright miss and the rest will likely be getting cover saves...hardly worth it for 375 points - I've stopped taking them. It will outright eat any unit in CC though - so do a lot of 375 point squads though that don't have a giant easy to kill profile.

It seems the only way to play fair as Eldar will be to play against other Eldar. What fun is that?

If I have to limit my lists based on what my opponents don't like, I get to limit theirs....

Truth118 wrote:It seems the only way to play fair as Eldar will be to play against other Eldar. What fun is that?

I disagree. There are plenty of ways to play Eldar fairly against other armies. It's just a matter of bringing Eldar down to the level of other armies.

partninja wrote:If I have to limit my lists based on what my opponents don't like, I get to limit theirs....

Exactly. You wouldn't play a friendly game against Centstar or Pentatyrant lists. Why should Eldar be any different?

If you play at a club where no one cares what you throw down on the table and there is no discussion on what to bring then this post wasn't directed at you. If your that guy who was binging reverent Titans to your club and claiming your the best player in the world because your expensive model was dropping 4 d blasts before then this post wasn't directed at you. It's likely if your club allowed whatever shenanigans before or just didn't like you then they will continue to do so.
However the new wraith knight is no different then the reverent Titan has Been in the US. They are both gargantuan low models with multiple range d shots. In most cases In either tournaments or clubs they are generally not allowed or you discuss with your opponent if it's ok for you to bring the cheese. Tournaments here either outright ban all low or places all range d low into a ban list. Ether way it's mostly a display shelf model now. Standard Range d on non banned low units will also likely be nerfed or banned. I also expect the general tournament rules here to make all str d into nerfed d scythe version, which is really just a multi wound version of str 10 ap2 with a 33% chance to fail at wounding. So really even though the rest of the elder codex is good other then jet bike hvy weapon spam at 10ppm I don't expect anything else to change at least in the US in regards to comp or club play. And I have a feeling most people are just going to have to deal with overpowered under costed elder skimmers. Honestly those bikes should of been 4+ if not just to balance them with the other elder factions, because it makes no sense how those bikes are better then every other elder race.

"Fair play" is such a relative term. I've met players who thought Vindicators were OP, simply because they played in such a small group

I think a better question all players have to ask themselves is, "Just because I can make a list a certain way, should I?"

Just because Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Seers, and Wraithguard spam are obvious, it doesn't mean one has to use them. The rest of the book is super cool and viable--why not try those units as well.

This mindset applies to GTs/tourneys too. I know tons of guys already rushing to create the nastiest Eldar list possible. However, these lists are so boring and obvious that I can't imagine they will be any fun whatsoever.

I've always found that being a player that does well with the weird and unexpected list is more fun than being the guy who shows up with the cookie-cutter, high-ceiling list. Then again, it is a game we all play for different reasons, so to each their own.

My ultimate point is this--be the change. I don't plan on running Wraithknights, psykers, and D-weapons in my Eldar/DE list. I'll probably cap myself at nine bikes (up from my previous six). I still plan on having the tools to have a shot against all the top lists out there too. I guess we shall see.

 JGrand wrote:
"Fair play" is such a relative term. I've met players who thought Vindicators were OP, simply because they played in such a small group

I think a better question all players have to ask themselves is, "Just because I can make a list a certain way, should I?"

Just because Scatterbikes, Wraithknights, Seers, and Wraithguard spam are obvious, it doesn't mean one has to use them. The rest of the book is super cool and viable--why not try those units as well.

This mindset applies to GTs/tourneys too. I know tons of guys already rushing to create the nastiest Eldar list possible. However, these lists are so boring and obvious that I can't imagine they will be any fun whatsoever.

I've always found that being a player that does well with the weird and unexpected list is more fun than being the guy who shows up with the cookie-cutter, high-ceiling list. Then again, it is a game we all play for different reasons, so to each their own.

My ultimate point is this--be the change. I don't plan on running Wraithknights, psykers, and D-weapons in my Eldar/DE list. I'll probably cap myself at nine bikes (up from my previous six). I still plan on having the tools to have a shot against all the top lists out there too. I guess we shall see.

Exalted. Again, I suspect that the people trying to make the nastiest Eldar tournament lists are going to be in for a rude surprise when the TOs release their personal house rules. The fact that it is a monobuild just means that it will be easier for other armies to come up with ways to counter jetbike spam.

I have always enjoyed using the units out of the 6th edition codex that the internet considers "not competitive". I find it makes me a better player, and makes for more interesting army lists and games.

Exalted. Again, I suspect that the people trying to make the nastiest Eldar tournament lists are going to be in for a rude surprise when the TOs release their personal house rules. The fact that it is a monobuild just means that it will be easier for other armies to come up with ways to counter jetbike spam.

For sure. It is often harder for players to counter something they haven't seen as opposed to the cookie-cutter spam that they have been building to beat for months. NOVA has already ruled against the Wraithknight, so one major offender down for players following that format.

I have always enjoyed using the units out of the 6th edition codex that the internet considers "not competitive". I find it makes me a better player, and makes for more interesting army lists and games.

Agreed--especially when the new books often have tons of untapped potential. Crons are a great example of a codex in which almost every unit can work. People gravitate toward the obvious though. The Eldar book looks like the same, as the new aspect rules seem awesome, yet overshadowed by the neon "easy mode" signs buzzing around ranged D-weapons and Scatbikes.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel for the tournament scene: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2015/04/dealing-with-el-d-ar-pre-codex-thoughts.html

NOVA Open has banned the Wraithknight (along with other Gargantuan Lord of War). Can't say I blame them.

Until the codex is released, they're adopting a "wait and see" attitude on ranged D, though they do reference a lot of the negative feedback at the LVO about ranged D.

This is big, not least because this probably sets a record for fastest TO ruling. Any groups who play by NOVA-style rules will now have to take a hard look at their local Eldar players' list-building behavior.

The thing is, I can adapt to almost any list and play style. I build lists that are mobile, durable, have assault and ranged etc.

What I can't play around is "How many 6's did he roll" I can try to limit the number of shots but at the end of the day it is down to , not his skill nor mine, its down to did he get those 6s.