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seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

 koooaei wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

A squad of 10 lootas has a potential to kill from 0.74 to 2.22 bikes. Statistically. And they even don't force bikes to jink. That's for a 150 pt squad that's gona get erazed by return fire next turn. Not great.

Lootas are also not an option imo.

Lootas are 14 pts each now and you can bring up to 15 in a squad now so it's 15-45 shots per turn instead of 10-30. (I'm guessing they used to be 15 pts each and only a squad of 10 from your post)

They used to cost 15 ppm but could still be taken in 5-15 squas. I'm talking about 10 cause it's the most common ammount of lootas you see on board. It's way harder to effectively hide a larger squad, remain spread out to avoid blasts and keep everyone within los / not giving easy cover at the same time.

15 will simply kill 1.5 times more, right? So, 1.11 - 3.33. That's 59.94 of bikes on average from a 210 pt squad. 210 pt of bikes will put 17.28 wounds on lootas before cover. So, if you're camping ruins, it's 8.64 dead lootas - 120.96 pt of dead lootas in cover! Than lootas have ld7 to not run away.

Ughh true true. Darn leadership too. I'd say the sqaud in my hand will be minus one Loota and plus one character so would probably be a bit more expensive. A sort of character tax to mitigate the mob rule and fulfill one of it's prereqs. Sigh this opens my eyes to their performance on 3+ non vehicle units.

Great thread. Refreshing to see solutions coming through now.

Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

Imho jetbikes seen in a vacuum aren't such a huge problem, but integrated inside the rest of the eldar army they will present a threat much greater than themselves alone. Nonetheless great thread .

Mavnas wrote:
Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

Space Marine Fire Raptors can take it no problem, it's a flying tank after all.

Hmm.. the deredeo has the benefit of Interceptor meaning it would pop an incomming Hemlock before it can use its Str D weapons.

Here's a simple solution and it's so amazing it will blow your mind. Refuse to play eldar; quit justifying and trying to explain away gw's inability to write a reasonable eldar codex and plant your foot in the ground and say no to their shenanigans.

Arguing the point of playing eldar is like arguing about wether it's right or wrong to so hard drugs or not. I don't care if you haven't died on your last meth binge it doesn't make it any less stupid to do the drug in the first place. If you have to justify anything about it your the one who's a glutton for punishment.

 ionusx wrote:
Here's a simple solution and it's so amazing it will blow your mind. Refuse to play eldar; quit justifying and trying to explain away gw's inability to write a reasonable eldar codex and plant your foot in the ground and say no to their shenanigans.

Arguing the point of playing eldar is like arguing about wether it's right or wrong to so hard drugs or not. I don't care if you haven't died on your last meth binge it doesn't make it any less stupid to do the drug in the first place. If you have to justify anything about it your the one who's a glutton for punishment.

Meth is cheaper and less addictive than 40K.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

Spending 170 points to kill 81 (if you're a little lucky) isn't a solution.

-Matt

A very expensive solution, but a thunderhawk gunship has a 7" AP3 blast that you could give ignores cover. It's also got 2 lascannons and 4 TL heavy bolters, and for 60 points you can give it 6 S6 AP4 bombs. If you really want to spend some points you can make it a GK thunderhawk with 4 TL psycannons for an additional 105 pts. The base SM model costs 25 scatbikes though, so it could be difficult to make your points back, and as soon as they jink that have no better target than your AV12 points brick. 25 bikes will snapfire for 2.78 hullpoints off AV12, so hopefully you've got some techmarines in there and you killed some of the bikes.

EDIT: Additionally you could just give the ignores cover legacy to a reaver or warhound Titan. Blow away the D-weapons with your own then shoot the bikes.

I think there is an interesting dichotomy people haven't noticed in the general knee jerk reaction to the windriders ability to take heavy weapons on each bike. This dichotomy being that the old 3 naked jetbikes without upgrades is still actually the best configuration for quick objective snatches. What made the windrider units so effective at snatching objectives was to keep it in reserve/out of LoS until you needed it and then turbo boost it onto the objective. The addition of scatter lasers or shu catapults is in direct contrast to this paradigm. The unit becomes 60% more expensive and gains no additional abilities to turbo boost onto objectives. What this does do however is make the unit an extremely effective shooting unit with sub par durability. The most amusing part of this split purpose is the warlock. For a very reasonable price you can increase the durability of the unit and possible get a fix for the unit's morale issues but you further sink points into a unit which you will be sorely tempted to turbo boost to an objective and hide out of LoS.

There has been a complete loss of reason when talking about the windrider units. Some of the obvious double think going on;
*Windrider units are always at 36" range (which would mean rear board edge most games) but they require wiping out all their models. In reality ~30% of the time it will take 2 dead windriders and the unit will break and run off the board if kept at 36"+ from the opponent. This actually gets worse for the windriders the more windrider units the CWE player takes as they take up a lot of space on the board.
*Windrider units are always out of LoS...are people really playing on boards with 5" solid walls all over the place? Even with JSJ the unit has to roll pretty well to meaningfully change their LoS without some pretty unusual terrain setup.
*Windrider units are always maximum spaced out...people keep assuming they are jumping out of LoS so how are they also spread out? IME it is usually one or the other.
*Windrider units can claim objectives all while staying 36" from enemy units. This is really ironic as maelstorm score as you go objectives (like the ITC) will inevitably bring these jetbike units within charge distanced if the CWE player wants to keep up. Maelstorm objectives are a lot of what makes melee type armies work in 7ed.

If we look at windrider units in a realistic light then really you just have to either force a jink or kill 25% of the unit (2 of a 5 windrider unit) from each unit of windriders. The jinking units will have little return fire and on average 38% of the morale tests will fail. In addition consider that jink has to be declared before you roll to hit. So the next time you consider a grey hunter unit with 2 plasma guns shooting at a windrider unit after jumping out of a drop pod you realize that they have a nearly 40% of breaking the windrider unit if it doesn't jink and if it does they own that bit of board for the next turn (and still have a decent chance to cause the necessary causalities). Windrider units are very high damage but very very fragile. IMO calling them MEQ is actually a disservice to understanding the situation as MEQ have morale control better than fearless.

In this light most of the options in this list are complete overkill for all but the biggest units. This is a very useful list to learn how to deal with a complete Saim-Hann army though. I could see larger units of 5 scatter laser bikes, 2 regular bikes, and a warlock manifesting shrouded being a very nasty unit.

Anyways, sorry for the long wall of text.

While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

Also, severely undercosted garganaught MC.

HawaiiMatt wrote:While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

koooaei wrote:Also, severely undercosted garganaught MC.

I agree that the synergy of the CWE codex is incredible. I also understand your point that in reality whole armies are being played. IMO the only real balance issue in the codex is the D weapons table, but that is an issue throughout all ranged D IMO.

The fact that some armies don't have any realistic counters to GMC is not an issue with the CWE codex but an issue with other poorly thought out codexes. This has been a low simmering issue since LoW were introduced and was already a concern with the nids GMC but the less than stellar nature of the rest of the codex obscured the issue until recently. Now it is just brought out into stark contrast.

However for a considerable number of the army builds there isn't any qualitative difference between the old wraithknight or D blasts and the new ones. To a grey hunter unit or a SM bike squad there isn't any difference between Str10 and D weapons. The wraithknight is also largely just +FnP for the armies that didn't use poison/snipers to deal with MCs, which is a lot of them actually.

Also in maelstorm there is just as much chance the opponent will have to close with me as I have to close with him. This is actually why IMO score as you go missions are a much better way to play the game. By their nature they are an equalizer between melee and ranged combat...totally another discussion though.

 ansacs wrote:

I agree that the synergy of the CWE codex is incredible.

Synergy is a wrong word here. Power creep - that's what it is.

When there are severely undercosted spammable GMC with D weapons, severely undercosted spammable troops that are tough and can shoot you from across the board, severely undercosted spammable elites with massed severely undercosted spammable d-weapons...it's called bad game design - not synergy.

TBH, GMC have always been stupidly powerful. Consider the Transcendent C'Tan in the previous cron book. T9 3+/4++ FNP. 6 wounds. Good luck with that. (Cent star was the only unit that could remove it in a turn. Entire armies could fail at this task.)

The WK is 1 less T and doesn't get the 4++, but it costs less than half as much, and if it's in cover, it might as well have the 4++.

Mavnas wrote:
TBH, GMC have always been stupidly powerful. Consider the Transcendent C'Tan in the previous cron book. T9 3+/4++ FNP. 6 wounds. Good luck with that. (Cent star was the only unit that could remove it in a turn. Entire armies could fail at this task.)

The WK is 1 less T and doesn't get the 4++, but it costs less than half as much, and if it's in cover, it might as well have the 4++.

It does get an invulnerable save when you take the Suncannon and D-Sword.

Yeah, so it's not quite as over the top ridiculous since S5 fire can hurt it, and there's more S5 high-RoF guns than there are S6 (unless you're eldar lol) so it's not as unkillable as the old C'Tan.

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, so it's not quite as over the top ridiculous since S5 fire can hurt it, and there's more S5 high-RoF guns than there are S6 (unless you're eldar lol) so it's not as unkillable as the old C'Tan.

Yeah, you statistically just need 40,5 heavy bolter marines within 36" to kill a knight. 972 pts of devastator marines, so, i guess, no big deal for games where you're alowed to take 2 times more points than your opponent! Phew! Calm down, people.

Legion of the Damned have natural Ignores Cover. Probably best kitted out with Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon and Combi-grav.

EDIT: just noticed this was already suggested.

What about Vindicaire manning one of the new Plasma Obliterators? His Spy Mask grants Ignores Cover to all rolls to hit. Question is, does roll to scatter = roll to hit?

tau tse tung wrote:How about the Valkyrie Missile pods, surely the bikes would suffer under two large blasts? It would also force a Ld check if a few died.

Added to the list and credited

quickfuze wrote:Noise marines with sonic blasters and blastmasters will make them cry a bit

It's already on the list cept the number of blasts available to a squad and points keep it from top place.

Mavnas wrote:Oh, other fun thing you can do with a Stormlord. Add a DA character with a PFG to the blob wrapped around it. Now you have a 4++. It won't help with the rolls of a 6 on the D weapons, but the 2-5 are now only 1 HP on average.

You could also have 20 of the non-shooting models pop out of it in any given turn and replace the blob around it preventing the enemy from approaching closer than 7" (so no melta, and deep striking D-Scythes will be hard pressed to get the whole unit within range).

I'm starting to think that they key to defeating the cheesiest Eldar lists is having a few AV13-14 front and sides tanks along with enough firepower to kill the wraithknights. Once you get those down, the bikes are a mere annoyance to your tanks unless they can get behind you. 13/11/10 are OK, but you really need to hide them between some 14/13/??s or terrain and only show the AV 13 side.

In this regard, I almost think not buying the sponsons might be the better bet for things. People talk about the Relic Sicaran with lasers, and ceramite, and the legacy, but you're probably better off just having two of them for slightly more points (Assuming multi-CAD is allowed in your meta.)

Otherwise, guard can field a bunch of Lehman Russes and a Stormlord and enough cheap infantry to last until the enemy has done his deep striking. By my math, a 2'x4' deployment zone could be completely filled with 96 troops if it contains nothing else (like no terrain and tanks). If you deploy on your own back line, you don't really need the full 12"+ buffer against deep strikers, but really you just need to protect the super heavy. A command unit + 3 separate LRs would require the enemy to bring 4 different sets of D weapons into range. If your enemy's army can do that, bikes are the least of your problems.

I have really liked my stormlord for years and I definately agree. It was already on the list but I added in some of your information as well so additionally credited.

ansacs wrote:I think there is an interesting dichotomy people haven't noticed in the general knee jerk reaction to the windriders ability to take heavy weapons on each bike. This dichotomy being that the old 3 naked jetbikes without upgrades is still actually the best configuration for quick objective snatches. What made the windrider units so effective at snatching objectives was to keep it in reserve/out of LoS until you needed it and then turbo boost it onto the objective. The addition of scatter lasers or shu catapults is in direct contrast to this paradigm. The unit becomes 60% more expensive and gains no additional abilities to turbo boost onto objectives. What this does do however is make the unit an extremely effective shooting unit with sub par durability. The most amusing part of this split purpose is the warlock. For a very reasonable price you can increase the durability of the unit and possible get a fix for the unit's morale issues but you further sink points into a unit which you will be sorely tempted to turbo boost to an objective and hide out of LoS.

There has been a complete loss of reason when talking about the windrider units. Some of the obvious double think going on;
*Windrider units are always at 36" range (which would mean rear board edge most games) but they require wiping out all their models. In reality ~30% of the time it will take 2 dead windriders and the unit will break and run off the board if kept at 36"+ from the opponent. This actually gets worse for the windriders the more windrider units the CWE player takes as they take up a lot of space on the board.
*Windrider units are always out of LoS...are people really playing on boards with 5" solid walls all over the place? Even with JSJ the unit has to roll pretty well to meaningfully change their LoS without some pretty unusual terrain setup.
*Windrider units are always maximum spaced out...people keep assuming they are jumping out of LoS so how are they also spread out? IME it is usually one or the other.
*Windrider units can claim objectives all while staying 36" from enemy units. This is really ironic as maelstorm score as you go objectives (like the ITC) will inevitably bring these jetbike units within charge distanced if the CWE player wants to keep up. Maelstorm objectives are a lot of what makes melee type armies work in 7ed.

If we look at windrider units in a realistic light then really you just have to either force a jink or kill 25% of the unit (2 of a 5 windrider unit) from each unit of windriders. The jinking units will have little return fire and on average 38% of the morale tests will fail. In addition consider that jink has to be declared before you roll to hit. So the next time you consider a grey hunter unit with 2 plasma guns shooting at a windrider unit after jumping out of a drop pod you realize that they have a nearly 40% of breaking the windrider unit if it doesn't jink and if it does they own that bit of board for the next turn (and still have a decent chance to cause the necessary causalities). Windrider units are very high damage but very very fragile. IMO calling them MEQ is actually a disservice to understanding the situation as MEQ have morale control better than fearless.

In this light most of the options in this list are complete overkill for all but the biggest units. This is a very useful list to learn how to deal with a complete Saim-Hann army though. I could see larger units of 5 scatter laser bikes, 2 regular bikes, and a warlock manifesting shrouded being a very nasty unit.

Anyways, sorry for the long wall of text.

You do raise valid points however I think to keep using descriptors like fragile is kind of misleading as well. They are by far more fragile I'll agree with you compared to a WK but to something else like guardmen or even most other eldar like guardians, these bikes are definately much more survivable. Heck, even vs a MEQ which has much worse guns by comparison and has no options to jink and are way way slower, they have massive bonuses to survival. Staying out of range of most other anti-infantry things usually held by the other army's infantry, is a tremendous boost to their survivability. Your threat bubble is much bigger and often can use flanks to much bigger effect. If the enemy is doing a general advance, it's much easier to reposition a flank with turbo boost and to just focus down one flank and mow down the rest. Playing the malestorm missions is much easier when you have so much board control as well as being able to focus your firepower much much more effectively with the higher str and range of these weapons as opposed to traditional MEQ.

Your comparison to their old roles is also a big paradigm shift that I think is not being portrayed by these new bikes and the way you describe their use. you don't really need to just objective grab at the last second or contest anymore. You just wipe out the enemy units especially on a flank to give you the space. Spreading out the malestorm objectives or keeping them in the open also gives jetbikes a big advantage as they can jink in the open while other MEQ just get killed when out of cover with relatively common items like battle cannons/bladestorm/rending/list goes on, which is on a lot of stuff. Anything fast can be killed by volume of fire and range. The slow stuff you just leave in their corner as you can just control the rest of the board. if the slow stuff sits in the middle to get range of the various bikes, that will then leave all the malestorm objectives not in the center free to grab.

Ld8 is kind of a weakness but it's still going to pass as often as most marines like space wolves (also Ld8). Your really going to only be worse than necrons for trying not to break from shooting from one round of shooting. Yes marines will auto rally next turn, but you will have a good chance to rally also and can be much better at focusing down other units. Jinking may seem like a nerf in some ways but you don't always have to jink. You just have the option to but you can still have a 4+ cover by being behind ruins just like marines. Yes, you nerf your next round of fire power when you jink but you are still shooting back and have the same effect vs flyers. You also will then force more shooting at the bikes if they want to keep them jinking/removed as a threat vs shooting at another target.

Leth wrote:seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

added in and credited

Mavnas wrote:Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

The legacy that ignores cover can be taken by any Sm vehicle including flyers. The fire raptor is actually not a tank (as you need that in your profile) so it is not eligible for every single legacy. Some like Schism of Mars is only for tanks. The problem is that the legacy only gets ignore cover on weapons that use blast markers so it's not universally useful. Fire raptor doesn't use blast markers. The hellfire plasma cannonade on the new Deredeo weapons system can however still use it with the maximal fire option though it's a get hot and single large blast plasma cannon basically. Still effective though so I'll add it on.

The deredeo can use both the anvilus autocannon or plasma cannonade with the helical targeting array to get skyfire and interceptor. Which one is more effective is up to you. The autocannon has reroll to pen vs vehicles and higher str, the plasma has Ap2 but less range

 sudojoe wrote:
You do raise valid points however I think to keep using descriptors like fragile is kind of misleading as well. They are by far more fragile I'll agree with you compared to a WK but to something else like guardmen or even most other eldar like guardians, these bikes are definately much more survivable. Heck, even vs a MEQ which has much worse guns by comparison and has no options to jink and are way way slower, they have massive bonuses to survival. Staying out of range of most other anti-infantry things usually held by the other army's infantry, is a tremendous boost to their survivability. Your threat bubble is much bigger and often can use flanks to much bigger effect. If the enemy is doing a general advance, it's much easier to reposition a flank with turbo boost and to just focus down one flank and mow down the rest. Playing the malestorm missions is much easier when you have so much board control as well as being able to focus your firepower much much more effectively with the higher str and range of these weapons as opposed to traditional MEQ.

Jetbikes are fragile as compared to a waveserpent w/ guardians or guardians + a warlock with conceal. The guardians are 3 wounds for the price of 1 scatter laser jetbike wound. Their morale is the same but the 25% morale check takes more wounds to trigger and they will struggle to flee off the board due to a much slower flee movement.

The range is an increase in survivability against some opponents. Against many opponents there is no difference as they either depend on long range weapons to do their work (Tau riptide lists, IG, Renegades and Heretics), alpha strike from DS reserves (DE, Drop Pod marines, GK, Elysians), or are fast enough to keep up (Flyrants, white scars). I know that I never counted on an opponent closing with me to be effective, but I have seen some SM bolter gunline and Tau firewarrior bases still being run so your point has some validity.

Consider the case of Drop Pod Imperial Fists though. The SM TAC squads will get the first hits in. They will kill an average of 1.8 windriders from 6 different squads assuming average rolling on the turn they drop and that they brought melta rather than plasma (which would be better). We will also assume that anything like drop pod grav cents, etc. was used for killing a wraithknight or something. On average that would be most of the units taking morale checks, lets assume only 1 unit fails morale (which BTW is likely to cause the unit to flee off board). Return fire would net an average of 2.2 dead marines for 3 windriders remaining in each unit (a better move for the CWE player might be to turbo boost out of range of the TAC squads but that leaves them unharmed). The next turn your average Drop Pod MSU army will land 2-3 more pods with the same contents and your unit that fled didn't accomplish much. If you actually play this game on a board you will find out that unless the jetbikes turbo boost they cannot get away from the drop pod marines in a single turn.

Windriders are fragile as they don't have an ability to hide in reserves and come in guaranteed turn 1 or the durability to take most firepower on the chin (like the old waveserpent could). Compounded with their morale issues (which are very real) and the fact each failed save is one less scatter laser. The comparison most people are familiar with and in many ways scatter laser windriders are replacing are the previous edition waveserpents. The effective output of the two units is very similar but the serpent was vastly more durable than the scatter laser windriders, thus they are fragile. Admittedly green tide without long range support and probably a ADL to duck behind to avoid alpha strikes will get mauled.

 sudojoe wrote:
Your comparison to their old roles is also a big paradigm shift that I think is not being portrayed by these new bikes and the way you describe their use. you don't really need to just objective grab at the last second or contest anymore. You just wipe out the enemy units especially on a flank to give you the space. Spreading out the malestorm objectives or keeping them in the open also gives jetbikes a big advantage as they can jink in the open while other MEQ just get killed when out of cover with relatively common items like battle cannons/bladestorm/rending/list goes on, which is on a lot of stuff. Anything fast can be killed by volume of fire and range. The slow stuff you just leave in their corner as you can just control the rest of the board. if the slow stuff sits in the middle to get range of the various bikes, that will then leave all the malestorm objectives not in the center free to grab.

This is only thinking about new CWE versus old lists. New lists are going to want better cover saves and ADLs can make a huge come back now that ignore cover serpents are not invalidating them. How are you going to use your windrider units to remove a IG blobb behind an ADL before the IG artillery starts causing your windriders to flee? The answer is you are not. You will need an ignore cover unit to deal with it (D scythe wraithguard could work) and the windriders will need to tackle another target. Windriders struggle dealing with 2+ cover saves (and lets just ignore 2+ rerollable cover Tz daemons) and as such will have to wait for their counter parts to clear the unit or have to snatch the objective. If we talk about maelstorm then yes the IG units cannot sit behind an ADL but the windriders also cannot sit at 36"+ range.

 sudojoe wrote:
Ld8 is kind of a weakness but it's still going to pass as often as most marines like space wolves (also Ld8). Your really going to only be worse than necrons for trying not to break from shooting from one round of shooting. Yes marines will auto rally next turn, but you will have a good chance to rally also and can be much better at focusing down other units. Jinking may seem like a nerf in some ways but you don't always have to jink. You just have the option to but you can still have a 4+ cover by being behind ruins just like marines. Yes, you nerf your next round of fire power when you jink but you are still shooting back and have the same effect vs flyers. You also will then force more shooting at the bikes if they want to keep them jinking/removed as a threat vs shooting at another target.

I agree that jink is not a weakness it is a strength (assuming you understand when to jink and not to jink, some players it is a weakness) however there is a weakness to jink as compared to cover.

However Ld8 windriders are a far shot away from Ld8 space marines when it comes to breaking and rallying. Also you just committed the double think I was talking about. How does a windrider unit both stay 36" away from the enemy (as you state above about survivability) without being within 3d6 of their board edge (that is average 10.5"). For 2/3 of the deployment types this is actually impossible turn 1 and likely impossible most of the game. Also failing morale will cause you to not move and snap fire next turn.

So I did a fun bit of math. On average the scatter laser is better at killing MEQ at over 12" than a plasma gun and better at all ranges if the target has a 4+ cover or 4++, but this is OK because it costs 2/3rds as much and doesnt get hot.

All I see here is apologists looking at solutions to a horrible army codex design decision instead of doing the smart thing and not playing these silly games gw wants you too.

Look at yourselves people are looking at the top of shelf brand new and biggest box products to solve an issue revolving an over the counter plastic kit you can pickup for chicken feed by comparison. Your chasing 1000 solutions to a 10 dollar problem. And it's not because we couldn't have a solution on the cheap but because gw doesn't want you to have a solution. If they have to in the next book eldar will simply be invincible and unkillable if gw needs to keep you pain stackingly hauling out the visa to buy storm lords and thunder hawk gunships.

And we will be back here again having all of you bending over and taking it. Justifying away gw's inability to knock the eldar down the ladder a few dozen notches because they deserve it after years of the rest of us having good and bad army books but the eldar never having a single bad egg.

You all need proper mental help if you think your going to just solve this problem and have it go away next codex and hoping for a better day that will never happen won't solve anything either.
Do the smart thing, stop playing against standard eldar.

One of my local store owners has permanently shelved his eldar because he knows he wouldn't get any games with them between now and their next codex. And he's started a new army and I think that he has the right idea. Just as nobody is telling us to play against eldar, nobody is telling you to play them either. And if you insist on it maybe you need to learn to not be so attached to plastic space elves and broaden your horizons a little.

 ionusx wrote:
All I see here is apologists looking at solutions to a horrible army codex design decision instead of doing the smart thing and not playing these silly games gw wants you too.

Look at yourselves people are looking at the top of shelf brand new and biggest box products to solve an issue revolving an over the counter plastic kit you can pickup for chicken feed by comparison. Your chasing 1000 solutions to a 10 dollar problem. And it's not because we couldn't have a solution on the cheap but because gw doesn't want you to have a solution. If they have to in the next book eldar will simply be invincible and unkillable if gw needs to keep you pain stackingly hauling out the visa to buy storm lords and thunder hawk gunships.

And we will be back here again having all of you bending over and taking it. Justifying away gw's inability to knock the eldar down the ladder a few dozen notches because they deserve it after years of the rest of us having good and bad army books but the eldar never having a single bad egg.

You all need proper mental help if you think your going to just solve this problem and have it go away next codex and hoping for a better day that will never happen won't solve anything either.
Do the smart thing, stop playing against standard eldar.

One of my local store owners has permanently shelved his eldar because he knows he wouldn't get any games with them between now and their next codex. And he's started a new army and I think that he has the right idea. Just as nobody is telling us to play against eldar, nobody is telling you to play them either. And if you insist on it maybe you need to learn to not be so attached to plastic space elves and broaden your horizons a little.

I'm going to have to disagree somewhat. I already own a Stormlord. Also it's roughly 4 points per dollar. That's way cheaper than the rest of my army.

Secondly, next codex is IK. That is basically DoA if Eldar have cheap D weapons. So I don't think there's a sinister plot to push plastic here. I think GW doesn't know what they're doing and they don't care.

Meh, overall not to worried about the new eldar. Will have to play them a few times before I can say for sure if they are good or bad. I think the builds people are worried about counter deathstar 40k, but such against so many builds that it will not win out. I think the hybrid approach with aspects and the like is what we are going to see. Which once again is not as big of a deal.

I think give it some time and we will see. I dont like it but then again I only dont like it when I am investing a LOT of points into something.

I dont care about stomps or 6s on troops, and if you invest a lot in troops you dont really care. Wraithknight is too cheap but overall still manageable

The WK being too cheap IS the problem. I don't have a problem with the most over the top Cent stars because I run MSU lists that can reasonably hope to counter whatever the enemy has left after spending 1K on a single unit.

When the enemy spends under 300 points...

So I just had a thought. If you put a 50 man blob behind an Aegis defense line. The forward rank would have a 2+ cover save when going to ground. You could probably keep them alive long enough even under concentrated fire to prevent deep striking against targets behind your line.

Enemy flamers would clean them out, or bikes turbo boosting and hitting the guys not in the front of the unit, but for turn 1-2 you should be able to keep deep strikers out of your back field, I think?

Although, now that I think of it, enemy barrage weapons could target guys in the back turn 1 then open up a gap for people to drop into, but no strategy is foolproof.

I think the biggest problem to fielding a super heavy remains WKs using D weapons from 36" away and Hemlocks coming in and using D weapons before you can shoot them.

Dont bother going to ground, just throw in cypher or Ilias Issidon for shrouded. Also wyverns should put in some work as well, provided you actually have LOS blocking on the table that is...