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I'm not really the one where I play that adopts that mindset. Most game are tuneups for tourneys, though.

Swordwind is an Aspect list, usually with minimal duplication of Aspects. The 'Thousand Cuts' gameplay, where each unit does a different job.

Bharring wrote:
Swordwind is an Aspect list, usually with minimal duplication of Aspects. The 'Thousand Cuts' gameplay, where each unit does a different job.

Okay. Well that's a lot different than Wind Riders

If you're ever concerned about the power level of your lists... just bring a few lists. Ask your opponent to place his list on a scale of Funsies, Competitive, and Hard Core. Play the matching list. Or ask your opponent if he would mind if you played "X" list today.

I used to do that, back in 5/6 edition. I'll toot my own horn and say that I had a pretty powerful IG build. Most people were interested in playing the Competitive lists. I'm pretty lucky that way, people that play to win, but also take units that they "just feel like" using. I've got soooo many Dreadnaughts.

Anyhow, if you're worried, just bring options. You'd be surprised how quickly you can change a core of 1000 points to 1500 points of silly gimmick list, to a vicious castration list.

Bharring wrote:
Wow. Just looked at prices for Noise Marines and Plague Marines. Just wow.

Right? Now keep in mind that you can upgrade the bolters and get icons...they get absurdly expensive.
Point wise, eldar are winning against most dexes.

Bharring wrote:

At any rate, Noise Marines vs Fire Dragons:
Noise Marines aren't the same thing as Fire Dragons.
Fire Dragons are 12" range Land Raider killers. Cover kills their firepower, but they have to be super close anyways.
Noise Marines are cover-ignoring Marines. Their boltguns are quite scary to all the 5+ armors out there. And their blast master is a long ranged blast. There are many things a BlastMaster is better at than a Meltagun. As for the boltguns, even they have targets where they are better than meltaguns (GEQ targets, or stuff in really good cover). Sure, a Fire Dragon is worth more than a boltgun Noise Marine, but it also costs a lot less.

Well, this is different then what was claimed earlier, but alright.
I wouldn't say Fire dragons have their firepower killed by cover. It's a 4-5+ save, so cut in half is bad but not horrible. For noise marines, just basic armor on most units does that or worse.
Very few scary units have 5+ armor saves. Orks do, but are T4. Guard do, but are 1/4th the cost of a noise marine with a special bolter. Nids do, but are in the same boat as the guard.
I guess DE troops? Also, nobody takes the bolters. They are considered universally bad since noise marines don't have relentless.

A long range blast have their uses, true. The problem is, it's not as useful as firedragons or reapers. Mainly because I only get 2 per 10 man squad. If I had access to 4-5 per squad, this would be a different conversation. The eldar's ability to take a good weapon on every single trooper is what makes them such a good army.

I wouldn't say that fire dragons cost a lot more then a bolter toting noise marine. Between the blast master, bolter, possibly the icon, champion, the cost per model is really high.

Bharring wrote:

Noise Marines are more similar to Dark Reapers. A Blast master costs two basic Reapers, but is 1 per 5? I know ablative wounds are so passe, but let's do some estimation:

10v10
Blastmasterx2 Noise Marines (240 pts)
Krak missile Dark Reapers (320 pts)
Reapers go first, 5+ cover for both (usually 4+ for this kind of unit)

10 Reapers: 10(1)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = (10)(10/27) = ~ 4 dead boltguns
6 Noise (2 BM): (4-6 hits)(5/6)(1) = (25/6) =~ 4 dead Reapers.
6 Reapers: (6)(10/27) = ~ 2 dead boltguns
4 Noise: (4-6 hits)(5/6) = ~ 4 dead reapers

Noise Marines seem like a really good counter to Dark Reapers. Their killing power doesn't drop off while their 17ppm ablative wounds die, compared to the 33 (25+8) ppm Dark Reapers.

The ability to put a special weapon on every squad member makes Eldar very capable at taking out their intended targets. But the inability to take ablative wounds can be costly. When boltguns do serious damage to your squads, things are very different.

Bladestorm is hurt by cover just like Plasma Guns are. I think you'd find most CSM configurations still handle DA well.

Marines are 50% more survivable than Dire Avengers. I wouodnt call that slight. Kitted, TAC squads rarely cost 50% more per model than DAs.

(Eldar bikes are amazing, but remember that Shining Spears are 25ppm, and have a 6" range)

Your numbers assume the following
1) I never miss with the scatter dice. It doesn't scatter much, but it can scatter and result in a lot fewer hits.
2) You never are forced to remove the blastmaster. Having a precision hit from the leader suddenly cuts my firepower in half.
3) Nobody is moving in a way that allows them to target the blastmasters. No longer passing the good weapons on after death hurt marines a lot.

Boltguns do not do serious damage. They do damage, sure, but I wouldn't call it serious. 1 shot at 24 or 2 at 12 for 14ppm is bad, making them one of the worst infantry in the game.
Ablative wounds are terrible. If they were good, you would never see sternguard taken. The ability to alpha punch with a lot of shots is king in 40k, due to the overwhelming firepower better armies possess.
This used to be a uniquely DE strategy, but it's become quite the common move.

DA are 50% less survivable against bolters, true. Nobody cares about bolters. Compare them to scat lasers, plasma guns, blastmasters, and other units that get work done. But them up against noise marines or reapers, see who looks worse.

Guardians and Corsairs also have a 5+.

I do think Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are 'better' overall compared to Noise Marines. But not better at everything.

When I was talking about cover saves hurting FD firepower, I was thinking about things like jinking Nurgle princes and such. When Cover saves get good, meltaguns get worse. Still, a MG is much better overall than a Boltgun, obviously.

FD are really short range units, whereas Noise Marines do some nasty long range work (Blast masters), and have a decent volume of small arms fire at medium range. Two very different skillsets.

Reapers, if you're taking Krak missiles, are not cheap. And get no ablaitive wounds. Ablative wounds really do help, as Precision isn't that common (even Eldar lost a lot of it with the new Dex).

There are things Reapers are better against (flat-out a jinking SM bikers!), and things Noise Marines are better against (Devs or Havoks in heavy cover).

Overall, though, Cult Marines got one of the shortest sticks in the game. Hell, Dark Angels probably look down on you. But I still think Swordwind verses Marine heavy CSM would be a reasonable game.

At the top end, ablative wounds don't seem to do much. But on more reasonable tables, having 3 guys survive the enemy, and having those be a Plas/CombiPlas/MM isn't the sort of thing that is too rare.

I, too, wish the game were less Alpha-heavy. I try to build my list with that in mind. Again, on reasonable tables, it works.

(Also, DAs die 50% faster than Marines to S6. They die 100% faster to S4).

Bharring wrote:
Guardians and Corsairs also have a 5+.

I said scary units

I do think Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are 'better' overall compared to Noise Marines. But not better at everything.

Bharring wrote:
6 Noise (2 BM): (4-6 hits)(5/6)(1) = (25/6) =~ 4 dead Reapers.

This is something I do not understand. How on earth are you going to get 4-6 hits with 2 small blast markers? Maybe it is just the players I play with, who always spread the units at max coherency. What the heck?

These kind of comparisons are useless. We might as well decide that the eldar player places all his models in base contact with each other and ignore any chance of the blast scattering away from the intended target.

I just don't get this, sorry.

I thought that blastmasters were large templates from his numbers. Small templates are indeed awful and usually only hit one target.

The 4-6 was based on an estimate provided upthread. 3-5 seems more likely, I think.

What delivery system are you calling second only to droppods? If you're talking about WWP, that's a wholly different 'Dex, and wouldn't be Swordwind. If you're talking about Wave Serpents, now that they're not gunboats, that is an aweful lot of points for a transport without much firepower (110 stock, before weapons/wargear). And would need to suicide along with FireDragons, most likely.

Characters no longer get Precision stock. That ended with 7th. A few Eldar models get it (Rangers are always fun!), but not a lot of them.

'Swordwind' is an army style. Its a lot of different Aspects, each with their own specialty. Preferably with minimal duplication (an army full of Warp Spider spam probably wouldn't be Swordwind).

All this is without using those formations. Because many of those formations are outright broken. Like further from balance than Noise Marines broken. A Formation-heavy Eldar list would struggle to be reasonable.

While it is true that Dire Avengers die just as fast to Blast masters as Marines, its also true that Shuriken Catapults do just as much damage to Rhinos as Boltguns.

Aspect Warriors tend to be MEQ prices. Dark Reapers with Krak are 33ppm. Shining Spears are 25 ppm. Scorpion Exarch, even without the rest of the squad, runs at 57 points. Those are the more expensive options, sure, but my point is that Aspect Warriors are more often than not outnumbered against MEQ armies, so expecting them to perform worse than MEQ like most T3 armies leads to confusion.

Usually I can score 2 hits with a small blast, sometimes I can score 3. Very rarely do I get 1.

Wave serpents are an amazing transport. I would say they are the second best in the game, though I don't count delivery systems.

What is the 2nd best transport after drop pods if not the wave serpent?

I really need to reread 7th edition. Or play some games...after 5 months I am forgetting things.

I don't think drop pods are the number one transport. Arguably, they aren't a transport at all, just a fancy teleport mechanism.

Second berlst is probably the Webway portal.

Don't forget you get a Predator and a Rhino for the price of a Serpent. Now that its been nerfed, its not so bonkers. 110 points for 3 S6 shots...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're kitting up the Serpent, that 130pt 10-man DA squad is now paying 140 points just to get where they need to go.

Depending how you play pivots (I'm shocked that there doesn't seem to be a consensus in YMDC), on the turn the unit disembarks, the rear hatch actually is further away than the front of the Serpent started. That means, the turn before they hop out and shoot, they flat out to nearly in range. Which means you'll frequently throw away a 110pt transport to get Fire Dragons in range.

Even the lowly 35pt Rhino has side hatches, which help quite a bit. But more importantly, 3 Rhinos for 3 squads is 105. 3 Serpents to 3 squads is 330 base, before upgrades/weapons. When they were stupidly OP gunboats, that wasn't considered a problem. But Eldar infantry are very Transport-reliant.

The Web way portal is not a transport, it's a delivery system like teleport.
Drop pods you can argue are not a transport, since you can't destroy them until after they've done their job.

Transports are tanks thar deliver infantry to where they need to go. In this capacity, wave serpents are second to only drop pods. They are extremely safe, decent firepower, fast, and not absurdly expensive for what you get.

If the Web way portal counts as a transport anyway, then the waveserpent is still the next best one after drop pods and wwp.

You may see rhinos in a list, may, but predators are rarely taken. They are pretty bad.

OP

I wouldn't play against Eldar before this codex update. Now, I definetly wouldn't.

You have a codex where 100pts can buy you what in another army would cost 3 times the amount. Access to multiple lords of war and d weapons. Access to formation and army wide bonuses that massively increase the armies effectiveness for free. Some armies the power difference is not as great such as Tau and Space Marines. But the likes of my tyranids and dark eldar it would be a pointless excersice even if the eldar player was not trying to be gamey.

GW needs to update every single codex. Until they do that and bring other codexes in line with eldar or nerf eldar then there is no point. The book has clearly been designed in the new post necron design, so its unfair to rock up with the likes of Dark Eldar because the army is shockingly inferior by comparison.

If you want fair games then I would house rule to double the points cost of almost every unit in that codex to factor in formation buffs and all the boosts these units have recieved.

.

For all the talk about "reasonable Eldar lists", there have been very few examples of such lists posted here. This is my first idea of what a reasonable list would look like with the new codex that I posted in the Army Lists page, with some alterations after feedback. .

I present 1750 points of lore-friendly semi-competitive Biel-Tan/Swordwind high-elves-in-space goodness:

CORE DETACHMENT: Guardian Battlehost (970 points)

Farseer
-Warlord
-Singing Spear
-The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan

Warlock Conclave
3x Warlocks

Guardian Defenders (X3)
-Starcannon Weapon Platforms

Vyper Squadron
2x Vypers
-Shuriken Cannon
-Scatter Laser
-Holo Fields

Vaul's Wrath Support Battery
3x Vibro Cannon

War Walker Squadron
3x War Walkers
-Bright Lance
-Eldar Missile Launcher

AUXILIARY DETACHMENT: Aspect Host (780 points)

Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
-Exarch with power sword and shimmershield
Wave Serpent Dedicated Transport
-TL Scatter Laser
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo Fields

Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
-Exarch with Firepike
Wave Serpent Dedicated Transport
-TL Scatter Laser
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo Fields

Warp Spiders
10x Warp Spiders
-Exarch with TL Death Spinner

I feel that most armies at a friendly/semi-competitive level could stand a good chance of beating this army if my opponent plays well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
No game is better than a bad game.

totally agree, a bad game can make me not want to play again for weeks. And flyrants are just as undercosted/overpowered as anything in the new eldar book. Ive had tons of trouble with them in the past but frankly the crimson hunter and in particular the 3 pack with improved rules will murder 3 flyrants for alot less points. If your concerned about being that guy with the new eldar, to me the only overpowered thing is the d-scythes teleporting in with a DE web way portal. avoid that and i imagine most of the complaining will cease, the bikes in a real game world scenario are not as good as the math hammering crybabies on this forum would lead you to believe. Its hard to hide 30-40 bikes as some would lead you to believe is all they would field.

I know that feeling all too well. Some of my friends have been burned out for weeks after having a particularly unpleasant game.

Eldar do not have a monopoly on broken and overpowered units. Centstar, Pentatyrant, Decurion Wraith spam, Screamerstar, and anything involving invisibility (Hi, Bel'akor!) can be just as cheesy, and I reserve the right to refuse to play against any of them.

D-weapons, Scatbikers, and the Wraithknight are all overpowered and undercosted. I wouldn't play an Eldar player who spammed these units, and I completely understand why people are upset about them. But they are no more cheesy at a friendly level than the examples I have given.

There are two others upthread. One uses CAD+Formation, the other is a single CAD.

I ran the points on the one I posted, and wow. What was 1500pts is now 1407. I'll either add Shining Spears or swap out the Serpent for a Falcon and add Banshees.

WWP and Drop Pod are more deliver than Transport, sure.

My point about the Predator wasnt that you should take them. My point was comparing a Rhino to a Serpent isnt a great comparison. It'd be a lot closer to compare a Rhino plus a Predator to a Serpent. Its a battle tank *and* a transport, and pays for both. Too much dakka in the last book (and the nerf probably should have been a little steeper), but not so much in the new book.

Compare the Serpent to the Ghost Ark. Ghost Ark doesn't have Fast, but probably does more snapshotting than the Serpent does at full BS. On top of several other benefits.

Or compare it to the Devilfish. A little worse in each category. But 30ppm cheaper.

The Serpent isn't anything super special anymore.

Bharring wrote:
There are two others upthread. One uses CAD+Formation, the other is a single CAD.

I ran the points on the one I posted, and wow. What was 1500pts is now 1407. I'll either add Shining Spears or swap out the Serpent for a Falcon and add Banshees.

WWP and Drop Pod are more deliver than Transport, sure.

My point about the Predator wasnt that you should take them. My point was comparing a Rhino to a Serpent isnt a great comparison. It'd be a lot closer to compare a Rhino plus a Predator to a Serpent. Its a battle tank *and* a transport, and pays for both. Too much dakka in the last book (and the nerf probably should have been a little steeper), but not so much in the new book.

My point was that the WS is better then taking both of these. It's arguably tougher, does a better job then both of them at their respective job, and is just an amazing buy. Yes, the shield got nerfed, but it's still the best transport in the game. Not delivery method (if we are placing Drop pods and WWP here), but far and away the best transport.

Bharring wrote:

Compare the Serpent to the Ghost Ark. Ghost Ark doesn't have Fast, but probably does more snapshotting than the Serpent does at full BS. On top of several other benefits.

Or compare it to the Devilfish. A little worse in each category. But 30ppm cheaper.

The Serpent isn't anything super special anymore.

The Ghost ark is an amazing transport. I would rate it right after the serpent. Before the 6th edition eldar codex, it was the best of the best. People did spam it, people complained about it.
The devilfish, however, is awful. This is in part because it lacks the firepower of a serpent, the units it transports don't need a transport as badly, and it is not quite as survivable. People are not lining up to take devilfishes.

The serpent is not massively better then all other tanks in the game like it used to be, but it is still hands down the best transport in the game. If it seems weak, that is because the eldar dex is very strong. If I had a WS I'd take chosen armed with plasma guns, meltas, and flamers in my army.

Firepower of the Devilfish is terrible.

4xS5 @18", BS3
4xS5 pinning @18", bs2

Serpent, stock, is comparable:
3xS6 pseudorending @24", bs4 TL
2x S4 pseudorending @12", bs4 TL

I certainly wouldn't call the stock Serpent's firepower all that much better.

Even with a heavy weapon instead of that Cannon, its firepower still isn't much for its points. 125 points for a single (albeit TL) Flak missile launcher?

Akiasura wrote:
Usually I can score 2 hits with a small blast, sometimes I can score 3. Very rarely do I get 1.

Our group is very careful with the placement, I usually clip 1 or 2 with the 3" blast marker, or miss completely.

I often see or read reports where 3+ hits are scored all the time, I find that weird.

It also heavily depends on a YMDC thread about vehicle movement. I've always assumed it was no-part-may-move-more, not the 'bubble method'.

And let's think about the Serpent being(a) tougher (b) a better battle tank (c) a better transport, and (d) a better buy.

(A) Is the Wave Serpent tougher than a Predator plus a Rhino? Half the IoM hull points are ACV13 front, and sit in the backfield. That is huge. S6 does nothing. S7 can only glance. Side armor, and the other 3 HP, are only AV11. And it can't jink. Twice the HP, comparable AV. With no cover, and ignoring being forced to snapshot, it seems a bit even, until the Serpent Shield factors in. So are (1) taking cover saves (should be a 5+ at least for the Pred), (2) not needing to Snapshot, and (3) reducing Pens to Glances on a 2+ vs pens only affecting half the vehicles balance it out? I'd say that the pair of vehicles easily win the hiw-tough comparison.

(B) Battle tank firepower
Dakka Preds are
-2xS7 AP4 TL @48"
-6xS5 AP4 @36"
Rhinos
-2xS4 AP5 @24"
-2X Fire points

Dakka Serpents are:
-4xS6 AP6 TL @35"
-3xS6 AP5 pseudoRending @24"

I'd give that, easily, to the IoM duo. Not that the Rhino adds much.

How about stock?
Pred:
2xS7 AP4 TL @48"
Rhino:
2xS4 AP5 @24"
2xFirepoints

Serpent:
3x S6 AP5 Pseudorending TL @24"
2x S4 AP5 Pseudorending TL @12"

So half the range for both weapons.
The 'main' weapon has half again the shots, at one less S. And AP5 pseudorendig (less than 1 AP2 every other round) vs AP4.Would be comparable, if it weren't so much shorter range.
The incidental weapon is the same S and number of shots, but less than 1 AP2 wound every third round. At 12", though, if its shooting anything, its in easy charge range. Storm Bolter easily wins here.



(C) Better transport
Serpent
-12 cap
-No fire points
-Only access in the rear
Rhino
-10 cap
-2 fire points
-Access in the rear + sides

Serpent can get past impassible terrain, and the contents are less likely to explode.

Serpent needs to expose rear armor to the enemy, whereas Rhino only needs to expose side

Rhino passengers can fire 2 weapons from inside

Serpent is much less likely to explodes! (Very important when what your transporting will lose half to a third of their numbers in the case of an explosion).

I'd give Transport to the Serpent, but not by a lot.

(D) A better buy. See above. Stock, 110 is a lot for a transport. Kitted, its even more.

The Serpent is a decent vehicle, but again I think it compares reasonably to Marine options.

(Swordwind would love a 35pt transport!)

Bharring wrote:
It also heavily depends on a YMDC thread about vehicle movement. I've always assumed it was no-part-may-move-more, not the 'bubble method'.

And let's think about the Serpent being(a) tougher (b) a better battle tank (c) a better transport, and (d) a better buy.

(A) Is the Wave Serpent tougher than a Predator plus a Rhino? Half the IoM hull points are ACV13 front, and sit in the backfield. That is huge. S6 does nothing. S7 can only glance. Side armor, and the other 3 HP, are only AV11. And it can't jink. Twice the HP, comparable AV. With no cover, and ignoring being forced to snapshot, it seems a bit even, until the Serpent Shield factors in. So are (1) taking cover saves (should be a 5+ at least for the Pred), (2) not needing to Snapshot, and (3) reducing Pens to Glances on a 2+ vs pens only affecting half the vehicles balance it out? I'd say that the pair of vehicles easily win the hiw-tough comparison.

It's harder for a Predator and rhino to get to cover then a waveserpent. Jinking is also huge. The waveserpent has a much easier time targeting those vulnerable side and rear armor then any of the other tanks mentioned. Sometimes predators don't get to fire if they can't draw LoS to a useful target.
Keep in mind that I need to do less damage to one of those tanks to reduce the firepower/transport ability. A rhino is pretty easy to one round, no more transport. A predator is also not hard to one round from the side (And honestly, with quick transports, bikes, deep striking, flying, and melee being commonly taken anti-tank threats, how often does the front armor come up?
Again, there are reasons that nobody takes predators (rhinos are somewhat common, though many marine armies seem to prefer bikes and deep striking lately) but eldar are still taking waveserpents. Defensively, nearly nothing has changed outside of the shield not working after it shoots, which you should save till the end anyway.

Bharring wrote:

(B) Battle tank firepower
Dakka Preds are
-2xS7 AP4 TL @48"
-6xS5 AP4 @36"
Rhinos
-2xS4 AP5 @24"
-2X Fire points

Dakka Serpents are:
-4xS6 AP6 TL @35"
-3xS6 AP5 pseudoRending @24"


I'd give that, easily, to the IoM duo. Not that the Rhino adds much.

The problem with the predator, despite the range issue and how slow it is, is that the autocannon really wants to fire at MC or light transports, and the heavy bolters do not. You can't split fire, so it makes the tank kinda worthless. The las pred is better, since at least everything it fires wants the same target.
Keep in mind that the Serpent has rending (kinda) to at least make AP 2/3 guys an option, and twice as much twin link. It wants to fire all of it's weapons at the same target, MC's and light tanks, so no firepower is wasted. The waveserpent is more likely to get side armor shots, while the predator can only target front armor unless your opponent isn't paying attention.
Again, to me, the serpent seems to have the firepower advantage here. I don't know how you are saying easily so many times. The fact you hardly ever see predators taken but see serpents often should be a clue that maybe one is vastly superior to the other.
If serpents aren't popular, it'll be in scatter bike spam lists, not in aspect heavy lists. FD's still desperately want the WS, as do banshees. Other aspects might be able to get by without it (SS, WS, DR especially) but it's a solid choice since it is such a useful tank.

Bharring wrote:

(C) Better transport
Serpent
-12 cap
-No fire points
-Only access in the rear
Rhino
-10 cap
-2 fire points
-Access in the rear + sides

Serpent can get past impassible terrain, and the contents are less likely to explode.

Serpent needs to expose rear armor to the enemy, whereas Rhino only needs to expose side

Rhino passengers can fire 2 weapons from inside

Serpent is much less likely to explodes! (Very important when what your transporting will lose half to a third of their numbers in the case of an explosion).

I'd give Transport to the Serpent, but not by a lot.

It's faster, more survivable, and has a better cargo. It doesn't get shot off the table turn 1 as an afterthought without doing its job like Rhinos do.
I'd give it to the serpent by quite a bit.

Bharring wrote:

(D) A better buy. See above. Stock, 110 is a lot for a transport. Kitted, its even more.

The Serpent is a decent vehicle, but again I think it compares reasonably to Marine options.

(Swordwind would love a 35pt transport!)

And yet it compares reasonably well to both a predator and a rhino, for a comparable point cost.
Again, marines aren't spamming rhinos and predators. Eldar were spamming wave serpents, and they are still being taken. There is a reason for this.
If rhinos were in eldar I don't think they'd be taken. You don't want them to die T1 and expose the expensive Firedragons inside, which is what rhinos do.


Naw, A lot of the local players use tyranid swarm armies, deep strikes still, and orks. There are a few eldar players. My most common opponent uses DE, where I have a hard time getting 3 shots, but my next most common is orks and nids. It's pretty easy to get 3 on them. I also roll really well on scatter.
I'll agree that 1-2 is the more common number statistically. I didn't think I needed to lower it that much to show that aspects are superior to noise marines.

With Jink, the Serpent gets a 4+ cover anywhere. However it snap fires. Its turret is TL, but its chincannon is not. While jinking, it only gets maybe 2 hits a round as a dakka Serpent. Loss of Laser Lock changed that quite a bit. So a 4+ cover save in the open. Compared to twice the HP. Plus more than halving its firepower. I thought Jink was covered reasonably.

Outside of Jinking, the Serpent is a much taller vehicle, and is on a skimmer stand. So getting enough cover to count requires more, *and* the cover must be raised higher. Predator sponsons are a bit low, so making sure they can still get LOS is an issue, but the chincannon is lower still, and is the lowest point on the tank. It is much easier for my pred to get cover than my Serpents. I had a round in a tournament where none of the terrain in our entire ruins-covered deployment zone could provide cover to my skimmers.

You may have also missed the change to Holofields. No more +1 cover. It is a 5++, so jinking in the open isn't as necessary. But, for things without Ignores Cover, the Serpent is much less durable now.

We saw Serpents taken in the old Dex because they were amazing gunboats, and hard to kill. Now, they have little firepower for the points, and good, but much worse survivability.

We'll still see them, because they are the only DT, and the only other transport both costs more points, and has a transport cap of 6.

We see Rhinos because its few points to get guys places. Predators usually lose out to Devs or Havoks (which also tend to lose out to things).

As for the Blade storm threatening 2+ MCs more than Dakka Preds, let's take a look.
Vs Dreadknights:
Serpent:
SL: 4X(8/9)(1/2)(1/6) = (32)/(108) =~0.30
SC: 3x (2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = (6/54) =~0.11
. +. 3x (2/3)(1/6)(1/2) = (6)/(36) =~0.16
Total: 0.57 wounds/round

Dakka Pred + Rhino
AC: 2x (8/9)(2/3)(1/6) = (32)/(162) =~ 0.20
HB: 3x2x (2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = (12)/(54) = ~0.22
SB: 2x(2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 4/108 = ~ 0.04
Total: 0.46

So the Serpent is less than 25% better at shooting a Dreadknight. But has to be within 24" to shoot anything. And dies to one round of CC whereas Rhino + Dread take two rounds.

Neither are particularly a good idea for shooting a DK, but it is one place the Dakka serpent does more damage.

(For the number-of-hits, the 3-5 was for both templates. Averaging 2 per template doesn't seem high. And I still think you're undervaluing ignores cover on a S8AP3 weapon. And ablaitive wounds.)

I'd rather have wounds that perform than ablative wounds.

Bharring wrote:
With Jink, the Serpent gets a 4+ cover anywhere. However it snap fires. Its turret is TL, but its chincannon is not. While jinking, it only gets maybe 2 hits a round as a dakka Serpent. Loss of Laser Lock changed that quite a bit. So a 4+ cover save in the open. Compared to twice the HP. Plus more than halving its firepower. I thought Jink was covered reasonably.

Right, I mentioned it had more TL then the predator. A pred has 1 or 2 shots that are TL and a WS has 4.
Jink is not a weakness. The choice is jinking or blowing up. The ability to get a 4+ cover save anywhere on the field is really good. The predator must deploy in the back with cover, which units like devastators/longfangs want (and longfangs are a lot better).

Bharring wrote:

Outside of Jinking, the Serpent is a much taller vehicle, and is on a skimmer stand. So getting enough cover to count requires more, *and* the cover must be raised higher. Predator sponsons are a bit low, so making sure they can still get LOS is an issue, but the chincannon is lower still, and is the lowest point on the tank. It is much easier for my pred to get cover than my Serpents. I had a round in a tournament where none of the terrain in our entire ruins-covered deployment zone could provide cover to my skimmers.

Then that is a problem with your tournaments. Many fields include LoS blocking terrain that completely screws over predators, who can't get around it quickly, and greatly benefits waveserpents.
Predators have issues firing all of their weapons at a target without exposing their side armor. WS don't have this issue.

Bharring wrote:

You may have also missed the change to Holofields. No more +1 cover. It is a 5++, so jinking in the open isn't as necessary. But, for things without Ignores Cover, the Serpent is much less durable now.

Most things that ignore cover aren't great anti-tank weapons. Most are anti-infantry weapons. The best way to destroy tanks is still to fly to the side or rear and destroy it, which tends to negate cover. At least the cover used by a predator, being so immobile.

Bharring wrote:

We saw Serpents taken in the old Dex because they were amazing gunboats, and hard to kill. Now, they have little firepower for the points, and good, but much worse survivability.

Much worse is a stretch, and we've discussed how they still have great firepower. Better then a predator anyway.

Bharring wrote:

We'll still see them, because they are the only DT, and the only other transport both costs more points, and has a transport cap of 6.

Many armies don't take transports at all, yet eldar will continue to use the WS. This is for many reasons, but the WS isn't a bad tank. You haven't shown it's a bad tank at all.

Bharring wrote:

We see Rhinos because its few points to get guys places. Predators usually lose out to Devs or Havoks (which also tend to lose out to things).

Waveserpents are more commonly taken then rhinos, IMO.
Exactly, predators have awful fire power. Yet the Waveserpent is still a great tank, both offensively and defensively.

Bharring wrote:

As for the Blade storm threatening 2+ MCs more than Dakka Preds, let's take a look.
Vs Dreadknights:
Serpent:
SL: 4X(8/9)(1/2)(1/6) = (32)/(108) =~0.30
SC: 3x (2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = (6/54) =~0.11
. +. 3x (2/3)(1/6)(1/2) = (6)/(36) =~0.16
Total: 0.57 wounds/round

Dakka Pred + Rhino
AC: 2x (8/9)(2/3)(1/6) = (32)/(162) =~ 0.20
HB: 3x2x (2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = (12)/(54) = ~0.22
SB: 2x(2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 4/108 = ~ 0.04
Total: 0.46

So the Serpent is less than 25% better at shooting a Dreadknight. But has to be within 24" to shoot anything. And dies to one round of CC whereas Rhino + Dread take two rounds.

Neither are particularly a good idea for shooting a DK, but it is one place the Dakka serpent does more damage.

(For the number-of-hits, the 3-5 was for both templates. Averaging 2 per template doesn't seem high. And I still think you're undervaluing ignores cover on a S8AP3 weapon. And ablaitive wounds.)

Right, so it's about 20% better at shooting a target. That's significant on a platform that isn't designed to be a MT. Remember, you are the one who claimed that the IoM won this by a huge amount. I never said it was a great option, just A option.
Against most targets, the WS will likely outperform the predator and rhino due to the advantage of wanting to target the same enemy with all of its weapons.

Melee will destroy a serpent easier, but good luck catching one. It's faster/as fast as any melee unit. Rhinos don't have the disgusting speed advantage and a predator wants to sit in the corner and shoot. They are more likely to get targeted in melee then a serpent. Speed is a defense. In many cases, it is the best defense given the limited turns of the game.

2 per template makes it about 4, people are claiming it's 1-2. Statistically this is correct. 2-4 would be the average number of hits for 2 small blast templates. I went with a higher number to prove my point.
It is not me undervaluing a ignores cover S8AP3 weapon. Considering the points you spend, it is a weaker option then plague marines. It is pretty widely agreed that plague marines are the best cult unit by a good margin, with noise marines being a distant second. The others are so bad they don't enter into the equation at all.
Ablative wounds are bad. Competitive lists take as few of these as possible, preferring a strong alpha punch unit that can either
A: always get an alpha punch via dropping or WS (like FD)
B: Are absurdly tough (Cent-stars)
Ablative wounds are not competitive.

It is not just me you are disagreeing with. It is the entire competitive meta.
And you are doing it without sticking to the same points, constantly moving them around.

Please prove the waveserpent has bad firepower. The one number run you did, they had 20% better firepower and it's not an optimal target.
Please prove the waveserpent has bad toughness. It seems like an absurdly tough tank to me.

Also, please keep in mind that my original argument was that the waveserpent is the best transport in the game.
You disagreed, suggesting we compare it to both predators and rhinos, which (IMO), are still losing this by quite a bit.

Those numbers were to demonstrate that, even with the target you provided as a place that Serpents kick Predator ass, Serpents were only mildly better. Still takes 9 rounds of Serpent shooting, or 11 rounds of Predator shooting, to kill one riptide. Yes, its a bad target for a dakka pred. Still a bad target for the Dakka Serpent too.

Against Guardsmen:
Dakka Pred:
AC: 2x (8/9)(5/6)(1) = 80/54 =~1.5
HB: 2x3x (2/3)(5/6)(1) = 60/18 =~3.3
Total: 4.8 dead Guardsmen

Dakka Serpent:
SL: 4x(8/9)(5/6)(2/3) = 320 /108 = 3
SC: 3x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 30/18 = 1.6
Total: 4.6

So Dakka Pred wins. Lower cost. +12" range.

Against Fire Warriors/Dire Avengers/etc:
Dakka Pred:
Same as above, 4.8

Serpent
SL: 4x(8/9)(5/6)(1/2) = 160/108 = 1.5
SC: 3x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 12/18 = .6
+. 3x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 6/18 = .3

Dakka pred kills 4.8, Serpent kills 2.5. Again, dakka pred wins.

The vs a t6 2+/3++ MC was the posterboy of the example of a time where a Pred is useless, and a Serpent kicks ass. As shown, even then, the Serpent is only marginally better.

And a Dakka Pred doesn't cost 140 points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps a Chimera would be a better comparison.

You claim a Serpent is the best transport in the game.

How does it outperform the Ghost Ark?
AV13 vs AV12, but the Serpent gan downgrade pens to a glance vs Open Topped. Could go either way.

Jink. Cuts the Ghost Arks shooting a little more than a Serpent, but not by much. But doesn't affect the guys inside.

Shooting. 20xS4 Gauss at 24". Even with them both jinking, that is a crapton more deadly than 7xS6, even if 3 of those have Blade storm. Plus the guys inside should be another 10-20 shots, whereas the guys in the Serpent can do nothing until they disembark.

Movement: Ark snapfires if it moves 12", but does so anyways if jinking.

Cost: 105 GA, 140 kitted Serpent.

Not seeing it.

Yes, the Wave Serpent is the best dedicated transport in the game; it combines high mobility, good firepower, solid (but decreased) survivability, and a good transport capacity.

It is also the most expensive dedicated transport in the game. With their standard loadout, they are on a par points-wise with the Predator Annihilator.

I still think that people should have the right to refuse a game against serpent spam, especially if combined with the Dire Avenger host.

Bharring wrote:
Those numbers were to demonstrate that, even with the target you provided as a place that Serpents kick Predator ass, Serpents were only mildly better. Still takes 9 rounds of Serpent shooting, or 11 rounds of Predator shooting, to kill one riptide. Yes, its a bad target for a dakka pred. Still a bad target for the Dakka Serpent too.

Against Guardsmen:
Dakka Pred:
AC: 2x (8/9)(5/6)(1) = 80/54 =~1.5
HB: 2x3x (2/3)(5/6)(1) = 60/18 =~3.3
Total: 4.8 dead Guardsmen

Dakka Serpent:
SL: 4x(8/9)(5/6)(2/3) = 320 /108 = 3
SC: 3x(2/3)(5/6)(1) = 30/18 = 1.6
Total: 4.6

So Dakka Pred wins. Lower cost. +12" range.

Against Fire Warriors/Dire Avengers/etc:
Dakka Pred:
Same as above, 4.8

Serpent
SL: 4x(8/9)(5/6)(1/2) = 160/108 = 1.5
SC: 3x(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 12/18 = .6
+. 3x(2/3)(1/6)(1) = 6/18 = .3

Dakka pred kills 4.8, Serpent kills 2.5. Again, dakka pred wins.

The vs a t6 2+/3++ MC was the posterboy of the example of a time where a Pred is useless, and a Serpent kicks ass. As shown, even then, the Serpent is only marginally better.

And a Dakka Pred doesn't cost 140 points.

This example is remarkably skewed towards an unrealistic scenario.
A cover save reduces the predator's firepower to the point where it is losing again, and most of those troops will hug cover. And a T3 (so S5 and 6 are the same) 4/5+ save model outside of cover is probably the only good example you'll find.
Those models will grab cover when available.

A 20% increase in firepower isn't marginally better. It's an extra round of shooting over the course of the game. The shield can still be used to bump this number up.

Needing 9 Serpents to kill 1 Riptide isn't hugely different from needing 11 Predators to kill 1 Riptide. Both are a really bad idea. But when phrased as needing 1280 points of Wave Serpents or 1045 points of Predators to kill 1 Riptide, perhaps the difference will be a little more obvious.

I hadn't realised so many people thought the Serpent was so bonkers, post nerf. I really don't think it'll be that competitive.