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BobtheInquisitor wrote: I didn't call it a sexy show. I simply offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous bar metaphor that implied TNG had no adult themes or content.
It had all the adult themes the local yacht club would have, and about as exciting.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Graphite wrote: So the logic is that it's bad because a character called Khan is in it, and it isn't as good as Wrath of Khan?
No, it's bad because it's trying to re-tell Wrath of Khan to milk the cash cow of fanboy nostalgia. There was no reason to include Khan at all, except to try to generate some nostalgia appeal that a new character wouldn't have. And that's just bad writing.
But NONE of the Trek movies are as good as Wrath of Khan, so that's a pretty damn high bar to set.
Then why try to copy Wrath of Khan? If you can't live up to the original then why sell your movie as a copy of it? At least do something new and different!
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Graphite wrote: So the logic is that it's bad because a character called Khan is in it, and it isn't as good as Wrath of Khan?
No, it's bad because it's trying to re-tell Wrath of Khan to milk the cash cow of fanboy nostalgia. There was no reason to include Khan at all, except to try to generate some nostalgia appeal that a new character wouldn't have. And that's just bad writing.
Don't forget people asked specifically if it was Khan, several times, leading up to te movies and each and every time were told that it was not Khan. So not only was he unnecessary there was a great deal of deception going on about it to boot. That and the writing in general was awful. It does look good in 3D though.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I didn't call it a sexy show. I simply offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous bar metaphor that implied TNG had no adult themes or content.
It had all the adult themes the local yacht club would have, and about as exciting.
Obviously, you've never been to my local yacht club
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Ahtman wrote: I think the main difference between TOS and TNG isn't whether one was progressive or action oriented, but that TOS was fun and entertaining while TNG was boring. God was it boring. SOOOOOOOOOOO boring.
And when it wasn't too busy being boring, it was busy being Seasme Street for grown up nerds. Seriously, how many times in the series was there an episode involving Worf learning to cooperate? Or Riker trying to teach the child-like alien-humans that differences are what make us great? Or that by just being good people, bad people would see that they were wrong and stop being bad... just because?
And how many times did Wesley save the ship? (Not that that is Sesame Street stuff)
The thing I remember is that every other episode they'd be faced with Menace/Dilemma X, and Geordi or Wesley would "reconfigure the main deflector dish" to create plot resolution. Because technobabble. Which is fairly terrible writing.
The show was on a long time, and its fans remember the standout episodes. But there was a ton of repetitive mediocrity in between.
Another point that even my father, who had a passing interest in STTNG when it was on, noticed was that Worf got his ass kicked. A lot. Which is pretty lame for your toughest guy to be a total glassjaw.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I didn't call it a sexy show. I simply offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous bar metaphor that implied TNG had no adult themes or content.
It had all the adult themes the local yacht club would have, and about as exciting.
Obviously, you've never been to my local yacht club
Actually caught a few episodes last night (Pegasus, one involving Worf's Brother). It reminded me:
*Picard is a preaching little bureaucrat who in two episodes: pretty much committed treason against humanity by alerting the Romulans to key technology the Fed had developed against it and potentially started a war for...reasons. he also put his second in command in an untenable position by trying to breach the chain of command (what the ?)
*Picard blithely sentenced an entire group of people to death like a true bureaucrat citing a regulation. Everyone else is high and mighty. But when faced with the actual people, he can't do the deed himself. What a .
*interesting problems that bring up real issues are overcome by deux ex machinas on a minute by minute basis. medieval level person gets off holodeck and is faced with revealing the Enterprise to his people or living a lie so he immediately kills himself...WTF?
*I remember how stilted the writing and dialog is.
Yea its attack of the cardboard people. I'm shocked how ST survived TNG.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Graphite wrote: So the logic is that it's bad because a character called Khan is in it, and it isn't as good as Wrath of Khan?
No, it's bad because it's trying to re-tell Wrath of Khan to milk the cash cow of fanboy nostalgia. There was no reason to include Khan at all, except to try to generate some nostalgia appeal that a new character wouldn't have. And that's just bad writing.
Don't forget people asked specifically if it was Khan, several times, leading up to te movies and each and every time were told that it was not Khan. So not only was he unnecessary there was a great deal of deception going on about it to boot. That and the writing in general was awful. It does look good in 3D though.
It really does just come down to bad writing. It's quite possible to rewrite the Khan story in the new ST universe, and to do it very well, but they failed to do so. In trying to capture nostalgia, they lost the soul of it.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Frazzled wrote: Yea its attack of the cardboard people. I'm shocked how ST survived TNG.
IMO, genre fans -- and ST fans are an extra-special bunch within that group -- aren't very particular. They might be vocal. They might even complain a lot. But when push comes to shove, if it's sci-fi, they'll watch it.
I also think that many ST fans have reached a certain comfort level with stiff and stilted. I remember reading harsh comments from fans about Enterprise, just because the opening credits didn't feature an orchestral suite and Federation ships soaring through space. Personally, I think what marked Enterprise is how much sameness there was, even as the studio execs talked about wanting to shake things up.
I think there's a definite set of ST fans who don't like the Abrams films -- alternate timelines and such aside -- simply *because* they're more action-packed and visceral. They're much more comfortable with Picard lecturing about Federation policies. But then they still paid to watch the Abrams films, because at the end of the day it's sci-fi and ST.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
jasper76 wrote: I serverd with Ricardo Montalban. I knew Ricardo Montalban. Ricardo Montalban was a friend of mine. Mr. Cumbercrunch, you're no Ricardo Montalban.
It was peculiar casting, to say the least. They needed someone who could generate some animal magnetism, even if it was in a hammy way like Montalban.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I didn't call it a sexy show. I simply offered a counterpoint to the ridiculous bar metaphor that implied TNG had no adult themes or content.
It had all the adult themes the local yacht club would have, and about as exciting.
But Frazz, don't you know how the Kaiser attending the sailing regatta for the Queen's Jubilee led to all sorts of shenanigans*.
Compare TNG to any other show around that time, and you will see they were all that way. it was the style at the time, like tying onions to your belt!
* In this case, the term Shenanigans refers to World War I
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/05 16:42:19
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Thanks for the article, gorgon. I don't agree with it though. Star Trek has always dealt with mature themes. All of the series have gone to some pretty dark places. TOS was known for its sexy times (though I admit that the other series handled sex poorly). I do agree that the new series needs to be relevant to our times. But it needs to be optimistic and hopeful. Force should be considered the last option and diplomacy is vital.
People asking for a BSG style reboot worry me. Trek should not be depressing. It should be inspiring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/05 16:53:02
AdeptSister wrote: Thanks for the article, gorgon. I don't agree with it though. Star Trek has always dealt with mature themes. All of the series have gone to some pretty dark places. TOS was known for its sexy times (though I admit that the other series handled sex poorly). I do agree that the new series needs to be relevant to our times. But it needs to be optimistic and hopeful. Force should be considered the last option and diplomacy is vital.
People asking for a BSG style reboot worry me. Trek should not be depressing. It should be inspiring.
indeed. It can still be inspiring, with better writing and more human actors. A problem with Voyager (and Entprise in many ways) was it stuck with the TNG's antiseptic cardboard people.
Jeez they had a seen in what passes for the TNG bar NO ONE WAS DRINKING ANYTHING.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Khornholio wrote: Another point that even my father, who had a passing interest in STTNG when it was on, noticed was that Worf got his ass kicked. A lot. Which is pretty lame for your toughest guy to be a total glassjaw.
It happened enough that it became the name of a trope. Essentially it is setting up a character as tough just to beat them down to make something else appear even tougher.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Something I think the producers and writers underestimated with Voyager is that by taking Starfleet and the Federation out of the story...they immediately lost all those kinds of potential storylines.
I hazard to guess that inter-crew tensions were supposed to fill that void somewhat (and IIRC that was what we were told in the press), but after the pilot episode, they smoothed over 90% of that.
Berman and company were almost cult-like about the whole enterprise (pun intended) and the way the characters had to be part of one big happy family, Federation, etc. Always a healthy dose of sunshine and light. DS9 was superior to most of the rest because it at least pushed those boundaries, although it never really broke them either.
And I agree with Frazz that it's possible to write a modern, optimistic ST series that shows characters in more realistic and naturalistic ways. Have the characters strive to do the right thing, but portray them in complex situations, or in situations in which it's hard to decipher what the right thing is. Or even show them failing, but learning from it. Show some crew relationships that look like normal adult relationships with all their complications.
I actually think the article nailed it by saying that Star Trek needs to grow up a little. That doesn't mean brooding and darkness.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I'm so excited by this news. I don't mind admitting I'm a huge trekkie.
As people have already said, it needs to be a show of it's times. TNG may seem odd now, but at the time it was first on TV it was very comparable to other popular shows in terms of themes and pacing.
I grew up watching TNG and DS9, and my sense of morality is heavily influenced by them.
The biggest worry is this is being put behind a pay wall, how many people won't see this because they don't have the CBS service. By putting it out this way it ensures that only hardcore trek fans who go out of their way to get hold of this will see it.
Living in the UK i'm assuming the easiest way to see this will be to pirate it, which I don't like doing, and won't put money in CBS's pockets. Increasing the chance it will get cancelled after only 1 or 2 seasons.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
President of Paramount’s Motion Picture Group recently told WIRED that he wants to “take advantage” of unexplored parts of the Star Trek universe going forward with future films, throwing out such “ridiculous” ideas as ‘Star Trek: Zero Dark Thirty’ and meeting the SEAL Team Six of the Star Trek universe. After the action-adventure shoot-em-up blow-em-up blockbuster that was Into Darkness, Paramount wanting a “less Star Trek-y” script, and the head of the reboot proclaiming that Star Trek is “too philosophical”, is this another indication that Paramount really has no idea how to do Star Trek?
Marc Evans, president of Paramount’s Motion Picture Group sat down with WIRED recently to talk about Star Wars, Star Trek, and more. The article focused on the Star Wars franchise, its continued success, and recent plans to develop Star Wars: Rogue One, a “Star Wars story” set to hit theaters on December 16th, 2016. Trek didn’t get much attention in the interview, but its brief mention may be indicative of a systemic issue within the heads of Paramount execs that see Star Trek as an action-adventure story, rather than the thought provoking cerebral sci-fi that we know and love.
On the heels of a conversation about the premise of Rogue One, Marc Evans told WIRED:
“I often think about the areas of the Star Trek universe that haven’t been taken advantage of,” Paramount’s Evans says. “Like, I’ll be ridiculous with you, but what would Star Trek: Zero Dark Thirty look like? Where is the SEAL Team Six of the Star Trek universe? That fascinates me.”
Hey, Paramount. I’ve gone ahead an made the promo material for Star Trek XIV, whose working title is Star Trek: Call of Duty. There would then be three spin-off films in an epic cross-over with the Transformers universe (directed, of course, by Michael Bay).
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
hotsauceman1 wrote: Gak Thats All Gak. This is why Im putting off DS9. i want one new series to watch. so if I never watch it. I have a new series.
Wait...I thought it (the new show) will only be available at CBS all access?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/18 19:48:26
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Well, I sure hope they'll handle the subject matter with the subtlety and tact Star Trek is known for... Can't wait for the Altairian Waterboarding episode.
PS: For those who thought TNG was sexless, look what happens what the computer provides when Troi asks for a table. The computer didn't anticipate a need for restraints when Geordi asked.
And the idea of a Star Trek: Seal Team Six makes me sad.
And last time I checked (which was a while ago), so was TNG, Voyager, TOS and Enterprise
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: Well, I sure hope they'll handle the subject matter with the subtlety and tact Star Trek is known for... Can't wait for the Altairian Waterboarding episode.
PS: For those who thought TNG was sexless, look what happens what the computer provides when Troi asks for a table. The computer didn't anticipate a need for restraints when Geordi asked.
Wow, yeah. I almost expected Jon Lovitz to show up as the 'Ribald Tales' guy.
Again, I think what some of us are talking about are realistic adult relationships, not some obscure wink or nod here or there.
Edit: And there were cerebral, thought-provoking ST films? I wouldn't have called any of them that exactly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/18 21:23:23
Before everyone craps on it, a star trek series based around a core of inter species special forces (delta team or whatever sto calls them) could actually be good, or them being sent all over to do morally ambiguous jobs for the federation, there's your human emotional conflict right there, if written properly, it could work.
Yeah, not sure why people are losing their gak over the idea itself. It's a decent idea. Star Trek: Section 31 or Star Trek: Temporal Affairs could be cool shows with a sort of special forces vibe to them. Granted, I think I'd rather have those as movies than a full tv series. I'd prefer a TV series with the classic formula of "these are the journeys with Captain X, and his/her crew doing stuff all over."
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