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 PsychoticStorm wrote:

But in this thread I am thinking about the wargames are a unified whole.

So it's all bout building an army in the intention to play it with a friend on a board, all right. Then I believe you agree it's very specific.

To me, sexy miniatures are made with a target public in mind - or just the envy of the sculptor himself. It's quite obvious some of these miniatures aren't intended to everyone. Like the sexy part of Brother Vinni's website.

But that is for miniatures made so with the intention of being really sexy. You also have to take the scale into account.

For example, in 6 mm scale, the infantry models are so small it's impossible to tell the difference between a male and a female if you don't exagerate some proportions. It's also the same for weapons as well.

Thus, when someone is trying to make a Sister of Battle like range of models, you can have results like this;



Was the intention here to make sexualized boob armors? Maybe a part of this is true, but the other is also a question of being able to tell from a fair distance that those are indeed female warriors.

But the change in proportions can also be a question of artistic line, like the famous "Heroic Scale" from GW, where all weapons are ridiculously huge with hands bigger than their face or armor so thin you would never believe there is a man/woman inside. But they look cooler that way, even if it's not realistic. The same can be said for Privateer Press models - and some female parts are often exaggerated in that particular scale because...well, like the weapons and hands.

However, there are also miniatures that show females in a more realistic way, like Victoria miniatures. It's just not the same artistic line or...same target market. It just depends of your personnal tastes; if you like realist proportions or you'd rather go a more "fantasy" approach. It's especially true for fantasy or SF miniatures, when you don't need to follow History's reality.

I can't deny there is sometimes some sexism in the intentions of sculptors/miniature producers. And it's true sex always sells. But I don't think the world is all white and black in that matter and mostly, intentions are given to sculptors when they never had them.

When I saw the Sisterhood models I thought they were rather good, apart from the exagerrated boobs. They are dynamic and have good variety of poses, but rather spoiled IMO by the ballon boobs wodged on to the front of the figures. I thought they were 15mm.

Then I realised the pics are blow-ups of 6mm scale figures. Obviously in 6mm scale, even an exagerrated boob is still just a tiny pip on the chest. Without seeing them painted, from all angles, it's hard to say for sure but they probably paint up nicely and don't look so blatant.
.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Then I realised the pics are blow-ups of 6mm scale figures. Obviously in 6mm scale, even an exagerrated boob is still just a tiny pip on the chest. Without seeing them painted, from all angles, it's hard to say for sure but they probably paint up nicely and don't look so blatant.

See for yourself. It's not the same unit, but boobs are still here. If you manage to get close enough to see them.

By the way, these aren't mine. I took a picture from a 6 mm wargame forum.



The smaller the scale, the bigger the details. Otherwise, you just can't tell the difference.

Sure, you can Forge the Narrative saying it's a woman inside that closed exo-armour. But it's not the same thing.

I was going to say my eyesight isn't good enough to see the tiny big black boobs but I realised it might not sound quite the thing.

Yes, probably they would look better if done in a more angular fashion, like armour plates rather than blobs slapped on the front. But 6mm figures are so tiny, is are these mini Not Sisters a danger to the moral development of the young people?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I was going to say my eyesight isn't good enough to see the tiny big black boobs but I realised it might not sound quite the thing.

Yes, probably they would look better if done in a more angular fashion, like armour plates rather than blobs slapped on the front. But 6mm figures are so tiny, is are these mini Not Sisters a danger to the moral development of the young people?

Some people certainly believe it.

I can't help comparing the situation to how you'd deal with an all women armored tank division.

Are you going to put breasts on the tanks, or accept that plausible armor design won't feature that sort of thing?

Maybe not their moral development, but it's certainly detrimental to the visual development of young and old alike to try and see anything specific on those models!

I keep writing up a question as regards women being offended by naked miniatures but I keep forming it badly so I'll try to do it in simple sentences:

1) Is the gaming market (board, card, miniatures, etc.) as a whole increasing in size? My hunch is that it is.
2) Is miniature gaming increasing at a comparable rate? My belief is that it is not, though some of that is because I think board games are blowing up while miniatures are just increasing.
3) What portion of the increase is female in either category? I suspect that a good chunk of women are getting into more and more games, but very few into miniatures

And finally:

4) If there is a disparity between 1&2 or 3a&3b, why?

I don't think the answer to that last one, and I do believe there is a disparity, can be attributed to the fact that some models have large boobs. Many of the women I show models to seem drawn to that facet (I will readily concede my friends are not normal, otherwise they wouldn't be friends with me! ), and use it as others have described; when a model is of indeterminate gender facially they immediately look at the chest. For clarity, not all of them are gamers where that'd be "normal" either, so I think that much of it mirrors society as a whole. Is that idea that a model is naked or provocative enough to "scare" someone away?

Stated in another context, I can certainly understand why someone would not appreciate the depiction of their group as something other than human. For example, a rifle range target with a Star of David on it is naturally going to make anyone of the Jewish faith very, very uncomfortable if not outright terrified and rightfully so. Would that make said person never want to go near a gun/hunting/marksmanship club, or would it make them not want associate with that particular group of gun owners? Certainly if someone was only interested in a cursory fashion it would send them running for the hills, but what I'm less convinced of is that it would dampen actual enthusiasm for a topic unless that was the behavior of multiple different groups. At that point it's not so much the object as it is the people. Not having those targets wouldn't fix the fact that the people engaging in the hobby in the local area are terrible people; they would find some new manifestation of maladjusted nonsense to scare off others if they didn't have the object currently being highlighted.

Which touches on another topic; is the problem the models and their depictions of human nudity or the perception of those who enjoy them by the general public?

Sining wrote:
I was into gaming because my friends were into gaming. It was easy to get together when we were kids. My fiancee was into gaming as well as a kid but since none of her female friends were gamers, it was harder for her to have gaming as a hobby. Of course, this was decades ago but I don't think the paradigm has changed too much except everyone's a mobile gamer now but certain games, like FPS , wargaming etc still remain male dominated because it seems to appeal to males more

I know more women who are serious board gamers than men. Space Hulk was a hit with them. So was X-Wing. The transition to tabletop is pretty easy these days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 solkan wrote:


Are you going to put breasts on the tanks, or accept that plausible armor design won't feature that sort of thing?

Of course not, silly. You put a delicate jaw and high, narrow forehead on the tank. If you're Mantic, that is.

 solkan wrote:
I can't help comparing the situation to how you'd deal with an all women armored tank division.

Are you going to put breasts on the tanks, or accept that plausible armor design won't feature that sort of thing?

well you might have the odd tank commander poking her head up

Does it really matter guys? I mean they're plastic/metal miniatures. Who cares if they were clothing, power armour, or no garments whatsoever. As, long as the person using them likes that model for the tabletop hobby, I don't see the point in discussing this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:


Then there is no point criticising something if it is for naught. And since the people who do critics are human, it's obvious they can be tainted by feelings - like anger at seeing something totally not to their own tastes.

"Calm down" is always a logical responce to filter these subjective feelings, and going back to facts - or to your own senses, depends.

No, it is not a logical response. I could tell you to calm down and stop criticising my post, but that would not be logical, would it? You criticising my post won't stop me from making more like it either, but that doesn't mean I will tell you that your criticism is for naught. To me it may be, but it probably isn't to you.

'Calm down' is a condescending response in which you try to imply the opposition as arguing from emotion and yourself as the paragon of logic and reason. If someone is arguing in ALL CAPS!!!! then sure, but that has not happened. People have just expressed displeasure.

Also, 'anger at seeing something totally not to their own tastes.'? This is a wargaming forum, not the Ku Klux Klan. Outside of the occasional troll, people do not get angry just because we're not an echo chamber.

Why does it matter if a model is showing her hooters or if one id showing his donger. They are plastic/metal miniatures that represent mostly sci-fi and fantasy settings. They are fictional and do not matter at all.

 Abanshee wrote:
Does it really matter guys? I mean they're plastic/metal miniatures. Who cares if they were clothing, power armour, or no garments whatsoever. As, long as the person using them likes that model for the tabletop hobby, I don't see the point in discussing this.

Well, then why are you posting here? Obviously, a lot of people do care, see several pages of discussion.

 treslibras wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Does it really matter guys? I mean they're plastic/metal miniatures. Who cares if they were clothing, power armour, or no garments whatsoever. As, long as the person using them likes that model for the tabletop hobby, I don't see the point in discussing this.

Well, then why are you posting here? Obviously, a lot of people do care, see several pages of discussion.

Because, its a forum. A forum is made for interacting ya-know.

Anyway, why do you care if a model is made wearing less clothing and displaying more body.

 Abanshee wrote:

 treslibras wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Does it really matter guys? I mean they're plastic/metal miniatures. Who cares if they were clothing, power armour, or no garments whatsoever. As, long as the person using them likes that model for the tabletop hobby, I don't see the point in discussing this.

Well, then why are you posting here? Obviously, a lot of people do care, see several pages of discussion.

Because, its a forum. A forum is made for interacting ya-know.

Anyway, why do you care if a model is made wearing less clothing and displaying more body.

Read the thread and answer your own question. Or go to the News & Rumors forum and read the Prodos thread that started this discussion and then answer your own question. You aren't being clever, dude.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Sining wrote:
I was into gaming because my friends were into gaming. It was easy to get together when we were kids. My fiancee was into gaming as well as a kid but since none of her female friends were gamers, it was harder for her to have gaming as a hobby. Of course, this was decades ago but I don't think the paradigm has changed too much except everyone's a mobile gamer now but certain games, like FPS , wargaming etc still remain male dominated because it seems to appeal to males more

I know more women who are serious board gamers than men. Space Hulk was a hit with them. So was X-Wing. The transition to tabletop is pretty easy these days.

And I know more men who board game than women. It's all anecdotal in our cases but in general, over here at least, more men do board games than women at most of the LGS I've frequented.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

 treslibras wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:
Does it really matter guys? I mean they're plastic/metal miniatures. Who cares if they were clothing, power armour, or no garments whatsoever. As, long as the person using them likes that model for the tabletop hobby, I don't see the point in discussing this.

Well, then why are you posting here? Obviously, a lot of people do care, see several pages of discussion.

Because, its a forum. A forum is made for interacting ya-know.

Anyway, why do you care if a model is made wearing less clothing and displaying more body.

Read the thread and answer your own question. Or go to the News & Rumors forum and read the Prodos thread that started this discussion and then answer your own question. You aren't being clever, dude.

So, you guys are displeased about scantily clad models. Okay, getting upset over models that have revealing clothing is kinda weird. Their plastic boobs and butts. Plus their not real.

So's Hollywood but people still care about that! /rimshot

Ha-ha... Ha!

Okay, lame joke aside, the point is that people want more models they like and some want less of models they dislike. There's nothing wrong with someone saying they like or dislike Prodos' Space Crusade line and stating why they feel that way. In fact, according to Prodos themselves, voicing such things is what's resulting in the creation of the PG13 version in addition to the originals.

Nothing has been lost and more has been gained. I'd call it a win for the majority. Of course, this wont necessarily please someone that wants the original (and maybe even the PG13 version) not to exist. But there's value in the discourse itself because it makes us more aware of the views of people not ourselves and in the case of Space Crusade opens up the product to people that would otherwise not have been interested.

Personally, I'm in the why-not-both camp on the sexy vs not-sexy debate. But I understand there are people that feel things have been too sexy for too long! and want more sensible models.

 solkan wrote:
Are you going to put breasts on the tanks, or accept that plausible armor design won't feature that sort of thing?

In hindsight, Googling "Rhino with breasts" with safesearch: off was a mistake

 Vertrucio wrote:
The difference is that video games and even board games have been moving to diversify, and they have reaped the benefits of a larger market.

Meanwhile, miniature games are becoming more and more niche.

You bring up "hardcore feminists" but no one is really asking for the removal of all sexuality removed from gaming. But, many are just tired of seeing it pointlessly everywhere, and poorly done at that. Prodos' stuff wasn't just a particularly good example, but it was also just one in a long line of really one sided depictions.

Likewise, those "hardcore feminists" are a niche type of people of a larger very legitimate issue. One shouldn't go disparaging niches in a forum dedicated to a hobby that is very niche itself. I bet you that at some point you have turned your nose up at someone in this hobby that you considered just plain weird and not all together, but that very same person is used by other people to disparage our entire hobby. So it's best not to start the finger pointing because it accomplishes nothing.

Yeah... videogames aren't doing all that great. There's niche and indie stuff of all descriptions of course, but we have those in Miniatures as well.

NSFW
https://youtu.be/7wnTunPrQJo

And somewhat related to the first video, but mostly focused on focus groups.
ALSO NSFW
https://youtu.be/rXlcaV5FOmw

 Dentry wrote:

Nothing has been lost and more has been gained. I'd call it a win for the majority.

It will be if the sales for PG13 justify the extra cost of their creation, stocking, distributing ectr. if they sell better or worse than the originals it will be an interesting market research, I wonder if they will release such data.

 Abanshee wrote:

So, you guys are displeased about scantily clad models. Okay, getting upset over models that have revealing clothing is kinda weird. Their plastic boobs and butts. Plus their not real.

You have 29 posts on this forum. You've used three of them within a few hours of each other in this calm and mature thread - trolling it - clearly without having bothered to read any of it, let alone the thread that spawned it. You also spelled "they're" incorrectly. Twice. Welcome to ignore, kiddo.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

So, you guys are displeased about scantily clad models. Okay, getting upset over models that have revealing clothing is kinda weird. Their plastic boobs and butts. Plus their not real.

You have 29 posts on this forum. You've used three of them within a few hours of each other in this calm and mature thread - trolling it - clearly without having bothered to read any of it, let alone the thread that spawned it. You also spelled "they're" incorrectly. Twice. Welcome to ignore, kiddo.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. I asked you guys a legitimate question. As, to why you guys were so upset about tits on a model. You avoided the question by calling me a troll and telling me to read the origin [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. Stop avoiding the question and answer it.

I kinda like the cheesecake models, but they don't really fit the rest of my grimdark 40k forces. Mebbe I'll start a Kill Team that looks like one of those "guns n' girls" calendars.

 Abanshee wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

So, you guys are displeased about scantily clad models. Okay, getting upset over models that have revealing clothing is kinda weird. Their plastic boobs and butts. Plus their not real.

You have 29 posts on this forum. You've used three of them within a few hours of each other in this calm and mature thread - trolling it - clearly without having bothered to read any of it, let alone the thread that spawned it. You also spelled "they're" incorrectly. Twice. Welcome to ignore, kiddo.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. I asked you guys a legitimate question. As, to why you guys were so upset about tits on a model. You avoided the question by calling me a troll and telling me to read the origin [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. Stop avoiding the question and answer it.

I'd tell you that it's about political or social discourse and the way our ways of communicating with each other shapes society, but considering you're clearly not interested in constructive debate (c.f. the two ad hominem attacks you just did) that might be a waste. You're going to have to work awfully hard to prove your premise that representation in fictional settings is entirely irrelevant though, considering all fictional media is created by someone that exists in a specific social context.

 Abanshee wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

So, you guys are displeased about scantily clad models. Okay, getting upset over models that have revealing clothing is kinda weird. Their plastic boobs and butts. Plus their not real.

You have 29 posts on this forum. You've used three of them within a few hours of each other in this calm and mature thread - trolling it - clearly without having bothered to read any of it, let alone the thread that spawned it. You also spelled "they're" incorrectly. Twice. Welcome to ignore, kiddo.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. I asked you guys a legitimate question. As, to why you guys were so upset about tits on a model. You avoided the question by calling me a troll and telling me to read the origin [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]. Stop avoiding the question and answer it.

Many people consider things like cheesecake art in any form say for example Sisters of battle cater to certain tropes.

( dominatrix, Nuns, high heels, and corsets )


While these save for The Repentia and the penitent engine female pilot no visible amount of cleavage people may consider them little more than an extension of the Naughty Nun fantasy.


This is something that can be interpreted as a barrier to female players or painters/ modelers. A more plain armour set say for example Bianne of Tarth type armour, ( no visible 'Boob plate' ) would be better in any sort of female army or figures thus negating said barrier for any concerned .


More naked figures are seen as little more than teenage masturbatory items and make painters / modeller/ players who use them will see any female person as little more than an object because of this. In the words of probably the most visible feminist of recent times who spoke at the UN

" The more you think you aren't affected. The more you are actually affected"

Alright, this thread is dead i'm going back to priming my Dark Angels.

I was in a country where female Soldiers were and are on the front lines. During my time there.... let's just say that I saw a person in and out of uniform. And considering her job she was extremely nice.

The equipment functions very similar to a sports bra where there is no discernable differences when field gear is equipped.


Save from the voice but that's hardly going to appear on figure .


It does take time to reply you know... and I thought I had no patience

migooo wrote:
I was in a country where female Soldiers were and are on the front lines. During my time there.... let's just say that I saw a person in and out of uniform. And considering her job she was extremely nice.

Let's just say it functions very similar to a sports bra where there is no discernable differences when field gear is equipped.


Save from the voice but that's hardly going to appear on figure .


It does take time to reply you know... and I thought I had no patience

That last bit was kind of rude either way DA must get paint on the ASAP.

 Abanshee wrote:

migooo wrote:
I was in a country where female Soldiers were and are on the front lines. During my time there.... let's just say that I saw a person in and out of uniform. And considering her job she was extremely nice.

Let's just say it functions very similar to a sports bra where there is no discernable differences when field gear is equipped.


Save from the voice but that's hardly going to appear on figure .


It does take time to reply you know... and I thought I had no patience

That last bit was kind of rude either way DA must get paint on the ASAP.

Rude? Not my intention apologies

migooo wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

migooo wrote:
I was in a country where female Soldiers were and are on the front lines. During my time there.... let's just say that I saw a person in and out of uniform. And considering her job she was extremely nice.

Let's just say it functions very similar to a sports bra where there is no discernable differences when field gear is equipped.


Save from the voice but that's hardly going to appear on figure .


It does take time to reply you know... and I thought I had no patience

That last bit was kind of rude either way DA must get paint on the ASAP.

Rude? Not my intention apologies

I'm sorry for assuming it was that way.

What is all this about? Some female miniatures?
Really people, if you do not like them then do not use them. Simple.