Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Eight for 40 is more metal pricing to be honest. That's 5 quid a figure not even taking into account the other things in the starter. I feel like the Brexit excuses is pretty poor.

The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs. I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?

Anyhoo. Today has seen another 4 decks of cards and three more buildings unlocked and added to the higher pledges for free

 endtransmission wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Eight for 40 is more metal pricing to be honest. That's 5 quid a figure not even taking into account the other things in the starter. I feel like the Brexit excuses is pretty poor.

The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs. I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?

Honestly most KS miniature wargames end up with only small fan-bases and die in just a year or two after release so why wouldn't backers be basing their pledge value on the miniatures since they can at least be used in other games if the one being offered doesn't survive? For clarification, I am talking about miniature wargames here, not board games with miniatures (which tend to do rather well on KS and also attract a different audience).

 endtransmission wrote:


The brexit comment was mainly from the commenters in the show, not 4ground. The London stock exchange is showing a rise of over 20% on the price of tin in the last year alone. All they said was that after lots of investigations, they had been strongly advised against going down the metal route du to the rising costs.

Crazy. Looking at the London Metal Exchange I can see that volatility in Tin but all the US based charts show it pretty stable. Would assume that comes from the fluctuating pound.

I am also unsure why people are just splitting the £40 by the 8 figures and ignoring the 120 page rule book, dice, cards, tokens etc etc that come with it as well as the carry case/book? Granted, the figures are still going to be more than 50p each, but if they come out at the same quality as the better Conan figures, it seems like a fair deal for everything that a player needs to get started?

Not really sure. I know that the other stuff is there. Looking at the $100 level I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth but I did back Human Interface at $130 even though I'm more likely to play Fabled Realms then I am HI. But I did buy HI soly for the minis to be used in RPGs. Maybe's it's because Fabled Realm's starters are going to be roughly the same price at retail so I don't feel like they're giving me a deal? Human brains are strange things.

Because even with the inclusion of the book, the cards and the dice I don't think it's worth what they are charging, and the primary reason is the PVC miniatures. To be honest, that price point is expensive, but within what I'm willing to pay for the game, as long as the miniatures come in a material that I know is going to provide a quality sculpt, such as resin, metal or HIPS (the extra £12 for resin is what ultimately caused me to drop my pledge). PVC has a track record of looking below average and being difficult to work with.

Plus if you look at almost any boardgame release that is throwing 30 or so miniatures into a £40 or £50 pledge, then the extra material you get with the game would usually include a decent sized rulebook as well as other game components like cards, game tiles or boards, custom dice, player mats and a decent selection of tokens, chits and markers. There's generally enough 'other' material aside from the miniatures that discounting it from both products is, at least in my mind, fair when comparing value for money.

Like it or not, 4Grounds is charging premium prices for budget material and I'm not prepared to give them my money for that. I'm glad the kickstarter is doing okay though. Maybe once the game comes out I'll be able to find a starter kit at retail somewhere at a more reasonable price, as long as the sculpts don't turn out looking like gak that is. That comparison pic earlier in the thread doesn't look too promising though.

A slew of updates, here we go!

Update #14

Jul 4 2017
Resin upgrades, timed unlocks, Dalrdorr terrain

Hi All,

We had a great live stream last night, it went really well and it was great to talk to all of you that attended. We doing another live stream tomorrow and the Kickstarter page should be updated soon.

The answers to some of the questions;
£400 pledge and resin upgrades; you can upgrade all miniatures in your pledge to resin for £48, this includes all additional miniatures from the Kickstarter including the additional 10 reinforcements.
Will we be continuing to support the resin range after Kickstarter? Yes we will, in fact some releases due to size may be only released in resin (High Dragons etc.).
Will there be large beasts eventually including Dragons? I spoiled this one above, but yes and eventually Manticores, Griffons, Chimera etc.
Can you play the game co-op? Some of the narrative scenarios will be co-op scenarios.
Will we be doing a campaign supplement? Yes and the campaign supplement will be exchangeable for A4 rulebooks in those pledges.
Can I exchange my £150 worth of terrain in The Battle Of Rustag, The 3rd Incursion and The Schoalrs Of Nonsuch University for Daldorr terrain? Yes we will do a pack that you pick from on your pledge manager as either Daldorr or Mordanburg.
Can I pick the Deep Cut Studio mat? Once again you will be able to pick, between 3 the grass, the snow and the barren ones.
Do you get Adam in the World of Fabled Realms add-on? One free Adam with every set, but be aware he is 1/72nd scale.
Are you doing any more timed unlocks and how do they work? Timed unlocks are done to keep adding interesting items during the kickstarter, we will be releasing items every few days that are added into different pledge levels. These items will be added to any backers pledges, not just those that pledge before that date.
Here is some more concept work so its not just a wall of text again.

Update #15
Jul 4 2017

Mordanburg State Guard warriors on the horizon
Hi All,

Here are some very early work in progress images of the additional Mordanburg State Guard miniatures in the starter set. This is Pytor, Sara and Steppan. These models are all part of your starter set and are also available as henchmen reinforcements.
We got very excited and wanted to share these with you as soon as possible.

Update #16
Jul 4 2017

Tokens in the Fabled Realms

Next update for box contents.

The tokens are going to be made from card stock. This is so we can print some of the amazing artwork we have onto the card and make use of printing them double sided to get the most use out of the tokens.
Wednesday we will do an update to show you how to create an ability card deck.

Update #17
Jul 4 2017

Wow, 3 stretch goals!

Well I went out to the hospital and came back and we had unlocked 3 stretch goals!
We have unlocked 4 card decks, these are:

Wave Of Fear

Dark magic like Wave Of Fear, causes damage to an opponents morale. You can also use spells like Cloak Of Darkness to make it less likely your opponent will hit you.


Mind Shard

Spirit magic allows you to attack your opponents mind with Mind Shard or block their abilities with Spiritual Shield. When combined Dark and Spirit magic allow you to cast terrible spells like Strip Soul.


Numerous Foes

Florikson is a fighting style devoted to fighting multiple opponents as such it has ability cards like Numerous Foes that generate combat dice based on the number of enemies they face and Redirection that allows them to transfer combat dice into defence.


Ferocity

Vargan is a fighting style based on the training of the fighting pits of Mordanburg. One of its major tenets is that you should always put on a good show, this is shown best with cards like Ferocity which make you strike last but your attack is boosted when you hit back. Other abilities like Hateful Blows cause you to gain attacks if you have taken wounds already, a perfect combination with Ferocity.

Finally we have the buildings of Broggenbridge;


These buildings are part of the settled region of Daldorr. Built into the ruins they are almost fort like in their construction allowing no enemies to enter without a fight. The keying on the walls allow them to be integrated into the current range of Daldorr ruins. This is an add-on that can be added to pledges, but comes as part of The 3rd Incursion pledge and The Scholars Of Nonsuch Univesity pledge levels.

We have some more surprises for you tomorrow, with Sell Sword work in progress miniatures and another timed unlock.

This morning another 2 prints have been unlocked and added to all the goals.

In addition to that, they have also added their next timed unlock. Some of the pledge levels are now getting a guard tower that goes with the ruins, added for free. It is also being added as a £40 extra for anyone else who wants one

Time for another big update, even though some of you have given up on it, I'm still looking forward to this coming through

Since we last peered through the window at this world, things have moved on quite a bit, with lots of extra value being added to the higher level pledges

- There will be a Campaign supplement, which is the same size as the A4 rulebook. It can be added on, or at the higher levels, one of the main rulebooks can be swapped out for this new one.

- The Mordanburg Stage Guard Forever Vigilant set (two KS exclusive guards, their cards and a scenario) have been unlocked and added to all pledges above £200, or as an add-on. The 400/800 levels get two sets of these figures


- The Eightfold path have two Warders of the Path unlocked and added to some levels, or as an add-on.


- Lots more skills and spells have been added in... discounted decks will be added towards the end, for the lower levels that want them all.
- More prints have been added to levels
- Two wayshrines have been added to a lot of the levels, or as an add-on for anyone that wants more. These include a new scenario as well


- A mill has been added to the higher levels, or as an add-on


- The Fellendorf Militia pdf faction has been added to all levels over £200, along with 3 sprues of Gripping Beast Hirdmen and Dark Age Warriors, giving you 8 heroes and 10 henchmen. this warband seems interesting. You can only buy heroes for this warband. For each hero that joins the battle, you roll a D3... the total of these rolls tells you how many henchmen your warband currently has available. You can bring them all to the fight and seriously outnumber/overpower the enemy, but if you do you get nothing between games as you took all of your henchmen away from the farming/mining activities that would pay you... so this is a balancing act.


- the Beast of Balvenburg has been unlocked and added to some pledges, or as an add-on


- Hasty defences have been added to a lot of the levels. This is a set of extra bits to build barricades, block doors/windows on your buildings or link wooden buildings to the ruins


- The map has also been unlocked, but not added to the pledge images yet.

The overview of the £400 level is currently :


This is currently worth (at KS prices) over £700 and will be getting at least 4 more daily unlocks, even if no extra goals are unlocked (which is unlikely).

They have also been talking about an RPG that uses the figures and some of the core rules with enhanced character/unit cards that may or may not be coming during the campaign.

Next goal is Sell Sword crossbows


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Today's unlock is another piece of terrain. This time it is a whiccan hut

Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.

Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.

While I'm not buying into the KS, I'm more excited about seeing the terrain being released - and hope that leads to even more. Their Fantasy range is beautiful but has been quite limited...very happy to see some unique stuff. Love the windmill, loooove the Beckenbridge? Whatever stuff.

zreef wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.

Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.

Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.

They just aren't competitively priced. 8 pvc models for 40 pounds is just super poor value. Who cares about signed art prints? Commemorative coins? Mugs? Shirts? Rules add ins that feel like they should have been there from the beginning?

Why on Earth are they paying the tooling and shipping (and waiting) time from China for a game that has 8-10 models per side? PVC is wrong for this game on every level. A metal casting shop could deliver these in a fraction of the time it will take to get them from China. Like, they could be shipping in four months. None of their choices make any sense.

This campaign by far has been the biggest KS disappointment of the year. I was very excited. I won't even get it at retail with PVC figures.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

zreef wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.

Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.

Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.

I disagree. Not about them raising less money than expected, but about what impact it will have. Though they did reduce their stretch goals to more realistic targets, I doubt it will have much affect on their capability to realise the project in the time scale they have set. Most of the stretch goals are niff-naff stuff (prints and cards for the game) that won't take much effort to produce. The cards in particular are a core part of the game - they are getting done up whether the stretch goals are reached or not, so really they aren't actually stretch goals, more like bait.

The heart of their stretch goals and timed unlocks are the terrain. 4ground does this very well and, again, I'm inclined to believe that most of it has been designed and costed that it was going to be released regardless of the kickstarter. The logistics of sending out all that product may bite them if they are unprepared but I have no doubts that they can create it on time and budget.

Apart from the cards (that I truely believe are a ridiculous set of stretch goals), there has been little additional content that is game play related. Unless the kickstarter was a complete bust, the four initial factions were always going to be released, so we can discount them. At the moment they are sitting on a single extra unit for each of the factions unlocked. That is not exactly the most taxing of extras for any company to get their heads around.

While the more expensive pledges are finally becoming value for money (provided you want all the terrain), one of the problems they still haven't managed to address is that the game itself is still not popular. Right now they're at £80k which is good, but only 350 backers, that's not good. That means they have a low'ish number of backers pledging a decent amount each, but that seems to be only thanks to the added value of the £400 pledge coming from 4ground's terrain.

Compare to other games. "The Drowned Earth" got £45k from 500 backers, but that was almost entirely game related material from what is effectively a one man band operation. "Maelstrom's Edge" got $70k from 800 backers, so a lot more popular at concept than Fabled Realms appears right now, but aside from Dakka and a small presence at Salute I've neither seen nor heard of the game anywhere else, so having an even smaller base should be worrying. And again, that success came from the value of the game. Guildball stands as an example that started with strong support and got better. Over £90k from nearly 900 backers - all based upon the strength of the game, not expensive terrain add-ons. That's the level of support that will assure you of a game that survives past its first year.

There's a good chance that on general release this game will find its home and be successful, but in the last few days of the campaign what they really need to have a greater chance of the game growing are more people pledging at the lower levels. Focus on the game, not the terrain.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

zreef wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Completely changing around all their stretch goals is a huge red flag to me.

Why exactly? Its not like 90% of miniature kick starters have nothing to do with paying for tooling costs, but instead getting an up front cash injection and marketing push --- so re arranging stretch goals is likely to have 0 impact on delivery.

Because they are obviously raising way less money than they thought they would, and promising a lot more than they planned to in order to do it. I think that is very likely to impact delivery.

I highly doubt it, most mark ups from manufactures are above the 50% level. They can easily take a 50% off hit on the stuff they make in house if not more. The vast majority of what is on offer here $ wise are what they make or can make in house. Moreover they know exactly what their costs are on those products. I think the risk here is extremely overblown. You might not like what they have to offer. I personally am not sold on the mechanics of the game so I am not backing myself. But worrying about "red flags" of the stretch goal readjustment is just in my opinion super silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and the post above mine just said what I said 10000x better

Eh, suit yourself. I think it's super silly not to be worried, as I've seen plenty of projects that promise more and more as they desperately try to bring in the money they need to realize their project. They goal listed on kickstarter may not be enough for them to deliver the project if they were expecting to raise a lot more.

So they finally convinced me to pull my pledge. It's a shame.

When they said they'd do a card bundle I expected to pay a tenner. Fifteen at a push. £20 would have been a lot to ask but I could see it from a business point of view.

£40? And it doesn't even have ALL the cards in it? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

SRP of 66.5 pounds is roughly $88 usd for a pack of cards. Are these guys high or just never used money before?

I definitely think that the cards are a bit overpriced but for Guildball's season 3 plot cards and tokens it is $15 and that is only 12 plots cards and 4 tokens. So maybe it is not that much out of line or can guildball charge that because they are the new hotness?

It's a diminishing returns thing.
For example, a game that charges £8 a model where you need fifty or so to make an army isn't viable in large numbers - the outlay is too much. So the large scale army needs to cut costs down to £3-£4 a model to get the player base.

A game which has ten or so models a side can charge £8 a model as the overall outlay is less.

It seems unfair that the game which requires more should have to sell its product for less, but the customer only sees two comparable games, one of which costs a fraction of the other, so return on investment for the more expensive game is diminished the more expensive the individual models are.
It's why FFG can get away with charging £12 for a basic X-Wing model that costs them pennies to produce.

Steamforged charges roughly £10 for both the plots deck and the players deck each. These are all you need to purchase each season to keep your game current. One contains 12 cards, the other over 100. One contains just shy of ten times the number of cards as the other yet they cost a similar amount. The reason being that both have to be priced to meet apparent value for the customer.

4Ground have not done this, especially considering that they are trying to convince gamers to invest in their brand new, untested, unfinished game system. As I said above, £20 for the lot would have been a push but understandable. £40 goes above what I accept to pay in return for the product - especially as it doesn't even include all the cards.

(lots of editing to clarify my point)

There have been a ton of updates that we haven't had listed here, but this is the latest one - Sellsword Goblins

Pretty cool - like the less 'Gremlins' type Goblins, these look like they could at least be half-competent and not be comically killed by someone with a stick or a microwave.

This KS is still going on?!?

EDIT: Never mind - this was just an update!

Have there been any updates of note on this one?

Any previews of the 'production' miniatures yet?

Reviews of rules/minis/etc.?

Thanks!

There was just an entire weekend of new gameplay content on BoW (Shill alert! Shill alert!) which ended with an announcement that the pledge manager was being re-opened for a short time to allow for more late-backers. Previously when they were allowing late-backers I had emailed them asking if the late pledges included the stretch goals from the campaign. They replied no, late-pledgers would not get the stretch goals. Kind of made my decision for me, since I was only after the models and extras as the game seems horribly dull to me.

My instincts tell me that the re-opening of the pledge manager is a bit of a red flag....not sure why but it feels like something's wrong. This past weekend it's like they tried to re-start the hype and get more folks to spend money for a project that is still far from release. The KS project limped out of the gates and caused them to shift tact and start offering more stretch goal stuff. I know they are a legit company that's been around a while, but they've never used KS nor produced miniatures or a game before this project.

Ah, thanks for that!

Usually 'late backers' will get stretch goals, but maybe pay a bit more for the pledge level?

If that's not the case here, I think I'll...'join' you in not jumping in here either.

Shame, as I'd jump in with stretch goals probably, even though I'm not a resin fan. I think the aesthetic of this game is excellent (admittedly not sold on the game mechanics myself).

BigDaddio wrote:
There was just an entire weekend of new gameplay content on BoW (Shill alert! Shill alert!) which ended with an announcement that the pledge manager was being re-opened for a short time to allow for more late-backers. Previously when they were allowing late-backers I had emailed them asking if the late pledges included the stretch goals from the campaign. They replied no, late-pledgers would not get the stretch goals. Kind of made my decision for me, since I was only after the models and extras as the game seems horribly dull to me.

My instincts tell me that the re-opening of the pledge manager is a bit of a red flag....not sure why but it feels like something's wrong. This past weekend it's like they tried to re-start the hype and get more folks to spend money for a project that is still far from release. The KS project limped out of the gates and caused them to shift tact and start offering more stretch goal stuff. I know they are a legit company that's been around a while, but they've never used KS nor produced miniatures or a game before this project.

If they're going ahead with a massive advertising push (which the thing on BoW was, notwithstanding that some of it was pretty entertaining) it makes sense to open up the pledge manager - there is no point in going through all of that effort to plug the game and then potential customers having to wait 3 months to be able to spend any money. So I think that by itself can't be used as an indication that they are going through rocky waters.

Yes this game is looking like it's not cheap, but that shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone who has bought their terrain over the years (as lovely as it is).

I think this whole thing won't end up being a growth engine for them though - they'll pretty much stay where they are...

I think you're right - although this game will have given publicity to the building ranges, it probably would have cost a fair bit to design and make as well.

I've got the basic KS on order so am willing to give it a go - been after something like Mordheim for a while, and I quite like the concept of the universe with the different races.

Some quite nice and characterful sculpts as well (hopefully the casting medium for the production minis will be up to the job!)

Oh don't get me wrong - I like what I see (so far), it was just that the cost was still too high.

Especially with the 'unknown' of how the production material minis will turn out.

*If* everything turns out great, I can see eventually getting into it...

I will make sure I feed back how the miniatures and game turn out!

Will be playing with a bunch of people that know Mordheim very well so will hopefully find out how up to scratch the game and miniatures are quite quickly.

Am kind of hoping it's not too amazing as just thinking how much a tables-worth of the 4Ground terrain will cost..