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Different slot for ASM. that's all.

Battle update:

My anti-horde leaning list squeaked past an Ork list that WAS not proper horde.

Captain on bike, powerfist, infernus pistol (I know about T hammer, but he's modeled with fist right now)

Priest on bike, infernus pistol (he needed a CC weapon)

Lemartes

5 x incessors (literally did nothing)

5 x tac combi-flamer, heavy flamer, TL HF razorback

5 x tac combi-plas, plasma gun, TL plasma lascannon razorback (I'm changing this to combi-melta, grav cannon I think)

10 X DC, 2 X power fist (need to be hammers) 2 X power sword

3 X inceptors (they actually did really well)

3 X attack bikes w/ MM

Primaris lieutenant

Castellan whirlwind

Castellan whirlwind

Vengeance whirlwind

VS

Gorkanaut (horrifying)

Battlewagon w/all guns and deffrolla

Big Mek, War boss, 3 X mega nobz, standard dude all in battlewagon

4 X grot tanks

6 X bikerz

3 large squads of grots

3 X Lobbaz

Dakkajet

I won on points, but I could not stop the Gorkanaut at all and only killed the empty battlewagon very late.

Whirlwinds were very good. Incessors were bad this game, because they could only shoot the battlewagon and Gorkanaut from their location. Twin heavy flamer very good. Plasma not so impressive. Inceptors were fantastic deepstriking into cover.

I have been running two MSU units of 5 ASM with 2x Flamer and a Melta Bomb and I've been enjoying them. They are decent as a skirmish unit, especially in Maelstrom - they provide lots of mobility, can cap objectives and are moderately resilient. Plus 'Fly' gives you all sorts of possibilities. Charging and enforcing fall back on shooty units or falling back themselves and flaming stuff. Nothing spectacular but in a fluffy JP BA list I think they have a place.

Sanguinary Guard, however, have been nothing but a disappointment to me so far. They seem to have a very focused purpose and that is killing multi-wound infantry with low to med Toughness. They struggle against anything more resilient (like vehicles) or with high invuln. saves. Their special rule also means it's suboptimal to run them as an independent unit since you want to keep them close to your Warlord. IMHO their role overlaps a bit with the Death Company and after a couple of games, I am starting to think that DC is better for the job and THSS Termies would be better as a heavy hitting, independent squad.

Oh and also, what does everyone think about running two Librarians? I have been thinking about running BA Libby with Sang. discipline and a JP Libby in an "Astartes" detachment with the Librarius discipline. All three powers there seem very tasty for a CC oriented list.

 soomemafia wrote:
Since Vanguard Veterans are only two points costier than Assault Marines, but come with an extra A, Ld and funnier toys, do you still think that Assault Marines will be useful?
Right now the only reason I wouldn't upgrade them seems to be if I wanted a Fast Attacks unit for FOC reasons. Maybe cheap flamer..?

Struggling to see the point of Assault squads right now. Once they had an advantage in that the FA slot was relatively uncontested but now that Vanguard detachment exists that is a moot point.

Playing BA without a Vanguard detachment is simply nerfing yourself...

Why pay troop tax?

2 Vanguards give 2 CP
4 HQ
12 Elites (You know VV, DC, Dreads, San Guard, etc.)
and enough of whatever else you want to take to round out your list/points.

Because troop tax gives you command points and scouts can sneak up the field freeing your elites to deep strike. Alternatively for non pureist scion's can give some nice shooty support for the DC

With the amount of rerolls already available, I don't think 1 CP will make that much of a difference. Mixing means the greater need for rerolls.

I just see ZERO reasons to take Tac Squads as BA, there is nothing they do that another BA choice can't do better.

Yup, can't see why you'd take troops for BA.

Scout snipers might work as troops if you feel you want to try to snipe away a character.

So I got tabled tonight vs Grey Knights. Essentially I brought Brother Corbulo [5 PL, 94pts]

Lemartes [7 PL, 129pts]

+ Troops [6 PL, 83pts] +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 83pts]
. Scout x4
. Scout Sergeant [15pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Sniper rifle [4pts]

+ Elites [66 PL, 822pts] +

Death Company [18 PL, 161pts]
. Death Company Marine [37pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Thunder hammer [20pts]
. Death Company Marine [22pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Power axe [5pts]
. Death Company Marine [17pts]:x5

Death Company [18 PL, 160pts]
. Death Company Marine [37pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Thunder hammer [20pts]
. Death Company Marine [21pts]: Bolt pistol and chainsword, Power sword [4pts]
. Death Company Marine x5

Death Company [9 PL, 85pts]
. Death Company Marine [17pts]:x5

Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 227pts]: Blood talons [65pts], Heavy flamer [17pts], Meltagun [17pts], Smoke launchers

Furioso Dreadnought [10 PL, 189pts]: Furioso fist (pair) [50pts], Heavy flamer [17pts], Smoke launchers

+ Heavy Support [7 PL, 165pts] +

Devastator Squad [7 PL, 165pts]
. Space Marine [38pts]: Boltgun, Missile launcher [25pts] x4

. Space Marine Sergeant [13pts]: Boltgun

+ Flyer [30 PL, 606pts] +

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 303pts]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher [42pts], Twin assault cannon [35pts], Twin multi-melta [54pts]

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 303pts]: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher [42pts], Twin assault cannon [35pts], Twin multi-melta [54pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [5 PL, 100pts] +

Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin assault cannon [35pts]

++ Total: [126 PL, 1999pts] ++

Grey Knights player brought -

Draigo

4x squads of Purgation
2x Stormraven MM, HB, AC, SS

5x LC Razorbacks

I got first turn - advanced with Death Company and Dreds attached to Stormravens. Moved up Razorback - Shooting phase I took out one of his Stormravens, end of turn.

1st Turn Grey Knights - he has a parking lot of razorbacks with Draigo in the middle - everything is twin linked. He moves the ramaining Stormraven towards one of mine. He drops in 2x Purgation squads 9" away to take out my scouts and devastators.

Psychic phase - Draigo casts Purge Soul on my SR then Razorbacks, SR (x6 psykers) casts Rites of Banishment on my Lemartes occupied Stormraven and its down to 5 wounds. Also lost 1x Scout and 1x Devastator down to the deep strike Purgation squads casting Rites of Banishment. In Total, a single Psychic phase caused 11 mortal wounds!

Shooting phase - the LC razorbacks easily finish off the Stormraven with Lemartes and the Death Company Dread +Deathcompany falling to the ground. No explosion, everyone lives on disembark!

Second SR with the Furioso and Corbs quickly whittled down to 5 wounds after Grey knights remaining twin linked LC Razorbacks and their remaining SR lay into it.

1x Purgation Squad kills all but two Devastators, other Purgation squad kills 2 scouts in cover with cloaks.

Assault - 1 LC Razorback charges Lemartes and the 8 Death Company Marines - takes one wound to overwatch!

Draigo leaps over a LC Razorback and attacks the Death Company Dreadnought. Hits 4 times with his D3 Mortal wound AP-4 weapon - ONE SHOTS the DREAD! It EXPLODES killing all the death company except for 2 and Lemartes down to 1 wound.

Purgation squad that annhilated the devastators in cover charges the Razorback and make the charge,

Lemartes and the two remaining death company do 2 wounds on the 8 wound LC Razorback.

The Purgation squad slices 5 wounds off the razorback.

The devastators fail morale and lose both models.

He doesn't bother to assault the 4 man scout squad (1 died to Purge Soul)

At this point I call mercy as I have just one SR left with 5 wounds and its loadout as well as 1 AC Razor with 5 minimal death company cowering inside.

Lessons learned?

Build a parking lot with Gabriel Seth or Dante of cheap Razorbacks for rerolling big hit. long ranged weapons on cheap ass platforms.

Grey Knights - all of their units will be mortally wounding yours with Rites of Banishment if you are 12" away from any of his units. The chance of perils doesn't scare 10 wound psyker Razorbacks!

Don't forget the psychic focus rule. He can cast purge soul *once* per turn.

It was the lesser smite ability Rites of Banishment, not Purge Soul for the rest of the casters.

This match up was really hard for me to offer competition as I had built a Death Company assault list and ran up against 5 twin linked LC Psyker Razorbacks that not only hit with the LC, but also mortally wounded as well. If I didn't drive up in his face for a second turn charge I'd still eat LC and SR fire. If I stayed back I would have avoided all that psyker damage though so I guess hanging back for a turn out of casting range would have been more prudent.

So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Now I've been of the mind that these indexes are just a way to get our stuff on the table and shouldn't be taken too seriously but I'm not seeing too much to crow about so far other than the opportunity to just use stuff. It seems to be that we're red marines with slightly different characters as far as I can tell.

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

DC then our VV are best melee units in the AA.

Yours might be bad, mine have lost twice, in ten matches...

What do you mean by saying "Our" VV squad? These are not anything different than the Space marine VV from my index.

I shelved my red marines because my Razorback spam was utter garbage since 6th edition - now they can be fielded again but like Vanguard Veterans - they are just Space marine Razorbacks so there isn't much flavor.

I think a gem I haven't seen anyone mention yet is using Gabriel Seth as his aura buff 6" rerolls are only 135pts vs Dante's same buff at 215.

So thinking more about the 1st and 10th list I made a while back and mentioned a few days ago... still really haven't bothered looking up points yet but for equipment, here's what I've been planning based off of what I got out of a recent trade:

-- Termies, to teleport forward and deal damage, contest objectives, the like.
5x Assault Terminators, 2 claws, 2 thss, sarge w/thss
5x Assault Terminators, 2 claws, 2 thss, sarge w/thss
5x Tactical Terminators, 2 powerfists, 2 chainfists (one has cyclone or asscan, thinking asscan really due to points), sarge w/powersword

-- Scouts, mostly to sit back and snipe, though the boltguns one will potentially sit on an objective.
5 scouts w/cloaks, sniper rifles
5 scouts w/cloaks, 4 sniper rifles, ML
5 scouts w/or w/o cloaks, 4 boltguns, BP/CCW
* (I want these to be sniper rifles, but I don't have enough SRs at the moment; thinking I might delay assembling this third squad to get more, but boltgun ones still aren't entirely useless at least )

-- Captain and Ancient intended to support the termies. The ancient is especially powerful with the assault termies, and the captain more useful with the tacticals.
Terminator Captain w/SB and SS or SS and combiweapon
Terminator Ancient w/Claw

It's probably not overly strong, but I'm liking the feel of it at any rate. Sadly there's nothing BA-unique in here other than the terminator ancient, but that's just because of the index being kinda generic for almost all space marines.

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

Cheers @Crimson Devil that's positive at least.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

You definitely pay for movement in this game.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

The cost actually lines up fairly well against other CC dreads (though the helbrute has more attacks), Personally I'm not sold on dreads as a heavy weapon platform- they're just ridiculously expensive for that role, particularly with single shot weapons like multi-meltas.

Voss wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

The cost actually lines up fairly well against other CC dreads (though the helbrute has more attacks), Personally I'm not sold on dreads as a heavy weapon platform- they're just ridiculously expensive for that role, particularly with single shot weapons like multi-meltas.

Do you realize a Furioso with 2x fists heavy flamer, meltagun 195pts. Where as a Dreadnought with Twin Lascannon, heavy flamer, single DCCW is 177. 20pts less and I put a Twinlascannon on it. The dreadnought has 2 level movement and does not reroll to hit in combat, but he has the exact same close combat profile otherwise, despite having one arm wit a twin lascannon, which anyone will take over a meltagun any day of the week.

IMO opinion their is no challenge here, I'll pay 20 less points for having a lascannon and giving up 2 movement and rerolls to hit (which I get very often anyways from all the various support characters.
Furioso dreadnoughts need to have venerable upgrades for the points they pay (a venerable dradnought is 20 points more then a standard dread, and they get 2+ WS/BS and 6 FNP.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

kryczek wrote:
So after a week or 2 we have 5 pages and pretty much everyone else is into double figures. I take it we can possibly suggest that our BA are still just as bad as they were?

Where is the BA flavour/distinction? And would you use it ie DC/SG/Baals/Furiosos etc? Or are SM equivalents just better?

We are better. I'm at 50% with 8 games in. That is far superior to my record in 7th which was closer to 25% or less.

I always use Death Company, Baal, and Furioso w/ fists! The Baal is the only one I feel got weaker. The Furioso lives longer and contributes to the game! And IMO the DC with Chaplain and Librarian support are just as dangerous as before.

I just don't see the furioso being worth it unless your taking frag cannon, the furioso fists are barely better then standard dreadnought attacks, and it costs an arm and a leg more. Basically you get +2" movement and the option to reroll hits if you take 2 fists. But the base cost is 52pts more and you loss the options for heavy weapons (other then frag cannon). It's just not worth it! If you want a CC dreadnought, just take a standard dread with a close range weapon like a heavy flamer or mulitmelta and call it more successful.

My experience has been different. And I know my opponents don't treat him as an easy kill point. He's seen as a threat.

I'm not one to sacrifice flavor for efficiency. If I was, I'd play a different game. That;s why I use DC, Baal, & Furiosos. Those are Blood Angels to me. Vanguard, Predator Destructor, and Lascannon Dreads aren't.


BTW he is 206 points.

For the list above, I'm pondering if I should make my scout squads larger for survivability purposes, or spread them out over multiple small units as I currently am. Hrm.

Not all BA fall to the black rage. Vanguard are super BA compatible. We're just used to not using them.

I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.

I've got three painted up, and two more are going to be started soon, both with Storm Shields. I'm likely going to plug in at least one Meltagun to the squad, possibly two, and if I go with one I'll put a power weapon on the 5th one and let them be semi-tanky 3+/3++ character protection and delivery system.

Vanguard Veterans are also excellent as well in my opinion, I just like the Company Veterans for the added wound intercept ability. It costs you a mortal wound, sadly, and they're only 1 wound a piece, but if you have a Priest or Novitiate nearby you can try to bring one or more back over each turn.

My assault elements are going to be my Death Company + Lemartes (Likely 10 man w/ jump packs), a melee focused Captain with a 4 man squad of Sanguinary Guard and a Sanguinary Guard Ancient (with a powerfist), and a 5 man Command Squad with a Librarian, Company Champion, and Sanguinary Novitiate. All with Jump Packs.

The Librarian will throw Shield of Sanguinius on either the Death Company or Sanguinary Guard, and Unleash Rage on whichever one will benefit more from +1 attack in a given round.

I may not be able to deal with Horde armies supremely well with melee, but I imagine I'll be able to focus down one element of the enemy fairly well with a massed assault.

Good info in the thread here. Hoping for more good info soon.

Also, I'll say that blood angels tactical squads do have a use. Horde clearing. With the ability to take a Heavy Flamer and a Combilfamer with 5 marines in a rhino (least expensive option) or Razorback with a twin heavy flamer or, my personal preference, a twin assault cannon, you can put a potential high load of wounds onto a squad with a relatively low point investment. This is what I plan on doing with any tactical squads I have, personally speaking.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Can't you use a heavy flamer, flamer, and combiflamer? The Heavy Flamer is listed under "Heavy Weapon" after all. Basically turns your tacs in to harder to kill battle sister squads for horde clearing. Don't forget the help of the rest of the squad's boltguns too, btw. They're still good against one-wound models.

 Melissia wrote:
Can't you use a heavy flamer, flamer, and combiflamer? The Heavy Flamer is listed under "Heavy Weapon" after all. Basically turns your tacs in to harder to kill battle sister squads for horde clearing. Don't forget the help of the rest of the squad's boltguns too, btw. They're still good against one-wound models.

Agreed completely, and yes you can have all three in a 10 man tactical squad. If you're running a demi-squad (5x models) or anything fewer than 10 models then you choose either a heavy or special weapon and the sergeant of course gets the combi-flamer. I would always opt to take the heavy flamer first as it does get -1 to hit for being heavy but hits automatically, and gets the nice +1 strength vs. a flamer, in addition to the -1 AP to hit. The only thing you don't get is the ability to fire a Heavy Flamer if you advance, like you can with a standard assault weapon flamer, since the heavy flamer isn't an assault weapon any longer. I run my tacticals in a vehicle though, so I can give up the extra shooting on the advancement move for the added weapon strength and -1 to enemy armor.

I only lament that flamer weapons no longer ignore cover like they use to, but I do understand the logic behind things with the new AP system and cover.

I fully intend on my current project tactical squad to probably be triple flame weapons in the squad and maybe even splurging for meltabombs on the sergeant....apparently you can no longer put meltabombs on either the tactical or scout squad sergeants. Well, at least Krak grenades are somewhat useful. C'est la vie.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Yeh. Honestly if you have the spare points, there's no reason not to give your tac sarges combiflamers. IT basically lets the squad have another flamer, that also has a boltgun attached that hits at -1BS.

If you are going to take a dreadnaught I can't see any reason not to take the librarian dreadnaught. It is pretty solid and since it hits on 2+, has AP -4, and always does 3 damage it seems the best all around damage dealer. Not to mention you get the wonderful psychic abilities that can buff yourself or nearby units. It can also can deny the witch.

The other really cool thing I realized is that since it is a character and has less than 10 wounds it also can't be targeted by shooting meaning you are much more likely to get it into combat alive.

Overall, this is the only dreadnaught variant i would run. The Furioso and DC are complete wastes of points. It is really frustrating how much extra you pay for them over dreadnaught. It almost so overpriced I feel it was a mistake or oversight.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
I've found that Company Veterans squad is also quite effective. Variable squad size from 2 up to 5 models and they get access to a LOT of wargear.

Agreed, they are really nice. I like them with a couple of Storm shields to protect a character with an invulnerable save. If someone attacks the squad, the Storm Shields will help to protect them. If someone attacks the character, they are protected by their invulnerable save, if they fail that, they can pass the wound off to a cheap mook who just has BP/CS.

Nice with Mephiston as well as long as they can keep up with him.