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I think you can come up with some good reasons to run GSC with AM, mostly because the GSC have hard hitting assault units that can ambush. It's a very specialized army vision, but one that I think could be a lot of fun.

A broader Imperium army will always have more options, including many similar ones, such as spamming eversors instead of relying on cult ambush.

Given the requirement to have half the army start on the board, mixing GSC and AM does cut into the AM ability to bring in Scions, and it also precludes bringing a super heavy (unless that is the only AM detachment you bring in.) However, that leaves a number of truly great units, all of which love to start on the board. Namely, you can drop conscripts & friends, plasma vets, and artillery, all of which will provide on the board pressure while cult ambush hits them where they live. It's not all that different in theory than a scion heavy hammer and anvil army, just with assault instead of shooting.

 Polonius wrote:

 sumi808 wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

What´s the general opinion about the Devil Dog?

MAGNETS!

I magnetized the hull weapons for my 5th edition Hellhounds, but the turret weapons have a nice plug, and you don't even need to magnetize. they fit nicely just by pressure, and if that fails, use a dab of rubber cement.
____

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Are Knights & Assassins good? If so, I second the desire to hear about them within an IG context.

to give a peek ahead at my plans for the next few updates:
- Heavy Support (I haven't even started this, so probably not until late this week)
-Lords of War (Eight very similar super heavies, I'll enjoy a relatively quick turn around)
-Selected FW units (Hopefully as much as possible. Depending on my energy, I might split the superheavies into their own discussion)
-Traditional Allies, including assassins, Sisters, and inquisition (possibly Grey Knights if I'm really feeling it). this likely won't be unit by unit, but broader with the highlights discussed
-Imperial Knights
-Modern Allies, including Admech, Talons, and Space Marines (even more sketched out)
-Krieg/Elysian list discussion (Honestly, I'm waiting for consensus on this to settle down a bit as well)

I have some more ideas for what are, essentially, blog posts or articles, that I might write up if I'm still feeling it. Things like how to physically start an IG army, a discussion of the various models over the years, third party companies and other resources for bits and full models, etc. Obviously, this will all be months worth of work, and I can't promise anything beyond the AM units in Index 2.

all of the assassins are good, and at under 100 points, with more wounds, the protection of the character rule, and the ability to "deep strike", they can truly act as assassins. The eversor has a 78% chance of charging after appearing thanks to 3d6 charge (keep in mind CP rerolls), making him able to simply lock down any backfield shooting units the enemy decides to bring. The callidus can be super annoying, while the Vindicaire is both super durable and able to reliably (if not swiftly) put wounds on enemy characters. The Culexus really prefers to be fighting near psykers, so depending on your area, he could be solid.

As for knights, they're not as nasty as they were in 7th, although a full army can still be quite good. They are very good in close combat, with the ability to make 12 dreadnought level attacks, or 4 titan level attacks, but they also have a 5++ invulnerable in shooting, with no move and shoot penalty. Most critically, they can fall back, and still shoot and charge, meaning as long as they are alive, they really can't be locked up, and and will grind down the enemy. My current though is to take a Warden with Stormspear pod (essentially 3 Krak missles for 45 points).

Thanks much on the capsule thoughts, much appreciated. I'm guessing Knight paired with Arty means absolutely zero need for 8E IG Tanks.

Also, if you're a filthy casual, COUNT AS >> MAGNETS! Of course, if you're casual, then WYSIWYG works fine, too.

gungo wrote:
I fail to see how that's any different to having a space marine detachment with their own strategems. It's really not any different. It's almost universally better allying in other imperium units, considering the only great unit in gsc is the purestrain stealers w patriarch.

Imperium keyword - all imperial units, but not extra strategems, relics or warlord traits.

AM keyword - all AM units, AM strategems relic and warlord traits.

GSC keyword - all AM units all GSC units, GSC strategems, relics, and warlord traits.

Notice how with the AM in order to get more you give up strategems whereas with GSC you're playing AM+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
I think you can come up with some good reasons to run GSC with AM, mostly because the GSC have hard hitting assault units that can ambush. It's a very specialized army vision, but one that I think could be a lot of fun.

A broader Imperium army will always have more options, including many similar ones, such as spamming eversors instead of relying on cult ambush.

Given the requirement to have half the army start on the board, mixing GSC and AM does cut into the AM ability to bring in Scions, and it also precludes bringing a super heavy (unless that is the only AM detachment you bring in.) However, that leaves a number of truly great units, all of which love to start on the board. Namely, you can drop conscripts & friends, plasma vets, and artillery, all of which will provide on the board pressure while cult ambush hits them where they live. It's not all that different in theory than a scion heavy hammer and anvil army, just with assault instead of shooting.

Sure imperium has a broader spread of units but they already said going imperium you're limited to basic rule strategems and warlord traits (and get presumably no relics). The issue I see is by giving GSC the full AM list they've essentially made AM+ while giving up nothing. Right now yes imperium is the same way but as codices roll out GSC will get their strats and traits and imperium will not.

Well, all we really have to analyze right now is the rules of the Indexes. So, I'm not too worried about any potential future bonuses for GSC. It seems very unlikely that they will allow a full codex AM detachment, but will likely either allow a limited range of units, or adding in AM will cause the GSC to lose some rules.

Either way, that's both hypothetical and concerns game design, which is a bit beyond the topic of this tread.

 sumi808 wrote:

MAGNETS!

Magnetise your turret so you can swap at will between the 3 types of weapon. Also magnetise the hull mount so you can swap at will between heavy bolter, heavy flamer and MM

then experiment

personally im going to magnetise and run 3 HH with HF

Sadly I can't use magnets since one of the hellhounds is the old model, and I don't want to mix models, so everthing would have to be Devil Dogs.

Anyways, for the same point cost, a Manticore seems better. Almost the same damage output but never worring about range...

 Polonius wrote:
Well, all we really have to analyze right now is the rules of the Indexes. So, I'm not too worried about any potential future bonuses for GSC. It seems very unlikely that they will allow a full codex AM detachment, but will likely either allow a limited range of units, or adding in AM will cause the GSC to lose some rules.

Either way, that's both hypothetical and concerns game design, which is a bit beyond the topic of this tread.

Tbh, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. I think GW likes those allies quite a bit. But you're right - neither here nor there.

Bluthusten wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
.

Bluthusten wrote:Ill try out:

-Straken
-10 Vets with heavyflamer, 3 flamer, shotguns
-priest

All in a Walkyrie. They can Jump out, move, flame and charge something. What do you think?

I think that's a 400 point package, and while I think it will mulch a squad when it hits, it damn well should. To give you some comparison, for ~660 points, you can take ten sternguard, with a fist and two heavy flamers, a dreadnought with assault cannon, CCW, and heavy flamer; and a Stormraven with hurrican bolters, twin lasannons, and twin multi-meltas. Yes, that's 60% more points, but it's way more durable, better in HtH, and has far more anti-tank.

yes, you built one of the best airmobile shock squads available to the IG, but it's still not a great buy. I think it would be a ton of fun though!

I though about Silvester Stallone and his crew from The Expendables

This....made me laugh harder than almost anything I've ever seen on this forum

Hey everybody, I haven't forgotten about this project. My wife broke her ankle last week, so I've been busy taking care of her. I hope to find some time to at least finish the heavy support section by Friday.

 Polonius wrote:
Hey everybody, I haven't forgotten about this project. My wife broke her ankle last week, so I've been busy taking care of her. I hope to find some time to at least finish the heavy support section by Friday.

Don't worry about it. Wives are more important than 40k.

Family >> 40k.

Take as much time as you need.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Family >> 40k.

Take as much time as you need.

Third

I wish your wife a speedy recovery.

Looking forward to reading the thread once the time is right for you to continue it.

I refresh this page everyday hoping for more.

Take your time to sort your wife out.

I can't wait for a full review! Everything so far is saved as a google docs file on my drive, it just seems so well thought out and reasonable. Thanks!

CombedTurnip wrote:
I refresh this page everyday hoping for more.

Take your time to sort your wife out.

I can't wait for a full review! Everything so far is saved as a google docs file on my drive, it just seems so well thought out and reasonable. Thanks!

Me too, I hope he can get back to it soon.

Hello all, and welcome back! My wife's surgery ended up being more complicated than they though, so while she is recovering nicely, I've been very busy. Still, I've managed to put together my heavy support section. As always, comments and questions are appreciated.

Heavy Support

This is the part of the review that old school IG treadheads look forward to the most – discussion of tanks, and artillery, and.. well, basically those two, plus heavy weapon squads. Traditionally a strength and source of offensive heavy lifting, the heavy support options have cooled off a bit while the rest of the list has improved over the last 17 years. Still, it will be an unusual AM army that doesn't include some of these delights...

Heavy Weapons Squad
For those interested in history, heavy weapon squads danced all over the Force Org Chart. In the 3rd edition back of the book lists, they were actually bundled as either mortar, fire support(heavy bolter/autocannon), or anti-tank (Missile/Lascannon) squads, and they were split between troops (fire support) and heavy support (the rest). In third edition, they were part of the HQ platoon, and limited to no more than two of a kind, and five total. (Fun fact, you could also take a sentinel squadron as part of the HQ platoon). In the 3.5 codex, they stayed in HQ, but could also be taken as platoons in heavy support. In the 5th and 7th edition books, they were part of the platoon, and could finally completely mix and match weapons. Now, they are independent heavy support options, and holy cow are they terrific.  One of the reasons they are so good is that, like all non-veteran Infantry
While they pay full price for the weapons, the base squad is suspiciously cheap at 12pts. This makes triple mortars only 27pts, while even trip-las runs a mere 72pts. Even at BS3, this is very efficient source of long range fire power. Unfortunately, they are fragile, with only six total wounds spread over three models. This means that weapons that are Damage 2 will kill a full base, and at T3/5+ save, expect to see a lot of 2+ to wound, no save against them. That said... not a lot of armies spam Damage 2 weapons, at least that I've seen so far. And even in an all infantry list, where the enemy lascannons and other stupidly powerful weapons will be shooting at the heavy weapon squads, it takes more shots than you'll think.  (the math is boring, but to kill a full squad of three, it takes 6 shots at BS3+, S6 or higher, AP2 or higher, and damage d6).  Regardless, these are not durable squads, but they have a huge amount of firepower on a fragile platform.  Due to this, you can’t take just one squad with lascannons and expect it to do much.  You either need to spam multiple squads to minimize the losses, or with the ability to split fire, you can put lascannons in squads with two mortars.  This makes for a very cheap lascannon (42pts) but I would keep in mind that not every opponent will be able to wipe out the squads, so consider running some squads with full weapons.
On that note, which weapons should you take?  The biggest loser is probably the missile launcher, which pays a sizable premium for versatility, and no army with access to as many lasguns, heavy bolters, and mortars as the IG should pay a premium for a frag missile option.  All of the other options have uses, although the Autocanon remains, shall we say, “niche.”  (the autocannon is the best weapon against some targets, such as termiantors and other multiwound models with good invulnerable saves, which IMO makes it a fine weapon in a couple of infantry squads, but not worth burning a heavy support slot over.)  However, the other three are all very solid.  The mortar is the easiest to see the value in, because it’s so dirt cheap, and can shoot without LOS.  It’s good on its own, and it also makes ideal ablative wounds for more expensive options.  IN the end, it is just a bunch of S4 shots that still need to roll to hit, but the squad is so laughably cheap that there seems to be little downside, other than inflating your kill point total.  The heavy bolter is a legit gun in 8th edition, and while it will never do a lot, it will reliably chip wounds off anything it shoots at.  That sort of minimal firepower is fine at the price, which is very low. On top of providing the firepower, a squad like this can dramatically increase your armies footprint, limiting drop zones for enemy deepstrikers.
Finally, you have the real star of the show, the lascannon.  The IG are interesting in that while they are famed for being a gunline army, the list doesn’t provide a lot of strong long ranged firepower options.  Infantry based lascannons are actually good in 8th edition, and the heavy weapon squads are the most point efficient way to field them.  As discussed above, when packing lascannons, the squads are threatening and expensive enough to justify making them a priority, and with only six wounds, they won’t last long.  Either spam them like hell, or mix them with mortars or heavy bolters.  When bought in three-packs, they’re actually a pretty decent target for orders, but that’s not enough reason, on its own, to run them straight. 
Overall: Highly Competitive
 
Basilisk
Another long serving IG model, the baslisk is a classic.  It’s always been a long range, powerful, indirect fire weapon, and 8th edition does not change anything.  In terms of durability, the “open topped” nature of the bassie is represented by the model being T6 instead of the usual Chimera hull T7, but it has the 11 wounds of the hellhound, one more than the basic transport.  T6 is obviously more vulnerable to S6/S7 weapons than T7, but that’s the range of weapons which have suffered the most from the shift to 8th, and I do not see the loss of toughness as being huge.  Further, the bassie doesn’t even need line of sight with its main gun, so feel free to hid it if you can.  While she can take a heavy bolter or heavy flamer (and you should take the cheaper heavy bolter) the star of the show here is the earthshaker cannon.  Like in prior editions, it’s basically battle cannon with S9, but it also rolls two dice for the number of shots, picking the highest.  This yields roughly 4.5 shots a turn, which does drop to only 2.25 hits, but those hits hit pretty hard.  It’s only AP-2 and Damage d3, but it’s wounding almost anything on a 3+, with infantry eating it at 2+.  Unlike in prior editions, this is not meant to shoot at single wound infantry, instead it’s clearly designed for hitting multiwound models.  It also does yeoman’s work against vehicles, stripping roughly 1.5 wounds from T8, 3+ save models.  Keep in mind that it has ridiculous range and indirect fire, meaning it can reach out and touch anything on the board. 
It can also be bought in a three pack under the Vehicle Squadron rule.  This rule causes the “unit” to be deployed as one, with all models within 6” of each other.  After deployment, however, each model acts independently.  This is actually a pretty positive rule, because it allows you to cram more artillery in a battalion detachment, while also minimizing your drops.  OTOH, it does increase your kill point total, and prevents buffs from improving three at once.  On the whole though, it’s a positive rule, as it allows the IG to bring more medium vehicles to the party.  
While a fine piece of kit, I think that the bassie suffers from being the middle child between the harder hitting Manticore and higher volume of shots from the Wyvern.   The old girl is very affordable at just over 100pts, and it can fire at full effect until it drops to only 5 wounds.  If you are a retruning player with an old basilisk, or you happen to prefer howitzers to mortars or rockets, the bassie is a solid, multifaceted choice.
Overall: competitive

Hydra:
A true piece of specialist kit, the Hydra is designed to shoot down flyers, and that’s about it.  The start of show here is the Hydra Quad Autocannon, an eight shot autocannon that gets a +1 to hit flyers, and a -1 to hit all other targets.  The crucial thing to remember is that “flyers” now include any unit that moves through the air in any way, not just 6th edition style flyers.  So jetbikes, jump pack infantry, winged monsters, and skimmers all are “flyers,” and so the hydra gets a +1 to hit them, even if they do not have the Hard to Hit rule.  So, the Hydra is essentially BS3+ against flyers that are not hard to hit, BS4+ against hard to hit flyers, and BS5+ against everything else.  This alone makes the Hydra a reactive weapon – there is no reason to take it unless you play against units that Fly.  Still, Flyers are so common, it’s a safe bet the Hydra will get a chance to shine.  Looking at the Hydra against a common vehicle archtype, the deadly storm raven, the Quad only lays two wounds per turn, which perversely is actually less than a three lascannon heavy weapon squad.  However, against jetbikes, the Quad guns hit on 3s, wound on 3s, and outright kill a bike per shot due to damage 2, meaning it will waste nearly two jetbikes per turn.  For raw firepower, the Hydra suffers from the same ceiling as the basic autocannon: low AP, and only damage 2. 
Defensively, the Hydra has the same basic chassis as the basilisk and other “open topped” artillery, combining the wound count of a medium tank with the toughness of a light tank.  It also can be bought in “squadrons” like the basilisk.  Unfortunately, the Hydra is a fairly pricey option, clocking in at over 120pts a piece.  While more durable than in prior editions, it’s just pillow fisted and narrow in focus.
Overall: semi-competitive

Wyvern:
Probably one of the best units in the codex last edition, the Wyvern retains its focus as a light infantry killer, with the same artillery chassis as the basilisk, but the extravagantly named “wyvern quad stormshard mortar” as the main gun.  This weapon is not subtle: it can fire out of LOS, with 4d6 shots at S4, rerolling wounds.  That sounds like a lot of potential wounds, but like all blast weapons, the need to roll to hit means that even against T3, you’re not even forcing seven saves.  Sharp eyed readers might ask why buy the Wyvern when it’s basically the same as two mortar heavy weapon squads, which are cheaper and easier to hide out of line of sight.  The Wyvern is arguably more durable, and it can take advantage of the Master of Ordnance aura.  In general, this isn’t 7th edition, and I wouldn’t make the wyvern the go to artillery piece.  Absent some ability to increase either the number of shots or hits, this is another casualty in the switch away from blast templates.  Not for the first time, a weapon that had been twinlinked in 7th edition lost the re-roll, but kept the overall number of shots.  One of the reasons the Wyvern was nasty in the past was that it got four twinlinked shots, which nearly guaranteed bunched up hits with no need to roll against BS.  At d6 shots at BS4+, the wyvern will average nearly two hits per mortar, which was easily eclipsed in prior editions.  The Wyvern is comparatively cheap at just over 90 points per, but I’d take two heavy weapon squads with mortars at 54pts every time. 
Overall: semi-competitive

Manticore:
Here is your heavy hitter.  The manticore is actually more durable than most artillery at T7 (historically it was not open topped), and it cannot be bought in squadrons.  However, it is armed with four storm eagle rockets, each of which can only be fired once, and only one per turn.  (Oddly, nearly all other limited ammo weapons were simply made Heavy 1, such as hellstrike missiles.)   The rocket hits hard, with 2d6 shots at Strength 10, Ap-2, and Damage d3.  Do not, unless you have no other choice, waste this on single wound models.  Against heavy vehicles, each rocket will average about six wounds, which doesn’t sound like much until you realize it takes over six lascannon shots (at BS4+) to do the same work.  With huge range, no need for line of sight, and a price tag just north of 130pts, the manticore hits harder, and far more efficiently, than the rest of the artillery options.  The only real drawback is that it can only fire four times, which will come up less than you think.  Most games will be more or less decided long before turn five, and even without rockets it’s a durable objective grabber if need be. 
This isn’t a complicated entry: the manticore hits harder than anything else less than a lord of war, and is surprisingly affordable. 
Overall: highly competitive. 

Deathstrike
A variant on the manticore, the Deathstrike has only one big missile which hits very, very hard. It's heavy 3d6, and every hit causes a mortal wound! Further, every other unit within 6” from the target takes d3 mortal wounds on a 4+. In theory, this makes the deathstrike a powerful option for hitting not only tough units (averaging 7 mortal wounds) but also tightly packed clusters of enemy units. In practice, the utility of this is hamstrung by the special rules. Not only does the deathstrike only shoot once, it can only shoot by rolling a d6, adding the turn number, and hitting 8 or more. Which means it cannot fire turn one, and only fires turn two on a 6+. This makes this weapon quite unreliable, and allows an enemy to target it at their leisure. The deathstrike had been a fun, goofy option for several editions, and that doesn't really change. The reality of modern 40k is that by the time this thing fires, the game will be more or less decided, making it either too little too late, or just piling on.
Overall: casual

Leman Russ Battle Tank
I don't want to bury the lede, so let's just start by saying that the LRBT is not a very good choice. I'll talk about why, and I'll talk about ways to mitigate it, but the basic tank simply cannot hold up to the better options in the book.

To start, the LRBT is one of the few vehicles to become less durable in the change to 8th. In the past, the front armor 14 and long range meant that long range anti-tank weapons actually struggled to hurt the basic Russ. Instead, most Russes went down to either meltas or close combat. Now, instead of a lascannon hit having only a 1/3 chance of stripping a hull point, it has about a 5/9 chance of stripping 3.5 wounds. Meltas now strip 3.5 wounds half the time, even at full range. The tank is actually more durable against combat now, but the days of the LRBT shrugging off enemy lascannons are over.

To make matters worse, the LRBT is pretty pillow fisted. In prior editions, even the basic battle cannon had a really good chance of hitting, and when it did, it laid a Strength 8, AP3 hit on everything it touched. It now averages just under two hits a turn at Strength 8, Ap-2, and Damage d3. It's hard to tell what the ideal target for it is. I guess multiwound models, to get the most out of the d3 damage, but it's not an efficient anti-tank gun, and doesn't have the shots to really threaten infantry. An admittedly better is the Eradicator Nova Cannon, which drops to S6 but prevents units from gaining the benefit of cover. (It also halves the battle cannon's range.) This is pretty clearly meant to clear enemy infantry, but will still average less than a dead marine a turn. The exterminator cannon again went from four shots, twin linked, to... just four shots. Autcannons are not good enough for two of them to justify a Leman Russ chassis. Finally, that leaves us with the Vanquisher cannon, which has S8, AP-3, and damage d6, with the ability to roll two dice pick the highest regardless of range. This is actually worse than a basic lascannon against T8 targets, so keep that in mind. The Battle Cannon is technically the cheapest option, but it's only three points less than the other choices, so I wouldn't call it the budget option. Still, if you feel the need to run a Leman Russ, I would go battle cannon, simply because it can do anything the other three offer, while having luxurious range.

The hull and sponson options don't exactly make the tank great, but they are, surprisingly, more of a reason to buy the tank than in prior editions. I'm pro heavy bolters, and three of them will always force some saves on nearly any target. The hull lascannon probably makes more sense in an infantry squad or tank commander, because full price for a BS4+ lascannon on a fire magnet is not a great plan. I generally feel the same way about multimelta sponsons. Plasma sponsons are actually a pretty good buy, although they are only heavy d3. Still, Russes have a special rule that causes the model to only lose six wounds if an overcharged plasma rolls a one. That's a steep price to pay, especially since you also lose the ability to shoot plasma. IG have no shortage of access to plasma, so I'm not sure I'd shoehorn them in here. Finally, heavy flamers, while priced at full retail, are intriguing, as you can move and shoot all three to full effect. The “Fireball pattern” Russ seems more fun than powerful, simply because the LRBT cannot fall back out of combat and still shoot. This means that if you don't kill what you hit with the heavy flamers, odds are, the Russ will be assaulted, and not shooting for at least a turn.

Is there any good news? Well, the LRBT has a healthy move of 10”, meaning it no longer is a lumbering behemoth. It also does have a special rule allowing turret weapons to ignore the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. If I were forced to play this unit in a game, I would probably go for the battle cannon with single heavy bolter, and use it's speed to hassle the enemy on the flanks. It's a bit pricy, even in this skinny version, at 162pts, but I just do not see any traditional gunline use for this unit.

Overall: semi-competitive

Leman Russ Demolisher

The Index splits the Leman Russ variants along familiar lines, although the demolisher variants no longer enjoy any enhanced durability. Instead, the split seem to be made primarily on cost, with the demolisher variants clocking in at one higher power level, presumably because the have usually had more expensive sponson/hull weapons, as the only turret option dramatically more expensive is the actual demolisher cannon itself. The punisher is actually the cheapest possible LR turret weapon! The split in the index also reflects the kit being split, and thus allows GW to only include the rules that are appropriate for each half in the box, although SM scouts, one of the few other unit choices split between two model boxes, are a single unit entry.

Outside of price and turret options, everything said about the LRBT applies to the Demolisher, so lets look at those turret options. The Demolisher cannon itself is an impressive piece of kit. Retaining it's traditional 24” range, it has d3 shots, but d6 against units with more than five models, making it far more versatile. Even against monsters and vehicles, the Demolisher cannon will bad touch most targets with S10, AP-3, and a healthy d6 damage. So, you have basically a d3 shot lascannon that can move and shoot without penalty, that can also go full blast against large units. This power comes at a healthy price tag, at 40 points above the chassis. Still, if you want a tank that will do some damage, this is your girl. The executioner cannon, which was a three shot small blast before, is now merely heavy d6... which is the same as a lot of single small blasts, like frag missiles. It can be supercharged, and if you roll a one or more ones to hit, the model takes d6 mortal wounds. So... don't do that unless you have rerolls. This option isn't horribly expensive, but no army is spoilt for plasma choice more than IG. You can buy a lot of Special Weapon Squads with plasma guns for the price of a single LR Executioner. Finally, the Punisher gatling cannon offers 20 shots at S5, focusing on sheer volume of fire. In many ways, this is the strongest option, fully loaded with heavy bolters and a storm bolter at 178pts, this puts out a 31-33 shots. The only thing to keep in mind is that the Taurox prime with mini gatling cannon does much the same thing for cheaper, but S5 is admittedly better against a broad array of targets (anything with T4, T5, or T8) As a leman russ, it can move and shoot without penalty, meaning you're forcing quite a few saves against almost any target. If you had to include a Russ, I'd probably go with this one.

Overall: semi-competitive

I'm surprised at your grading on the Manticore. I've fielded it three times and it never does anything. Bad luck on my part? Good luck on my opponents? Poor choice in target?

I guess I should give it another couple of tries. In the end, I never manage any more than 3 or 4 wounds on whatever I'm trying to kill.

The performance of a Manticore is very much luck-based. It has a LOT of range in both number of shots and how much damage it does.

While I agree the Manticore is great I'm curious how you got the six average wounds.

7 shots average, 3.5 hits, 2.333 wounds vs t7 and 8, 1,556 unsaved vs 3+ results in only 3,111 damage.

Mostly agree with what you have in for heavy support. I've found the artillery to be very good with the Master providing an aura. The Russes I think are somewhat necessary just to soak fire, but it's a balancing game don't really want too much. Ive found the most luck fielding a command punishser with an executioner tagging along. The orders let you overcharge it all and that's a lot of plasma. As you said heavy weapon squads are cheap and good

I've been disappointed with the wyvern. Most of the time youre shooting troops out of LoS. In cover. Gaining them a +1 to save. And even with re-rolling wounds. Hitting on fours. It doesn't get a ton of wounds. And if you moved. Hitting on 5's.....sad times.

Manticore is a nice unit. Having something that can hit while out of LoS is a nice thing to have. The enemy knows they can't hide.

Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

Nice read. I have only played 2 games of 8th using my guard but I won them both and I found using the vox for an 18" order bubble was really good. I had creed, a command squad and 3 vet squads and I was able to spread my guys out whilst keeping creed out of line of sight (he had sniper scouts). I mainly used "Take aim!" For the reroll of 1s for my plasma guns but it also gave my missile launchers better accuracy enabling them to really bring the pain to his vehicles.

 More Dakka wrote:
Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

For my AA Im going to run a Thunderbolt with 6 Skystrike missiles. Cool model. And the thought of guard having some air support (Which isn't a hover) is interesting to me. Hits fliers on 4's.

I just envision a thematic fight in the air.

Totally agree, if we're moving into FW there's fantastic AA options in the Aeronautica Imperialis.

For stock Index/Codex only situations (Tournies that are no FW, etc) I'm always going to bring a squad of 2 Hydras.

FW really shifts a lot of the discussion about IG overall.

The Conqueror puts all the LR tanks to shame for it's point cost and coaxial stormbolter alone. The Hydra/Manticore/Basilisk platforms are a better buy than any of their tracked counterparts and the Griffon completely pants'es the Wyvern for almost 30 points less.

I concur on FW skewing the IG discussion. The quad launchers are not as deadly as they used to be and went up in price, but they are still an excellent buy if you're looking for anti infantry options. Since they are crewed by infantry they can also receive orders while benefiting from auras as well.

The Forgeworld units are now actually as unbalanced as people have always accused them of being. For decades ,people have viewed FW with suspicion, while it has mostly been overpriced and fiddly. Now? There are some killer units, dumb pricing, and plenty of typos. It's hard to really assess some of the FW choices due to this.

As for the manticore, I think I miscalculated, so I'll fix that in a few hours. I still think it's one of the more potent weapons we have access to.

The Hyrda just doesn't get it done. Two wounds a turn against medium flyers just isn't a lot of damage. Even with three, it would take you two turns to whittle down a stormraven. But.. slapping around two wound models, or models with a good invulnerable save? It's pretty solid.

Just a small correction; the Deathstrike averages 5,25 mortal wounds to it's target (3x3,5 = 10,5 / 2 = 5,25), not 7.

It also "on average" causes 1 mortal wound to units within 6"

This thing isn't even casual, it's for people who are into self-harm. :/

I loved fielding it in 6th and 7th. It was never a good choice (back then it *was* casual), but it was fun and on occasion it did something spectacular. Now in 8th, it's not even fun, it's just depressing.

 rhinoceraids wrote:

Spoiler:

 More Dakka wrote:
Great thread, really enjoying it!

I'm going to disagree with you on Hydras. They're static 8 shots make them very solid choices in a TAC army. I played against a GK army with no <FLY> keywords and they still put out an impressive amount of damage against a Knight and squad of Paladins. So much so they started to get targeted by anti-tank fire.

The strength of Hard to Hit type flyers means you'll be facing them a lot with little reliable means to deal with them. Guard themselves only have the very garbage Valk to answer to things like Stormravens, Stormwolfs, DE and Eldar jets, the list goes on.

A lot of gamers compare the Hydra to the basic HW squad with 3 ACs, but you'd need to take 2 full HW squads with auto cannons to match the to-hit output of a Hydra against anything that flies. That's 114 points vs 123 and add to that the fact that it's a 72" range gun and WAY more survivable than a HW squad and it's clear the Hydra has a place in a lot of competitive lists. You even get a Heavy Bolter in there so that makes the points cost nearly identical.

For my AA Im going to run a Thunderbolt with 6 Skystrike missiles. Cool model. And the thought of guard having some air support (Which isn't a hover) is interesting to me. Hits fliers on 4's.

I just envision a thematic fight in the air.

That sounded tempting till I saw it was 94 pounds.

 Polonius wrote:
The Forgeworld units are now actually as unbalanced as people have always accused them of being. For decades ,people have viewed FW with suspicion, while it has mostly been overpriced and fiddly. Now? There are some killer units, dumb pricing, and plenty of typos. It's hard to really assess some of the FW choices due to this.

As for the manticore, I think I miscalculated, so I'll fix that in a few hours. I still think it's one of the more potent weapons we have access to.

The Hyrda just doesn't get it done. Two wounds a turn against medium flyers just isn't a lot of damage. Even with three, it would take you two turns to whittle down a stormraven. But.. slapping around two wound models, or models with a good invulnerable save? It's pretty solid.

I agree that they're not the best at taking down Stormravens/wolves but nothing else in our bag is good except for Pask in a Demolisher, which is what you should be using to take down that level of flyer.

More to the point, it's the other units that the Hydras excel against that makes them worth it. In a tournament the odds of facing off against Eldar, DE, Necrons, Nids, Tau are pretty high and all of these armies are packed with dangerous units that fly. Hitting them on 3's with re-rolls of 1 bc Harker (always Harker) make the Hydras pretty deadly for their points cost.

Really enjoyable read. Just like the 5th edition version!

Any chance of a review of some of the key forgeworld units for AM? I.e. Vendettas, Vultures, Malcadors?