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 jhnbrg wrote:
Orks have always been both shooting and close combat, more than half the choises in the codex (index?) are about shooting ffs!

QFT.

Saying Orks are not a shooty army is a proof of ignorance. Some editions have made them stronger in CC (3rd with the Choppa rule) or stronger in shooting (6th with Hull points and stupid duels that rendered the Nobz useless), but it's always been a balanced army.

The problem nowadays, as it's been pointed out, is that most armies have a much higher rate of fire AND a better BS, for CHEAPER and on much more resistant chassis. The point-for-point effectiveness of Orks has dropped really low for almost all their shooty units, and even lower if you considere that almost all their shooty units *need* a Battlewagon in order to survive at least 1 turn.

All of that leads to Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandoes being the only non-HQ units worth their salt. Which is sad if you don't like playing a horde army or at least, not a full horde.

 Blackie wrote:
I think orks were better in 7th than now. Yes we have the greentide spam that can be mid tier but even in 7th edition we did have some mid tier lists with tons of bikers and/or the bullyboyz.

This edition is better than previous one but orks are even more terrible, that says enough about them.

Footslogging is by far much stronger in 8-th for orks. Mech and biker hordes are not nearly as strong as they used to be.

We all know that footslogging boyz work now - which is a mighty feat cause the last time they did was in 5-th. Well, greentide formation had a brief period of relevancy in the hands of experienced players because they countered the meta and were resilient and fast enough to soak non anti-horde weaponry and kill stuff with power klaws. But than invisible super-friends with a million attacks, scatbike spam and time limitations stopped greentide in it's tracks. Also, stormboyz are great now. Can't think of any time in 40k tabletop historythis was true at all.

However, footslogging hordes have always been pretty restrictive to what you can take alongside them cause their sole purpose is redundancy. It's simple - boyz got to outnumber the amount of led thrown in their general direction before they reach combat. And decent support stuff is very expensive and takes away from the amount of boyz you can field - thus taking away from this very important redundancy aspect.

As for the other lists, i'd argue that walker wall is more effective than in 7-th - still pretty bad but not unplayable any more.

Mech and biker lists are the ones taking the biggest hit with how vehicles, transports and cover saves work now. Ork mech lists relied on cheapish transports, speed and...also redundancy. Everything was so fast, relatively inexpensive yet choppy enough to deal with non mellee-oriented opponents without invisibility or re-rollable saves. Vehicles could be effectively protected with voidshields providing an extra av12 3 hp wall that also had good chances of going back up as the game went on but most importantly, provided some sort of 1-st turn protection for a fair amount of points. Even a regular trukk was not that easy to take down with VSG and a cover save. And bikers were just pretty cheap and shooty for the points. And had decent survivability vs non-ignore cover weapons.

Now transports are so expensive, running boyz is a waste. You got to field nobz and tankbustas in there but those are very pricey and take away from the numbers substantially. Wagons are like 180 a piece. Yes, they don't go down to 1 lucky melta shot any more but they still go down in 1-2 turns of shooting. And it's hard to fit more than 2 wagons and a trukk or 1 wagon and 3 trukks in a 1500 game. And it's in no way enough to get this redundancy we're used to. Oh and bikers aren't that horrible, just too expensive and can't do anything vs plasma - and plasma seems to be everywhere.

So, what i want to say is that it's not entirely correct to say that orks have become weaker. Boyz are WAY stronger, walkers are definitely stronger (still meh but better than they used to be).

 jhnbrg wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is why shooty Orks should even be viable. That's not what the army is about. It could be more viable, but that's really not the play style of the army and never has been.

Assault Marines aren't good at the whole ASSAULT thing compared to other units but I don't complain.

Orks have always been both shooting and close combat, more than half the choises in the codex (index?) are about shooting ffs!

You could say the same for Tyranids but that isn't how it works. The stereotype for these armies is CC.

Also remember that Tau players don't complain that Kroot and Vespid have never been super great at melee because the army is about shooting. They COULD be better, but what's the limit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is why shooty Orks should even be viable. That's not what the army is about. It could be more viable, but that's really not the play style of the army and never has been.

Assault Marines aren't good at the whole ASSAULT thing compared to other units but I don't complain.

Orks have always been both shooting and close combat, more than half the choises in the codex (index?) are about shooting ffs!

You could say the same for Tyranids but that isn't how it works. The stereotype for these armies is CC.

Also remember that Tau players don't complain that Kroot and Vespid have never been super great at melee because the army is about shooting. They COULD be better, but what's the limit?

Keyword there. Stereotype, a one dimensional idea on how something work or acts. Orks, and all armies, should be given the tools to play a number of different roles rather than playing the same list repeatedly. it doesn't have to be ALL roles, but the different ways army can act can be done without relying on making choices intentionally bad

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is why shooty Orks should even be viable. That's not what the army is about. It could be more viable, but that's really not the play style of the army and never has been.

Quite the opposite. Tons of orks units are pure shooty ones. We have 10ish different kinds of artillery, lootas, tankbustas, flash gitz, 4 flyers, buggies that are completely focused on shooting and several other units that rely on shooting as much (if not more) as close combat like bikers, kanz, burnaboyz, koptas but also bigger walkers like dreads, nauts and stompa are full of guns, the morkanaut in particular is more focused on shooting and giving a KFF bubble to friendly orks than looking to assault things. In fact we probably have more shooty units than choppy ones, and this is true since 3d edtion at least.

Orks always loved to fire big guns. No one wants them to be accurate but they should have a volume of fire that makes their firepower average, compared to other armies. Like orks close combat, which relies on a high number of low-mid strength hits, nothing is an absolute beast in combat, not even ghaz or the gorkanaut. Meganobz were decent in 7th, now they're more useful for blocking enemies' movements than smashing faces.

Right now orks shooting is almost useless, that's why many competitive lists are just boyz + characters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is why shooty Orks should even be viable. That's not what the army is about. It could be more viable, but that's really not the play style of the army and never has been.

Assault Marines aren't good at the whole ASSAULT thing compared to other units but I don't complain.

Orks have always been both shooting and close combat, more than half the choises in the codex (index?) are about shooting ffs!

You could say the same for Tyranids but that isn't how it works. The stereotype for these armies is CC.

Also remember that Tau players don't complain that Kroot and Vespid have never been super great at melee because the army is about shooting. They COULD be better, but what's the limit?

I didnt know that the absolute majority of the tau units are kroots, you are perhaps being a bit deceptive maybe?

Poly Ranger wrote:
The ballistic skill of the models that can take it should never be a factor in determining the price of a gun as ballistic skill is priced by the model, not by the weapon. Marines for example, have already paid for that accuracy in their points cost, Orks have not.

Doesn't seem like that would work at all from a perspective of balancing the game though, since the value of the BS scales with the effectiveness of the gun, so if fixed points are charged for each, it does not take into account that high BS has a multiplicative effect with the powerful gun, and in many cases they are bought separately.

How does this sound?

Big Mek with kustom force field

Big Mek on Warbike with Kustom force field (stays near the Kill Tanks)

10 Gretchin

9 Boyz with shootas, 1 Nob with Power Klaw (in Kill Tank)

9 Boyz with shootas, 1 Nob with Power Klaw (in Kill Tank)

3 Grot Tanks with Kustom Mega Blastas 1 Kommanda with 2 Kustom Mega Blastas

3 Grot Tanks with Kustom Mega Blastas 1 Kommanda with 2 Kustom Mega Blastas

3 Grot Tanks with Kustom Mega Blastas 1 Kommanda with 2 Kustom Mega Blastas

5 Mek Guns with Kustom Mega Kannons

5 Mek Guns with Kustom Mega Kannons

5 Mek Guns with Kustom Mega Kannons

Kill Tank with Bursta Kannon and 2 twin big shootas

Kill Tank with Bursta Kannon and 2 twin big shootas

1999pts

That's 4D6 st10 ap-4 D2, 24 st5 D1, 15 st8 ap-3 Dd3 and 15D6 st8 ap-3 Dd3 shots all at BS4+, all on durable platforms for their points. A lot of those will also have a 5++ due to the kustom force fields. Only the Grot Tanks have a range under 36". There is also the grots, boyz and bike shooting as well. If you don't like the lack of Boyz, you can get rid of a shooting unit or Kill Tank to afford more.

That's a fun list, but FW all over the place.

I do not have any opinion on the potential issues and their fixes, but reading that Orks are not a shooty army or a CC only one, drives me absolutly crazy.

It's wrong on a fluffy POV.
It's wrong on a 'historical' POV (bolters used to be orks favorite weapons... in v2 if I recall correctly).
It's wrong on a faction tactic POV. Orks have a lot of dakka options and dakka specialists / plateform. Heck we have two two dakka characters and one is HQ (mek and bigmek).

The only thing that I'm sure of concerning the current situation, is that I can't play a decent ork gunline when I feel that I should, even if its way less strong than full cc, cc/dakka mix, combined arm, etc...

Tbf the weakest for their points of all the shooty options in that list were the Grot Tanks, which I only included because they were FA, I was trying to keep it as a battalion and trying to fit as many guns in as possible. I think replacing the Grot Tanks with Stormboyz would make the list stronger even if less shooty (still a shooty list overall though). The only other FW is the Kill Tanks.

On a side note, Mek Guns and Kill Tanks are amazingly shooty for their points! Wow!

Although having said that, a missile launcher heavy weapons team in a HWS for Guard is pretty close in output to a grot tank with Kustom Mega blasta (worse ap but better damage) and is 24pts to the tanks 39, is considerably less durable and definitely less mobile being heavy with shorter potential movement. So the Grot Tank is pretty decent for its points (especially the kommander - he's excellent for 48pts), it's just that they look terrible compared to Mek Guns.

IronSlug wrote:

It's wrong on a 'historical' POV (bolters used to be orks favorite weapons... in v2 if I recall correctly).
..

I believe so. Also they were fond of heavy plasma cannons (still got a load of 1st gen plastic orks with the shoulder mounted heavy plasma cannons...if they ever get fielded nowadays I count them as lootas.)

Hold the phone... forgot to include the Grot gunners, take off 3 Mek Guns, change the Power Klaws to a big choppas and increase both boyz squads to 12 and add a grot to the grot squad. 12D6 st8 ap-3 Dd3 shots from the Mek Guns now not 15d6. 2000 on the nose.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is why shooty Orks should even be viable. That's not what the army is about. It could be more viable, but that's really not the play style of the army and never has been.

You might want to read any piece of fluff for orks or any novel that is about fighting orks. I can recommend the novel "Helsreach" if you actually care.
The style of the ork army was and always has been shooting until you reach combat. In 5th some ork armies could outshoot necrons or marines if they dedicated their army to that cause.

Orks are not khorne daemons.

 Blackie wrote:
Orks always loved to fire big guns. No one wants them to be accurate but they should have a volume of fire that makes their firepower average, compared to other armies.

Actually, I think most players would be happy if we just kept the weapons as average as they are right now, as long as they were costed according to their actual output.

Of some of the potential options that could give Ork shooting some needed attention - such as rules to benefit their BS while moving, etc. - what I hope the Codex goes for is increasing the ROF. That seems the 'Orkiest' solution.

I don't really understand why Ork shooting should be bad.

The key point is that uou can't spend a point twice. If ork shooting was reasonable people would put points into these units. Which would mean that they wouldn't just run at you with 150~ choppa armed boy variants. Its not being suggested that Orks get to keep all that and two units of flash gits and a big squad of Lottas on top.

As I see the inverse isn't Tau because they simply do not have dedicated close combat units. Kroot are not obviously meant to assault. Sadly GW has never given them a second thought since they were first release so many years ago, so its not obvious they are meant to do anything. Maybe they will get a codex of their own some time before 2020.

Its more like Dark Eldar. You can say DE have always been venom spam and lances to taste. In practice however thats because those have been the good units. If you looked at the codex you have countless assault units and they are pretty universally bad.

Unfortunately because of Ynnari this will probably never be fixed but you can't spend points on a venom and a unit of wyches. Its an either or. If your opponent is running a unit of one thing he isn't running another.

Orks are not "balanced" by having crap shooting. It just means those units do not appear on the table.

hollow one wrote:
...balancing is complex, and for me personally when people make vacuum comparisons (like the premise of this thread) I feel like that is a waste of time and an unhealthy balance discussion.

You and I are in accord with your #1 point, although I'm not saying "don't balance", I'm saying "please consider everything when discussing balance". Comparisons are not useful and spawn debates that go no where, because you could always compare it to something else and be dissatisfied.

Totally agreed. I feel like the productive way forward is to discuss realistic, specific changes that will bring various underpowered/overcosted units up to scratch, with the hope that they may be factored into the codex. Though with 'what would like to see in the Ork Codex' being pretty much a wishlist, I understand completely why semper has gone with what is more or less a bait thread in order to draw attention to the deficiencies.

I thoroughly dislike the idea that 8th ed Orks have been put into this CC dominant stereotype. To me, what balances Orks to other factions isn't that they're specialists in one type of warfare but that they go at everything with random and crazy abandon.
The current situation is a lot to do with the necessary Index blandness in my mind. Shooty weapons have had their extremes flattened out, and BS 5+ does not help the averages at all. I don't think the Index writers really understood how rubbish that BS is.
I don't feel like it'd be fluffy or even necessary to give bonuses to Ork BS (although Gitfinda would be good to put back on a Big Mek) but numerous weapons and costs should be adjusted to take it into account.

I love some of the ideas that I've seen for new Grot units, be great to get some of them but im not holding out too much hope.
I've always liked Big/Mek Gunz but they feel too expensive and very few have enough range.
Lobbas should be useful but without blast and barrage, they no longer do enough. Could be cheaper so you can take a larger battery of them.
I've found the Bubblechukka to be one the most Orky things in the book. It has the fun factor and the good old crazy swing. With a CP reroll it can be quite devastating. Dedicating a CP to it means you'll only get good use out of one though, no one wants to bring one of a thing.
A possibility that occurs to me is a full gun crew operating as an ammo runt reroll. I think that would go a long way to helping out all gun units.

One of my other favourite backfield shootas has always been the SAG but they're almost completely ineffective now. Gitfinda would help immeasurably but I do feel like they should be 2D6 shots. Thing used to spit out a vortex pie plate if you got really lucky. And it was cheaper! I used to bring 2 in case one immolated himself.

Obviously 6+ save on Flash Gits is useless on such expensive models.
Same goes for Lootas, although as they're just Boyz with Toys, I don't think they should get better. Perhaps just cheaper/bigger units.

The FW stuff does help. I use a Meka Dread and a Kill Tank or Supa Skorcha Trakk, all are pretty mean. But ofc, none of them will be Codex.

All in all, I'm in favour of more shots and more wild and random swing, with a handful of points reductions than I am sweeping changes or Marine like buffs, auras and other such unfluffy things.

Edit. A buff that just occurred to me as fluffy, to mitigate all the to hit penalties flying around: Enough Dakka- Orks always hit something on a roll of 6...

Another issue with ork shooting units is that combined with lack of durability, and expensive price point for that durability, they lack the ability to have ablative wounds. I think ammo runts serve this purpose a bit for flash gits, so if flash gits had guns that were say rapid fire, or assault not heavy, I think that they might actually be ok.

So maybe if ork shooting units could utilize gretchin similar to tau drones, where they could shift wounds off to a cheap unit. A unit of say 10 lootas might be a bit more attractive if they cost 200 points and had 20 wounds.

It would also make gretchin useful.

Now this helps units like Tankbustas a little less as it would create issues with transportation for them.

Other than that I have said before I think ork weapons that used to be blast weapons either need a fixed number of shots (large blast a 6 shots, Small as 3) or to be based on more dice (large blast could be 3D3, Small could be say 2D2) to allow for them to actually be usable. When you have terrible BS, random shots is a killer on expensive weapons. Especially when they also have random damage. As you are highly likely to miss, rolling a 1 or 2 punishes Orks far more than it does for armies with better BS, or ways to boost their accuracy (re-rolls, +1 bonuses etc)

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Orks always loved to fire big guns. No one wants them to be accurate but they should have a volume of fire that makes their firepower average, compared to other armies.

Actually, I think most players would be happy if we just kept the weapons as average as they are right now, as long as they were costed according to their actual output.

Cheaper guns = More guns/more volume of fire

hollow one wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

hollow one wrote:
There are a lot of useful Ork units

Haha... hah...

Orks are doing terribly right now, because most of their units are garbage. You don't really know all that much about the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hollow one wrote:
You saying that Orks deserve their entire codex to be competitive and viable?

Yes.

fething duh?

Marines have more useful units in their book than Orks have units.

So we should count the amount of useful units until they are even? A month ago it would've been stormravens and Guilliman as the only viable imperium units, you think they were complaining? No one army has an entire codex of competitive units, sure some will have more than others, but look at the lists people are bringing to BAO for example, you won't see more than 4 types of units in literally every single list.

Stormravens and Gulliman aren't the only good units in the Marine codex though. They have -loads- of good units.

They can take ANY units from ANY corner of the imperium for a start, which gives them literally dozens of strong units and combinations.

Even if you take away the options they have to take units from imperial armies, and limit them to just one space marine chapter, they still have strong choices from flyers, assault squads, tanks, gunlines... pretty much everything.

Gulliman and Stormravens became the spam lists not because they were the only good units that space marines have, but because they happened to be the best units space marines have. Space marine unit options are mostly good, but gulliman/ravens were brokenly good.

With Orks, Boyz are... probably good, or at least slightly above average compared to other units in the game. But pretty much every other unit Orks have are far below average. Boyz spam isn't used because its brokenly overpowered (like gulliman/raven are/were), but because they're the only unit choice that can even vaguely compare with the "average" choices from other armies such as space marines.


There's a huge difference here, between the reasons people spam boyz, and the reasons people spammed stormravens/used gulliman.

Boyz - Have to be fielded to even stand a chance at competing.

Gulliman/Ravens - So overpowered that fielding them gives a very good chance of winning.


Space marines could field far more varied lists, and still have a better competitive edge than a boyz spam list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Orks always loved to fire big guns. No one wants them to be accurate but they should have a volume of fire that makes their firepower average, compared to other armies.

Actually, I think most players would be happy if we just kept the weapons as average as they are right now, as long as they were costed according to their actual output.

Cheaper guns = More guns/more volume of fire

Exactly. I have no problems with Orks actual stats right now, we should be innaccurate and generally firing wildly. But the costs for these options should be cheap enough that we can end up winning with sheer weight of dice.

That's basically the only reason we are good in melee too, so it's not like its an unusual concept for orks.

Niiru wrote:



Exactly. I have no problems with Orks actual stats right now, we should be innaccurate and generally firing wildly. But the costs for these options should be cheap enough that we can end up winning with sheer weight of dice.

That's basically the only reason we are good in melee too, so it's not like its an unusual concept for orks.

This is it right here. We should be inaccurate as all hell, but our choices should be so cheap that we are good at shooting simply because we can bring 2 or 3x as many ranged weapons as our opponents.

You also hit the nail on the head with Close combat and the Ork faction as well, we ARE NOT good at CC. A S4 T4 2 attack base model with 5in movement and a 6+ save isn't scary at ALL. Literally nobody is scared of that, but when you put 90 of them on the table, then they become frightening, and that is how our shooting should be as well.

So everyone seems to agree that there is (at least) a problem with the point costing of orks ranged options. May the gods hear you.

I wonder because I've never tried it, is it still a problme when you play power point ? Seems that the fact you don't pay the points for equipment may atune the overpricing prob.

IronSlug wrote:
So everyone seems to agree that there is (at least) a problem with the point costing of orks ranged options. May the gods hear you.

I wonder because I've never tried it, is it still a problme when you play power point ? Seems that the fact you don't pay the points for equipment may atune the overpricing prob.

yup, orkz still suck using power levels instead of points. Our only good unit (Boyz) doesn't have any upgrades worth taking, not in the sense that its to expensive points wise, but in the sense that why would I give my Boyz 3 Big shootas/Rokkits when they take away from CC attacks and will likely do almost nothing in the game (3 Big shootas = 3 S5 hits, 2 wounds and against a 3+ save .66 dead Marines) (3 Rokkitz = 1 hit and 5/6th chance to wound with -2AP on a 3+ that is a 5/6th chance to wound).

Everything in our Codex is priced pretty atrociously and our upgrades, the few we actually have, barely do anything to help. There are no good shooting options, there are no good Mech options and there are no good Speed freak options, its basically 100% horde 100% of the time.

To tie that in with the original comment about Kustom Shoota, even if they were free they wouldn't make Nobz worth taking. They might make Nob bikers almost worth taking though, but still not overly worth the price nor the power level cost.

SemperMortis wrote:

IronSlug wrote:
So everyone seems to agree that there is (at least) a problem with the point costing of orks ranged options. May the gods hear you.

I wonder because I've never tried it, is it still a problme when you play power point ? Seems that the fact you don't pay the points for equipment may atune the overpricing prob.

yup, orkz still suck using power levels instead of points. Our only good unit (Boyz) doesn't have any upgrades worth taking, not in the sense that its to expensive points wise, but in the sense that why would I give my Boyz 3 Big shootas/Rokkits when they take away from CC attacks and will likely do almost nothing in the game (3 Big shootas = 3 S5 hits, 2 wounds and against a 3+ save .66 dead Marines) (3 Rokkitz = 1 hit and 5/6th chance to wound with -2AP on a 3+ that is a 5/6th chance to wound).

Everything in our Codex is priced pretty atrociously and our upgrades, the few we actually have, barely do anything to help. There are no good shooting options, there are no good Mech options and there are no good Speed freak options, its basically 100% horde 100% of the time.

To tie that in with the original comment about Kustom Shoota, even if they were free they wouldn't make Nobz worth taking. They might make Nob bikers almost worth taking though, but still not overly worth the price nor the power level cost.

Yeah Power level often just means I take upgrades because I'm paying for them anyway. PL doesn't help orks because many of our units don't have upgrades (Lootas) or upgrades worth taking (tankbustas). In fact Nobz are really the only squad that benefits from PL and it really just makes them super over equipped (all with killsaws, Skorchas and Ammo runts).

Nobz in general are really over priced in their own squad, especially given the expense of their upgrades. I continually look at taking them, but they essentially cost the same as 3 Ork boyz (prior to any upgrades) So from a durability standpoint you are looking at 2 T4 4+ wounds vs 3 T4 6+ wounds, so that is a slight edge to the Nob against damage 1 weapons with No AP (it takes on average 4 wounds to kill the nob, it takes 3.6 to kill the 3 boyz.) as soon as weapons have multiple damage or AP it swings hugely in the favor of the boyz (AP -1 means it takes 3 wounds to kill both the Nob and the Boyz). Offensively Boyz are far superior in shooting they are 3 shots vs 1 shot (with sluggas), and in the assault you are looking at 4 S5 attacks vs 9(or 12) S 4 attacks. Using the 9 attacks the boyz are better against every single target point for point. now Nobz can take close combat special weapons, but taking those means you aren't taking even more boyz (a big choppa nob = 4.33 boyz) big choppas against T8 multi wound models big choppa nobz are about equal to an equal number of points worth of boyz (assuming no bonus attacks for the boyz), Power klaw Nobz are better against T8 multi wound models than boyz.

Breng77 wrote:
Nobz in general are really over priced in their own squad, especially given the expense of their upgrades. I continually look at taking them, but they essentially cost the same as 3 Ork boyz (prior to any upgrades) So from a durability standpoint you are looking at 2 T4 4+ wounds vs 3 T4 6+ wounds, so that is a slight edge to the Nob against damage 1 weapons with No AP (it takes on average 4 wounds to kill the nob, it takes 3.6 to kill the 3 boyz.) as soon as weapons have multiple damage or AP it swings hugely in the favor of the boyz (AP -1 means it takes 3 wounds to kill both the Nob and the Boyz).

Don't forget the ammo runts. A full squad of nobz with runts is 210 points for 30 wounds, 20 of those with a 4+ save, a mob boyz is just 30 cheaper and provides 31 wounds with a 6+ save. Since you can just throw gretchin at the first ten multi-damage shots coming your way, the swing towards boyz is not huge at all. Thanks to that my nobz could easily walk through the shooting of a vindicator without loosing a single nob to multiple damage wounds.

Offensively Boyz are far superior in shooting they are 3 shots vs 1 shot (with sluggas),

Shootas are free on both, so it's 60 shots on boyz and 20 shots with 10 rerolls, which basically means 30 shots without loosing their choppa. Still not stellar, but better than you make it out to be. This is actually where the original questions of the threat was aimed, if the kustom shoota was less points, nobz could have comparable shooting to boyz. Or if any of their ranged weapons were priced fairly at all.

and in the assault you are looking at 4 S5 attacks vs 9(or 12) S 4 attacks. Using the 9 attacks the boyz are better against every single target point for point. now Nobz can take close combat special weapons, but taking those means you aren't taking even more boyz (a big choppa nob = 4.33 boyz) big choppas against T8 multi wound models big choppa nobz are about equal to an equal number of points worth of boyz (assuming no bonus attacks for the boyz), Power klaw Nobz are better against T8 multi wound models than boyz.

I don't think there is a point to taking pure choppa nobz. The strength of nobz squads is bringing two klaws (or killsaws!) or any number of big choppas/powa stabbas and actually being able to get the entire unit in combat each time. 30 boyz might outperform 10 nobz, but have you tried getting 30 boyz in contact into combat without rolling a lot more on your charge roll than you needed?

Before you start defending your math: No, nobz are not better than boyz. But they are not far behind - as long as you don't buy any upgrades besides the few good ones.

I would love to be able to take Kustom Shootas on significantly over priced Nob Bikers and not know from the start that the game was going to be a loss, it would be highly amusing to have that much dakka on such a fast platform, most would miss but it would be hilarious.