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 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

Your post reads as defensive, which I don't know if that is intentional or not. But you also throw in a great example of BS justification at the end, which is why I am quoting the statement above.

Repeat, "I just want an army cheaper than it normally costs." Don't go around assuming that because other humans have foibles it justifies a morally dubious decision to buy pirated toy soldiers. Just own your gak.


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 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

Ah, that's shame. By (I suspect, very deliberately) using "cheap" in lieu of any number of other less inflammatory descriptors, you've really ruined your chances of having sensible debate.

Besides, nobody has to "own it" because they're not beholden to you or anyone else, like I said.

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

Your post reads as defensive, which I don't know if that is intentional or not. But you also throw in a great example of BS justification at the end, which is why I am quoting the statement above.

Repeat, "I just want an army cheaper than it normally costs." Don't go around assuming that because other humans have foibles it justifies a morally dubious decision to buy pirated toy soldiers. Just own your gak.

I wasn't being defensive so much as defending what would be fairly obviously my position on the argument unless you'd jumped into the thread without reading it. I wasn't using other people's foibles as a justification for buying recasts, I don't need to justify it, I was merely outlining how people who are critical of those who do are likely fairly hypocritical because it's probable they're doing something elsewhere in their life that's equally morally "grey." It doesn't have to justify my behavior so much as cut the legs off of the high horse of anyone who seeks to somehow assume some moral authority over it.

But this discussion was over at "cheap" so I think we'll leave it there.

Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

Offer people a good service at a good price, and the piracy problem will just disappear, because 95% of the people is willing to pay an appropiate price if that way they can have a nice product with a nice service and evade all the moral issues of buying "pirated" products, plus, all of the problems with that kind of product. This is not about "Moral" or "Inmoral", just stop that gak. People don't work based in moral but in money.

Why should I spend hours looking for a subtitled version of Game of Thrones in a very very low quality when I can pay just 8€ a month and have hundreds of TV series presented for me in a very, very comfortable way.

Recast will die, the day that FW and GW lower their prices to a point that isn't profitable anymore and people isn't willing to have all the troubles from buying a recast just to save 5-7% of the total price. Maybe 1 in every 1000 will do that, but very few.

You can be all in the high moral horses that you want, but this is just a economic thing. In both ends. It isn't like GW and other business don't do shavy and very gray moral practices. Theres no hell, theres no heaven, we are all in earth to live by our principles.
I'll feed a street kitten for every recast that I bought so I can recover my nice karma, I promise.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

A variety of reasons!

The number one reason from my point of view would probably be publicity- the more of my work that's out there, the more likely people are to see it and want to purchase more.

The revenue from the cast miniatures is pretty low on a per-mini basis. I make more money out of prototypes, commissions and so forth (see above) and I feel it's worth it in the long run.

As anyone who wants to re cast my miniatures would have to purchase and cast the pieces themselves, they'd be putting in a fair bit of their own money. If it's for personal use, it doesn't bother me. If they can make better casts than the ones I can currently acquire, I'd be interested to see them!
And if they can produce them cheaper, I'd probably be even more interested

Casting can require a certain amount of time, skill and resources to get a quality result, so I'm always on the lookout for a good casting company

I hope that made some kind of sense

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Nothing, but I would prefer if people would be honest with their motivations instead of trying to hide them with BS. Just say, "I'm cheap and don't want to pay for an army I feel I deserve so I turn to recasting to lower costs." Just own it.

There have been other valid reasons in the past. The recast sites I've seen almost always accept paypal, which means that you didn't need a credit card. Wasn't a factor for me, but I could see people without a credit card (for whatever reason) turning to that before FW joined the 21st century.

Alternatively, it could be a discontinued model. Kinda hard to buy the legit one when they're not selling it.

Alternatively still, they might just be trying to save money. That really confuses me what with that we, for some reason, point at a corporation whenever they do something even vaguely shady, "bad", or anti-employee and say, "oh well, they have to do whatever they did because they HAVE to. They have an obligation to increase profit margins however they can", but then I see here that when we're talking about individuals, there becomes a function of morality present in the conversation. There are then values like "right" and "wrong" that are assigned to actions. I genuinely don't understand the difference. That could actually make me morally bereft or something. I don't know. Honestly, it's kinda probable, as I don't think I'd be that bothered by it even if someone did say I was.

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

I can't speak for him, but I recall at the height of the Napster hullabaloo, there was a small time rap group that said that they actually loved people pirating their stuff because it got them extra awareness as the label wasn't actively doing anything to help promote them. Sadly, I can't recall the time. Also the ska band Streetlight Manifesto got so pissed off at their record company that they boycotted themselves and asked their fans to not buy their album, hinting that they should go pirate it instead. Something along the lines of "we want you to hear it, but we don't care if we make any money off it, because Victory Records will probably just keep it all anyway."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it only really cuts you out of the revenue stream of the sales you would have made if someone had bought the product from you. But if it's unavailable due to payment restrictions, unavailable due to not being sold, or unavailable due to being more highly priced than a customer is able/willing to purchase it for, then the customer would never have bought it to begin with, so "lost sales" are sort of a magic unicorn number anyway.

The above post is a little more eloquent than what I managed

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

The ability to watch Game of Thrones whenever I want wherever I want stopped me from needing to download it to watch it. The fact that I can get any game on steam means I haven't had a pirate game since... gak... the early 2000's maybe?

That and any shows I do download I buy the Blu-Rays of anyway. *shrugs*

Galas is 100% correct. Come up with a service that is better than piracy, and it will flourish.

As it stands now I have bought pirated Kingdom Death, and would buy pirated GW, but not Reaper. Why? Because as it stands they are affordable and in my price range. If they get more expensive I might have to rethink things.

Well, not going to lie. I wish I could have found somebody that recasts Tallarn Roughriders... getting the 20 I needed unassembled and unpainted was one heck of an expensive ordeal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

The ability to watch Game of Thrones whenever I want wherever I want stopped me from needing to download it to watch it. The fact that I can get any game on steam means I haven't had a pirate game since... gak... the early 2000's maybe?

That and any shows I do download I buy the Blu-Rays of anyway. *shrugs*

Galas is 100% correct. Come up with a service that is better than piracy, and it will flourish.

Absolutely.
Man, we traded pirated copies of games and music back in school. These days, I only go through the hassle of pirating a game if it is heavily cut in Germany, e.g. Wolfenstein, CoD4, etc.
Everything else? Nah, I wait for the next Steam/GOG/Humblebundle/whatever sale if I'm unwilling to pay full price.

Every model available in a SC! box is not worth buying a recast of anymore. For the same or slightly higher price, you get plastic instead of resin. That's a win for GW.

I'm totally willing to pay reasonable prices, but some of GW/FW prices are just fethed.
A group of 3 Fimirs has the same price as the single model unit champion (for said unit) of Fimirs? Come on now.

OOP models are even worse. For some it might be a collector thing, others want a cool looking model. Marienburg Landship = you want it for your collection? Pay a horrendous price. Or the recast for 60 $. Chaos War Mammoth? I've seen it handled on Ebay for 1k €! Recast? 150 $.
This is no longer about hurting your hobby, it doesn't hurt GW/FW any longer. It's hurting the second hand market (if at all, because it would mean I would ever pay the collector prices).

 Galas wrote:
Do you know what killed videogame piracy? What killed music and movies piracy? Not anti piracy laws or technology, not DRM or other things that hurted more the actual legal buyers than the pirated ones.

Steam killed it. Spotify killed it. HBO, Netflix, killed piracy.

Offer people a good service at a good price, and the piracy problem will just disappear, because 95% of the people is willing to pay an appropiate price if that way they can have a nice product with a nice service and evade all the moral issues of buying "pirated" products, plus, all of the problems with that kind of product. This is not about "Moral" or "Inmoral", just stop that gak. People don't work based in moral but in money.

Why should I spend hours looking for a subtitled version of Game of Thrones in a very very low quality when I can pay just 8€ a month and have hundreds of TV series presented for me in a very, very comfortable way.

Recast will die, the day that FW and GW lower their prices to a point that isn't profitable anymore and people isn't willing to have all the troubles from buying a recast just to save 5-7% of the total price. Maybe 1 in every 1000 will do that, but very few.

You can be all in the high moral horses that you want, but this is just a economic thing. In both ends. It isn't like GW and other business don't do shavy and very gray moral practices. Theres no hell, theres no heaven, we are all in earth to live by our principles.
I'll feed a street kitten for every recast that I bought so I can recover my nice karma, I promise.

Anecdotal of course, But in my college years I was a pirate SO bad when it came to shows, I pirated everything.
Now, I have a job.....so I bought Netflix.....I bought Crunchy Roll, only reason I still Pirate GoT is because of how many hoops I have to go through to sign up.
And I can watch it all on my Ps4. Give people a simple, effective way to search for a show with a good service and you stop piracy. If free shipping was easier from Fw I would do it, if I could get it from the Game Store I would. if I didnt get the "California Tax" I would. as of right now, me going onto ebay, clicking "Buy now with Paypal" with free shipping is easier.

I can only speak for myself, and here are a few of my thoughts.

I started this hobby in 1997. Stopped around 2002 due to other commitments, cost and some personal issues that took the enjoyment out of modeling. I started back this year when I joined DakkaDakka. A break of 15 years.

Getting back into IG (my army before my hiatus) and the sheer amount of kits/models OOP that I want is huge. While I could buy them from eBay, I've got limited funds and the mark ups on some kits are beyond stupid. Add in that I would NEVER strip a well painted model means I will use a recaster. GW stopped selling them, so I wouldn't be able to pay them for the model anyway.
Secondly, cost. When I say limited funds, I mean REALLY TIGHTLY LIMITED. I would love a FW model as a centre piece. But, the cheapest FW model I want would take me THREE MONTHS to save up for. If a remaster can save me even 30%, I'd take it. Because some FW prices are mind boggling out of touch. Sensible prices would attract far more attention than pretty miniatures.

Galas is right - correct service at correct price = decline of recasting services.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I can only speak for myself, and here are a few of my thoughts.

I started this hobby in 1997. Stopped around 2002 due to other commitments, cost and some personal issues that took the enjoyment out of modeling. I started back this year when I joined DakkaDakka. A break of 15 years.

Getting back into IG (my army before my hiatus) and the sheer amount of kits/models OOP that I want is huge. While I could buy them from eBay, I've got limited funds and the mark ups on some kits are beyond stupid. Add in that I would NEVER strip a well painted model means I will use a recaster. GW stopped selling them, so I wouldn't be able to pay them for the model anyway.
Secondly, cost. When I say limited funds, I mean REALLY TIGHTLY LIMITED. I would love a FW model as a centre piece. But, the cheapest FW model I want would take me THREE MONTHS to save up for. If a remaster can save me even 30%, I'd take it. Because some FW prices are mind boggling out of touch. Sensible prices would attract far more attention than pretty miniatures.

Galas is right - correct service at correct price = decline of recasting services.

So, we're back to the overwhelming sense of entitlement pirates seem to have in abundance. I want it, and don't want to pay the price cause it's just so unfair that someone else decides what their work is worth. The arrogance is astounding. Your options are buy it, or don't if you don't think the price is good. Not I like it, but the price is too high, so I'll just steal it by paying someone else to rip it off. We're not talking a necessity of life here to you - you do not need any toy soldiers to live. Tell the guy pouring resin at Forge World to feed his family piracy is okay because they're a big company, and they won't miss it.

It's literally pennies worth of resin. Selling even two models at their current price is enough to pay for the sculptors time unless they are running a money laundering racket. But Forge World have cottoned on that this hobby has a rabid and less than intelligent fanbase (on average) who are willing to pay out the nose for said pennies of resin.

Please can some Mod lock this up, it's just turned into the usual pattern of every recast thread before

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Please can some Mod lock this up, it's just turned into the usual pattern of every recast thread before

Seconded

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

More on track to the OP: There is virtually nothing that you can do to spot a recast so long as it is made in the same material as the original. A really good recaster often makes better quality product than that distributed by the IP owner. I've had people I've sold legit forgeworld to on ebay complain that it has to be from China due to mold lines or suchlike and try to return it, only to be somewhat embarassedly put off by my screencapping the actual order number and baggie it came in.

What I wonder is how many people who bought recast FW minis ended up buying attendant forces in plastic because they were excited to finish the army they started. I've known a lot of gamers who lost interest after a single box of marines or Orks, but who later went on to huge projects when they had a show stopping centerpiece to keep them motivated. I'm not saying buying recasts is a moral right, but I wonder if cheap access to the priciest unit in an army actually keeps a portion of the customer base engaged and spending far longer than they would without that access.


For the record, I have never bought a recast, although I did acquire two as incidentals in large trades.

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

Medge sells for prices low enough that recasting is not likely to be profitable. However, if someone did find a way to make a profit on MEdge products for mere pennies, I expect that MEdge would hire that person to bring their production costs down. They seem to be price conscious as a company.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Recasting has been around since the 90s, of it was going to cause significant issues for the industry, it would have happened already .

In the 90's you didn't have recast Warlord Titans. Recasts where also often very poor quality.

What it would be like to have yourr IP recast, and undercut just because people desire the product?

BobtheInquisitor wrote:What I wonder is how many people who bought recast FW minis ended up buying attendant forces in plastic because they were excited to finish the army they started. I've known a lot of gamers who lost interest after a single box of marines or Orks, but who later went on to huge projects when they had a show stopping centerpiece to keep them motivated. I'm not saying buying recasts is a moral right, but I wonder if cheap access to the priciest unit in an army actually keeps a portion of the customer base engaged and spending far longer than they would without that access.


For the record, I have never bought a recast, although I did acquire two as incidentals in large trades.

I certainly resemble that comment. One of the unexpected results of working with recast models is I've found myself much more willing to take risks and experiment on them than I ever would've with an original. As a consequence I've spent more in genuine bits, kits, third party mods and modeling materials than I ever would I find I'd bought the kit at full price. The main recasters also offer bits that rival GW of old (well, not quite, but it certainly feels that way nowadays) meaning I can model units as I envision them.

Which is not to say that the savings don't inherently act as a significant draw, I'm firmly in the camp of simply couldn't buy full price even if I felt I could justify it (which is something that varies on a model by model basis) but I'm not sure that the freedom offered by the affordability and accessibility of bits and kits hasn't, over time, become as or more significant. And while I'm maybe spending cash on recast models, you're dead right that it's also generating sales in other legitimate parts of the hobby from me as a consequence.

Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 RedSarge wrote:
I'm actually quite surprised at how man Dakka members are very 'hand wavey' about recasts. Recasts erode OUR niche industry and ultimately hurt the people behi d these models we love to purchase, paint and collect. I guess I'm just an old fashioned person who respects IP.

You can't be that old fashioned on it. I'm literally spending my afternoon right now researching tussles back in the mid-nineteenth century over ip protection, and you'd be surprised how many famous British engineers and inventors (Lord Armstrong, or Isambard Brunel, for example), thought the entire thing was a load of hokey which stifled creativity, business, and enabled all kinds of morally undesirable activities (patent squatting and monopolies for example). It's only the last hundred or so years in the Western world specifically that the 'morality' of it has come to be seen as undisputable. Go to China, and most people there would laugh at you for insisting it was theft or even morally reprehensible.

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

That's an interesting, but purely hypothetical, question, as pretty much everyone I've encountered feels it's a dick move to do that to smaller manufacturers. Neither is there likely sufficient demand for those models to warrant the time and money for the recaster to add them to their inventories. GW and certain boutique manufacturers fall in the crosshairs because, I assume, there's sufficient disparity between RRP and perceived value (or availability) that a vacuum formed which the supply of recasts has expended to fill. GW's PR problems over the last few years have undoubtedly fed that as well. As many have already said, if your consumers feel the price you're asking is reasonable and aren't frustrated because they can't buy it the evidence suggests piracy goes away. Companies who are maintaining a good relationship with their consumers and are offering their product at a price most feel is reasonable have little to fear from piracy in this or any other industry.


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 RedSarge wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Recasting has been around since the 90s, of it was going to cause significant issues for the industry, it would have happened already .

In the 90's you didn't have recast Warlord Titans. Recasts where also often very poor quality.

So were a lot of legitimate models! But it would have been odd to have recast Warlords 20 years before they were made. Not sure what your point isn't with that, of course models that didn't exist weren't being recast?

What it would be like to have yourr IP recast, and undercut just because people desire the product?

If I was posting record profits, had returned to growth in a very short period of time after multiple periods of contraction and had my share price at an all time high, I'm pretty sure I'd get to sleep most nights.

@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

I'm not sure I understood all that; is there any chance you could re-phrase?
(not being sarcastic or anything- I'm actually interested in peoples views on this issue)

I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

 RedSarge wrote:
@Azreal13 : What I'm saying is the recasters, particularly in China. There exists channels that allow legitimate models to be sent in, SCANNED and recast with un-erring accuracy, dispatched in copy cat plastic bags with disturbing quantity. This is full scale piracy outside of a factory as a side or direct income. This 'health resin used is toxic. But, I can see you dislike GW as a company and there subsidiaries, so I cannot sway your opinion that there products are not worth direct purchases.

No, it would be silly for me to dislike a company, just as it would be daft for me to bear a grudge against a table lamp. I've found many of their decisions as a business puzzling, even infuriating, but that isn't the same thing. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like Kirby if I met him, but that's not the same.

But that's frequently the issue, people getting emotional on behalf of an entity that's explicitly been grown as a cash making mechanism.

But recasts aren't sent in copy cat bags, at least from the top 3 or 4 names I've dealt with. I've occasionally received a kit in what was obviously a left over FW bag, but never one obviously intended to deceive, they were scuffed to feth and had code numbers written all over them. Neither is the resin any more toxic than FW (seriously, a Dakka user went to the trouble of getting it lab tested.)

I'm not sure where you get your information from, but based on first hand experience it's hopelessly inaccurate, even down to the notion of the scale. One guy can't add any new lines because he can't accommodate it, one guy is a school teacher, another guy does it in his garage at weekends and the two "professional" ones are such small scale enterprises that they all but disappear if there's even a small spike in demand because they can't keep up with communications and orders simultaneously.

It really isn't the great stalking beast waiting to take GW down that you seem to think it is.


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 RedSarge wrote:
I've been meaning to do an in depth exposure on recasting for some time on my blog. I've been away from the hobby for some time now and as a result my priorities have changed. Be sure the recasting of expensive models is s lucrative and persistent business

I don't think anyone is thinking otherwise, why else would it be happening?

But seriously, your information seems waaay off from my experience from multiple sources over multiple platforms across several years, so I'd do a hell of a lot more research before I wrote that blog.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

In that case, would you have a particular problem if Maelstroms Edge for instance was being recasted and sold for pennies in comparison to the original?

I don't believe I've stated any kind of opinion on the matter in this thread and I don't intend to. Simply pointing out that being 'old fashioned' on the subject, is in fact, what the recasters are. So to speak.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
So essentially it then becomes a moral decision, and that's something they only need justify to themself, not to some random on the internet who has a different line in the sand, but very likely has some other dissonant line of thinking going on elsewhere in their lives of equal or greater degree.

I wasn't being defensive so much as defending what would be fairly obviously my position on the argument unless you'd jumped into the thread without reading it. I wasn't using other people's foibles as a justification for buying recasts, I don't need to justify it, I was merely outlining how people who are critical of those who do are likely fairly hypocritical because it's probable they're doing something elsewhere in their life that's equally morally "grey." It doesn't have to justify my behavior so much as cut the legs off of the high horse of anyone who seeks to somehow assume some moral authority over it.

But this discussion was over at "cheap" so I think we'll leave it there.

So my using the word "cheap" is a deal breaker but you can make a generalization relying on whattaboutism as a means to attack the other side? Oh, and you can't even give examples of what these "probable" misdeeds are, you just assume they are occurring in others as a way to justify what ultimately becomes a selfish drive to get something for cheaper than it normally costs. Forgive me if I find your outrage a bit disingenuous, especially considering your antagonistic tone throughout the thread, including calling for an imminent lock on page 2.

And again, "cutting the legs off the high horse" is such ridiculous speech, and is indicative to me that you feel what you are doing is "wrong" even if you want to try and argue that it isn't. I'd be more convinced by your convictions, and the convictions of others arguing your side of the position, if you all just owned it. Just say you want to save money. Don't argue that prices are too high, don't argue that this is a legal grey area, don't argue anything other than you want to avoid paying full retail price, or collectors prices, for models you feel entitled to. Because that is what it is. Entitlement. These being luxury items no one needs them, or is owed them. We just want them.

It's the pretzel twisting to justify what amounts to "I want this model but don't want to pay what it really costs" which I find so absurd in these discussions. As humans we all are selfish little gaks one way or another, but again, don't dress up the selfish motivations to try and obfuscate your actions. Just be honest.

 B Stores wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
What of it?

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 B Stores wrote:
As a separate aside, if anyone would like to pirate and re-cast any of my works, go right ahead

Legit question. Why?

Why would you want people re-casting your work and cutting you out of the revenue stream?

A variety of reasons!

The number one reason from my point of view would probably be publicity- the more of my work that's out there, the more likely people are to see it and want to purchase more.

The revenue from the cast miniatures is pretty low on a per-mini basis. I make more money out of prototypes, commissions and so forth (see above) and I feel it's worth it in the long run.

As anyone who wants to re cast my miniatures would have to purchase and cast the pieces themselves, they'd be putting in a fair bit of their own money. If it's for personal use, it doesn't bother me. If they can make better casts than the ones I can currently acquire, I'd be interested to see them!
And if they can produce them cheaper, I'd probably be even more interested

Casting can require a certain amount of time, skill and resources to get a quality result, so I'm always on the lookout for a good casting company

I hope that made some kind of sense

I definitely understand the publicity aspect. Treating your work as "samples" of your abilities does make business sense.

But where I don't follow is the idea that a caster who is producing better quality versions of your casts is beneficial to you when that caster is selling your items without your consent or any sort of business arrangement. Are you suggesting you would be interested in striking up a business deal with them? When I think of illegal casting operations of the kind in China churning out GW and FW stuff, I don't really see them being open to partnering with an artist who they would have to give a percentage of their earnings to. They are pirating models for a reason i.e. low overhead.

And why would you want to get into business with an individual or organization that used an illegal means (grey or otherwise) to demonstrate their abilities? If they are casting and selling your models without your consent, what else might they be capable of? It doesn't seem like a good foundation to build a business relationship on.

@Azreal13: There are recasters that will send the models in Forgeworld bags to avoid counterfeit seizures. I have more than enough information thanks. Supporting what others have said, the entitlement recast supporters feel is an obvious thorn. These products are not required to exist, it is just 'need and 'want' and 'greed' that supports this piracy. I do not see the need to continue to support my point in this thread.

Well it's obviously against Dakka rules to name recasters publicly, but feel free to just give me an initial(s) and I'll know who you mean, there's only a handful in operation.