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Wound/Toughness revision to match point value of units  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot

I suppose it is my fault for bringing up the guardsmen to marines comparison.

As far as stat value/weight goes, it really doesn't matter whether a certain mission has higher terrain count, has special rules, etc. Certain units have better performance because how they interact on the board & terrain, and how the special rules of the subset mission rules affects the particular units and not how it makes certain characteristic more valuable than other.

In general the stat values are roughly

M > BS > T > Sv > W > A > WS > S > Ld where:

1. M - No other stats can come into play if you're not in range. Alternatively, used to block LOS to deny effectiveness of opponent's turn.
2. BS - linearly scaling stat that determines how well you allocate ranged wounds in a game that's predominantly shooting. Higher priority than rest because it is the first stat used (after M) before any other stats come into play.
3. T - exponentially scaling stat that determines effectiveness of ranged/melee weapons. Higher priority than Sv because sufficiently high T negates the need to even take a saving throw.
4. Sv - linearly scaling stat that determines how well you resist the damage. Higher than W because of multi damage weapons.
5. W - determines how many times you can fail the Sv roll step. Below T and Sv because it only comes into play once the two are resolved and failed.
6. A - multiplicative stat that scales WS.
7. WS - linearly scaling stat that only comes into play in fight phase. Less than BS because the game is currently shooting heavy.
8. S - exponentially scaling stat that only comes into play in fight phase. Less than BS because the game is currently shooting heavy.
9. Ld - Least important because it takes place at the end of player turn. Last used stat in a turn, only comes into play if the opponent was insufficient in wiping the squad.

Do you feel otherwise?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/06 23:57:35

Made in us
Fixture of Dakka

Falls Church, VA


1) M is useless if you're in a closed ruin without the Infantry keyword, is more useful if you have Fly, and is also fairly useful if you're Infantry. Conversely, it's important for weapon ranges (as you note) but also denying enemy non-infantry cover bonuses, opening or closing charge lanes, and scoring objectives when necessary.

2) BS is only used if you have LOS, except for some weapons, and cannot be used on a unit that is in combat or just fell back from close combat, unless it has the Fly keyword or another special rule. Its utility for 90% of units depends on the M stat, as you mention, but also the CC stat - a monster shooting unit that is also a monster CC unit is better than a monster shooting unit period. The ability to fight one's way out of close combat without falling back makes this stat better, therefore it benefits from the other CC stats. Conversely, this stat is relatively useless if you are trapped in a cycle of combat and falling back for most units, so again, close combat ability affects this stat almost as much as movement does.

3) T is compared to the enemy's strength, and is of utility against every weapon type the enemy has - however, its relationship to save is more complicated than you let on. A unit with a low toughness (say, 1) with an un-modifiable 2+ save is tougher than a unit with a high toughness (say, 5) with no saves available ever. The relationship between save and toughness is similar to the relationship between strength and AP - having both high is much better than having one or the other high, and is considerably better than having both low.

4) Sv is about as important as toughness. The difference is that in Toughness, a +1/-1 may or may not affect the enemy's roll, while a +1/-1 save always has an effect on the enemy's durability, except in cases where there is a special rule (e.g. the Armageddon Steel Legion vehicle doctrine or the Lucius forge world doctrine).

5) Wounds is arguably just as important as Str. and T, depending on what weapons are being fired. A Baneblade with 1 wound is RIDICULOUSLY less durable than a Baneblade with 26 (its current) wounds, even if you double the toughness and increase the save to a 2+.

6) Attacks does not scale with WS. It's conceivable to have a monstrous combat unit that is scary because of high attacks rather than high WS - e.g. a Baneblade is actually fairly scary in combat because it has a high Attacks (9), high Strength (9), high AP (-2), and middling damage (d3) even though it is only WS5+. Conversely, it is conceivable to have a high WS but not be very good at combat.

7) WS: The same as BS and is only "less important" because of the assertion that the game is shooting heavy. The game is only as shooting heavy as the players allow it to be with terrain placement, scenario design, board size, and other important factors (e.g. what armies they've chosen to play).

8) Str: depends heavily on the movement, WS, and Attacks stat to be relevant. Could be made more important, but it is currently subordinate to the Movement stat, especially. However, it is conceivable to have a unit with monstrous strength (e.g. an Imperial Knight's reaper chainsword) with middling attacks - depending on the target, this is very important. It's why units like Knights often choose between a str: user and str:x2 weapon.

9) LD has the opportunity to be the most destructive stat. A LD 0 unit suffers D6+ total casualties as additional casualties every turn, more than doubling the damage that the unit suffers. A LD10, unit conversely, has to lose at least half it's number before suffering any casualties at all.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot

I agree with most of your points. However, these are strategies to make certain characteristic less effective, and not necessarily less important.

Note the S characteristic only refers to the S of the unit, not the weapon. This is because weapons, ranged or melee, are S modifiers and not innate characteristics of the units.

As you know, the game now comprises of 6 phases:
Movement > Psychic > Shooting > Charging > Fighting > Morale

We will exclude Psychic phase as it operates in its own mechanics and stats. Of the remaining 5 phases, [Movement], [Shooting], and [Fighting] actively utilizes the model's given [Characteristics]. Charging utilizes flat 2d6 for charging distance, irrelevant to the the [Characteristics] of the unit/model, and overwatch happens on flat roll of 6 with modifiers. [Morale] phase also utilizes [Characteristics], but this is a unit value as opposed to model value, with the exceptions for single model units.

Having said, the my argument is that the value/weight of characteristics are ultimately determinant upon the order of operations. To put it in a different perspective, lets look at the values from least to most important

9. Ld - POTENTIALLY most destructive, but it doesn't come into play if (in the order of operations): 1. enemy couldn't get in range, 2. enemy failed to hit in shooting phase, 3. enemy failed to wound in shooting phase, 4. you made the save in shooting phase, 5. your model didn't get removed in shooting phase, 6-7. enemy failed to hit in fight phase, 8. enemy failed to wound in fight phase, 9. you made the save in the fight phase.

8. S - only comes into play in fight phase, which doesn't come into play if: 1. you couldn't get into charge range, 2-5. you have models within charge range after resolving steps 2-5, 6-7. you passed to hit rolls.

6-7. A/WS - A is the stat that multiplies you chances to successfully hit with your WS. These two stats don't come into play if: 1. you couldn't get into charge range, 2-5. you don't have models within charge range after resolving shooting steps 2-5.

5. W - utilized when: 1. enemy units got in range to shoot, 2. enemy successfully hit, 3. enemy successfully wound, 4. you failed your saving throw

etc etc.

While I agree with you on the point that the stats are intermingled with each other in a more complex sense than I have laid out. However, you have to recognize that there is a sequence of dependencies of stats.

Melee stats become worthless if all of the eligible targets have been removed from play. Obviously, you can purposely not wipe the squad so you can charge at them.
As for the comments on regarding T & Sv relationship, arguably T1 w/ 2+Sv does have slightly better performance comparable to T8 w/ 0Sv (.1388 vs .1667, respectively) because of natural 1's auto fail. Otherwise, T only has a few mechanics that can decrease it while Sv's are modified on every possible level.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/07 23:10:14

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