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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Number me among those whose not happy that Masrines chapter tactics is so much more limiting then everyone else's.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Number me among those whose not happy that Masrines chapter tactics is so much more limiting then everyone else's.

That and inconsistent.

Like, how do Raven Guard Dreads just act sneakier than other vehicles?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Interestingly, Imperial Guard Leman Russes get Objective Secured in Spearhead detachments but other people do not. Is there a worry that Predators don't have that?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interestingly, Imperial Guard Leman Russes get Objective Secured in Spearhead detachments but other people do not. Is there a worry that Predators don't have that?

Objective Secured is mostly a non-rule. There's a few situations where I'm glad the unit has it and it works out (Infantry and Conscripts, Dire Avengers, Intercessors, etc) but for the most part it's easy to ignore. If you want a unit dead, you'll get rid of it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interestingly, Imperial Guard Leman Russes get Objective Secured in Spearhead detachments but other people do not. Is there a worry that Predators don't have that?


not really as space marines running armored detachments are pretty rare. but it is a good example of how GW seems to be rewarding flexability for everyone else and essentially forcing marine players to use infantry and dreads as the core of their force.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




bananathug wrote:

I think this is the place where Martel and I are talking past each other. I think the ability to move and shoot should be something that units have to pay a premium for. Especially with the abundance of -1 to hits out there -2 skews the points per wound calculation so much that you're better off just not including any heavy weapons that have to move and shoot because they perform so much worse than any other weapon available to you. I'm not sure I could put a number on how valuable that is and it would have different values for different units (value on a unit with no-los shooting probably nothing, short range weapons more valuable, 48" weapons not sure)

Up until 8th edition, it used to be the case that virtually all Aeldari units could move a fire heavy weapons without penalty, in a time when moving heavy weapons either hit 6s (6th & 7th) or could not fire at all (5th and earlier). Now we're in a time when "can't shoot heavy weapons" is now "shoot heavy weapons at -1", every Aeldari unit except Dark Reapers and the Wraithknight suffers that penalty. In that respect, the line between the factions with predominantly mobile or static firepower has never been more blurry than it is now. Shuriken Cannons, Lasblasters, and Avenger Shuriken Catapults are the only relevant Craftworlds assault weapons with a range greater than 12". (Incidentally, there are no Aeldari Rapid Fire weapons because they are supposed to move constantly.) I say "relevant" because the Fikepike is pointless and then Heavy Wraithcannons on are on a 500+ pts Wraithknight that's currently on the struggle bus. The aircraft weapons are such they hit on 3+ before modifiers while moving, but they must move, and it's typical for gunships of all factions to hit using the same BS while moving as their ground units do while stationary.

What Aeldari get in return for having relatively little long range firepower and squishy infantry/bikes is +1"/+2" movement (yay?), firing assault weapons on full BS when Advancing with most non-vehicles units (yay), and Webway Strike (yay!). Just so we're clear, I understand that "squishy" is not as strong a word as it used to be, since the differences between T3/T4 and 4+/3+ under 8th edition are not as large as they used to be (although still substantial).

The more I think about it, the more I think Dark Reapers don't need a points increase. A better fix is to just cap their max unit size at 5 models (like they used to be!), which would remove their disproportionate benefit from Guide, Forewarned, Soulburst, and Webway Strike. You could still load up a Wave Serpents with multiple squads of Reapers to protect them turn one, but as has already been mentioned, that prevents first turn Forewarned, and in any case Forewarned would only involve a maximum of 5 Dark Reapers firing at a deep striking squad. I mean, people were using them specifically for Guide and (especially) Soulburst before the points reduction, and it was that synergy that made Dark Reapers abusive, not then realised themselves. The Soulburst nerf was a step in the right direction, but the Reapers need a lower model cap to complete the solution. I just said as much to GW in an email, along with a recommendation to increase the cost of the Tempest Launcher by 15pts and reduce the cost of the Aeldari Missile Launcher by 5pts. I also recommended reducing the cost of the Imperium Missile Launchers by 7pts because Frag is worse than Starburst.


Also, before I forget, Devastators can actually do quite well; the following list had a 3rd place finish, fielding 20 Devastators in 4 Assbacks alongside 2 Stormravens.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/3rd-Overall-Mikael-Ek-Westeros-V-2017.pdf

bananathug wrote:

Most ITC tournaments have adopted a similar set of terrain: https://novaopen.sharepoint.com/:w:/r/_layouts/15/WopiFrame.aspx?guestaccesstoken=numqdmghJq7vVQ9x3uYbgsU5M4zsCkqniJGdDH5ftSE%3d&docid=0b790d7fdb5004a42ae1980f6f0e2db7e&action=view
Usually mirrored setup with a 3 story LOS blocking piece in the middle, some cover 12" from the middle of the 60" side and 12" from the middle of the 48" side, LOS blocking + cover in two corners and los blocking in the other two corners leaving a couple of firing lanes.

Before I continue, I want you to take a look at two pictures showing different tables at the 2015 Nova Open, both of which fit the terrain guidelines in the current tournament document.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/unnamed-2.jpg
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/unnamed-3.jpg
http://www.feedyournerd.com/uploads/2/4/0/4/24044140/3152399_orig.jpg

This is a nice set of images because 1) it shows examples of terrain that fit the definitions in the Nova tournament document, and 2) it shows that plateau hills that block vehicle LOS get used with L-shaped central LOS blockers, while ramped hills that might block only infantry LOS get used with square central LOS blockers.

bananathug wrote:

A blob of 4 predators will have the ability to hit about 20% of the board.

I don't know where you're getting the 20% estimate. If you were to place a Predator almost anywhere on any of the tables I linked, it would be able to shoot targets on roughly 40% the table. If you were to place 4 Predators up to 6" apart, you could cover 70% of each of those tables. By turn 2, you can have one Predator's nose past the far edge of the central terrain pieces, while still being within 6" of a Predator with its rear hull still one the near side of the central terrain pieces, allowing you to cover 90% of the board. Again, these 2015 tables matches the criteria of the current Nova document, so two years hasn't made much difference.

bananathug wrote:

Then will get assaulted (da jump, warp time, alpha legioned) or out of LOS'd or fire and faded or attacked form beyond 48" or crimson huntered or deep struck or one of the other baziillion ways to neutralize 2 t7 12w 3+ models in one turn of shooting/assault and 800 points of models because affording 4 predators and chaff and anti-infantry just isn't in the cards. Much harder for enemies to neutralize 750 points of reapers (3x9) when they can be spread out so one assaulting unit can't consolidate into all of them at once.

I'll try to address each of the specific concerns you just mentioned. Honestly, though, the first half of that paragraph comes across as you not wanting your opponents to be able to do anything ever, as if playing the game is only for you. I also don't understand why you think that 1200pts is insufficient to provide decent protection for 800pts of tanks or contain sufficient anti-infantry firepower. However, your point about the need to kill/neutralize only two predators is valid, and part of the solution might be to add more Predators (probably not Lascannons, though)!

Assault (and reinforcement deployment in general)
Forgive me for being an ignorant Aeldari player, but...DOES NOBODY USE SCOUTS???. Scouts completely counter Da Jump, Alpha Legion Forward Operatives, Webway Strike, and pretty much any other deep strike/infiltration shenanigans because they set up during deployment. Sure, your opponent will probably shoot them, but so what? They've already saved you a turn of getting jumped on. Scouts are cheap, too, if you take the advice In gave earlier in this thread and just run them either Boltguns (or maybe Astartes Shotguns). If I had any Space Marines, each of my lists would have 2-4 little Scout Squads. Also, note that the 3rd place list I linked above has 3 units of Scouts to provide a buffer zone for other units. Another huge benefit to having a bunch of Scouts is that you can counter deploy your opponent by placing at least some of the Scouts first, then deploy your firepower units to maximize their safety and/or giving them decent firing lanes.

However, Scouts don't stop Warp Time, Quick Time, etc., so you may want to bubble wrap. You're right, Marines don't really have "chaff" as such, but the good news is that any bubble wrap units you take will actually make meaningful contributions on their own. Tactical Squads are fine for that purpose, especially if they're Ultramarines. If you were really paranoid about swarms of Gaunts or something, you could load up on flamers too, but the usual plasma is probably fine.

An adjunct/alternative to bubble wrap are counter-assault units. They don't necessarily have to be the most powerful assault units, they just need to be able to step in and hold down an enemy squad while the tank escapes. Earlier in this thread I was comparing a Dreadnought w/DCCW, Stormbolter, and Assault Cannon to a Wraithlord w/Ghostglaive, 2 Shuriken Catapults, 2 Shuriken Cannons as a fairly cheap and flexible distraction unit.

My main issue with your claim, though, is you're insisting that it's easy to charge multiple tanks in assault when those tanks are 5-6" apart. It's not.

"out of LOS'd or fire and faded"
Fire and Fade works on one squad, and if you use Scouts the only Aeldari infantry that can do decent damage at long range are Dark Reapers. It takes just over a dozen Dark Reapers, on average, to kill a Predator in one turn, but 14 Reapers is a more reasonable number to make it somewhat reliable. Now we're talking about 2 squads, though, and Fire and Fade won't work on both. "But...Lightning Reflexes!" Look, if you're forcing them burn 3 CP per turn to protect a couple of glass cannons squads, those tricks dry up in a hurry.

Let's talk about weapons that don't need LOS, specifically in the context of shooting Predators. Mortars are alright at 56.57 PPW because they're still roughly 2pts too cheap, but they have a HUGE footprint, so they no longer qualify as "out of LOS" and they die to harsh language in the open. Assuming no Heavy Bolters because it's hiding, a Manticore pays 45.96 PPW vs. T7 3+, which is good. Basilisks are slightly more efficient, paying 43.20 PPW, and not counting doctrines; their lower cost also makes them tougher per point than than the Manticore, and their weapon wounds more targets more easily. D-Cannons pay 42.19 PPW, but they're only 24" range. Hive Guard w/Impaler Cannons are also good, paying 40.50 PPW with 36" range, and you can spend 2CP for annextra volley.

There might be another good non-LOS option somewhere, but we're really down to Basilisks and Hive Guard being the most effective and annoying. Neither of them beats the direct fire potential of Linked Fire Prisms, Crimson Hunters, and Killshot Predators, all of which are mobile (more on that later).

"or attacked from beyond 48" or crimson huntered"
Since you mentioned range separately, I'm going to assume that you mean direct fire weapons here, but the Basilisk is probably the best tank buster outside 48" other than Linked Fire Prisms in the 48-60" bracket. It's difficult to take this complaint seriously because 1) the table is 72" x 48", and 2) you grossly overestimated the effect that the Nova LOS blocking terrain. If anything, you're complaining about alpha strike (no argument from me), but you're conveniently omitting then fact that the Killshot Predators are fantastic at alpha strike.

Similarly, the Crimson Hunter is, indeed, an efficient vehicle killer; I certainly hope so, since that's it's primary function! It's also nearly impossible to hide, so we're back to an alpha strike complaint based on the double standard that it's not OK only if it happens to you. Alpha strikes are 40k's biggest problem, and always have been, but while they're here we should be planning around them. The trick to dealing with, for example, an Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Air Wing is begin by splitting fire to draw out the Lightning Reflexes, then focus on the other targets. If your opponent doesn't play Lightning Reflexes, keep splitting fire and enjoy hitting on -2 instead of -3. Of course, that's assuming that you don't have more effective use of your firepower; always choose your targets such that you are improving your efficiency vs. your opponent over subsequent turns as much as possible. If you are under threat from two targets that do comparable damage per point (e.g. Crimson Hunters and Fire Prisms) but one is easier per point to kill (Fire Prisms), that's the one you target first.

bananathug wrote:

So movement is not only valuable for combating the IG out of LOS weapons, keeping your units safe v. turn 1 alpha and executing proper target selection, but most tournaments are adopting ITC rules which place a premium on objective control and board control so being to move to quarters control and objective control is vital to scoring enough points to compete in these events.

I admit that analyzing GW points/opness with an eye for ITC events which have extra rules not required for basic 40k and which a lot of players don't deal with is probably a personal crusade and outside of the generalized nature of this discussion so take it with a grain of salt (no a lot of salt because it makes me quite salty).

It's OK to be salty, but keep the salt out of your eyes; it hampers objective scrutiny.

I haven't addressed your concerns about movement yet, and now is probably the best time to do so. First, remember these numbers:

Dark Reapers - 30.38 PPW
Fire Prism (Linked, Focused) - 26.89 PPW (static), 31.87 PPW (mobile)
Predator (Killshot) w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons - 22.80 PPW (static), 30.40 PPW (mobile)

Now consider what "mobile" actually means in this context. Dark Reapers move 6", the slowest unit in this list (and the slowest Aeldari unit other than 5" Wraithguard/Wraithblades). If the Linked Fire Prisms move over 8", their firepower gets cut in half. Killshot Predators moving 12", on the other hand, are still more efficient than Fire Prisms moving 8". Killshot Predators are also the more efficient of the two tanks when both are stationary, and they're much more efficient when stationary compared to Dark Reapers. Dark Reapers are also squishy compared to either tank, even with the Alaitoc attribute, and Lightnings Reflexes can be played around. If you're still sour about Inescapable Accuracy, remember that the Predator numbers above don't reflect free buffs from, say, the Salamanders CT; it won't make up the difference completely, but all things considered the Predators are probably still a better unit overall than Dark Reapers.

Speaking of Salamanders, I wanted to post a list showing how you might be able to use bring everything I've been talking about to the tabletop. It's just a pair of identical 1000pts Battalions, and hopefully Battlescribe didn't betray me on the points costs.

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Warlord: Storm of Fire)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Teeth of Terra)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter

2000pts
9CP

The Tactical Squads probably get split in most games, with one plasma weapon in each to take advantage of the Salamanders CT . The list is deliberately trying to finish deploying last, dropping 12 units before the first Predator hits the table. Scouts ward off deep strike and infiltration, grab an early objective of two, and take pot shots with their Boltguns. I've written a lot about the Lascannon Predators with Killshot, so I won't say more here, but the addition of the two Autocannon Predators makes the list much more resilient to losing Killshot threshold, while also contributing mobility and shot volume. Meanwhile, the Captains and Lieutenants buff everything while enjoying the Salamanders CT with their Combi-plasma. I find it amusing that this Salamander list has neither meltas not flamers.

Thoughts?

@Bananathug, I'm going to address your feedback about my proposed changes to the Craftworld attributes, as well as Shining Spears, in another post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 14:46:11


 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




That Predator list has a terrifying lack of hoard firepower for 2,000 points.
Particularly once the other guy has gone first and tidied up the scouts and maybe some of the tacticals.
Sure I wouldn't want to run a Baneblade or a Knight into it, but...

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




AdmiralHalsey wrote:
That Predator list has a terrifying lack of hoard firepower for 2,000 points.
Particularly once the other guy has gone first and tidied up the scouts and maybe some of the tacticals.
Sure I wouldn't want to run a Baneblade or a Knight into it, but...

I have no idea where you got that impression. Other than 16 Lascannons and 6 Hunter-killer Missiles, the entire list has effective rate of fire, and almost all other non-Scout units will be re-rolling some combination of 1s to hit and wound (not to mention the Salamanders CT stacking to help with 2s, etc). In the games when you're not as worried about enemy reinforcements, at least some of the Scouts are likely to hang back to get buffed too.

Also, what's with the constant "what if your opponent gets first turn?" complaining around here, anyway? It happens roughly half the time, so you might as well get used to it. Granted, it happens slightly more often with this list, but I have already explained some ways to mitigate that.

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Warlord: Storm of Fire) (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma (2-4 Plasma, 7-16 Boltgun, 3 Heavy Bolter)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2d3 Autocannon, 2-4 Boltgun, 6 Heavy Bolter)

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Teeth of Terra) (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma (2-4 Plasma, 7-16 Boltgun, 3 Heavy Bolter)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2d3 Autocannon, 2-4 Boltgun, 6 Heavy Bolter)

46-104 Boltgun
18 Heavy Bolter
8-16 Plasma
4d3 Autocannon
6 Hunter-killer Missile
16 Lascannon

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 00:28:09


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The Mattler wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
That Predator list has a terrifying lack of hoard firepower for 2,000 points.
Particularly once the other guy has gone first and tidied up the scouts and maybe some of the tacticals.
Sure I wouldn't want to run a Baneblade or a Knight into it, but...

I have no idea where you got that impression. Other than 16 Lascannons and 6 Hunter-killer Missiles, the entire list has effective rate of fire, and almost all other non-Scout units will be re-rolling some combination of 1s to hit and wound (not to mention the Salamanders CT stacking to help with 2s, etc). In the games when you're not as worried about enemy reinforcements, at least some of the Scouts are likely to hang back to get buffed too.

Also, what's with the constant "what if your opponent gets first turn?" complaining around here, anyway? It happens roughly half the time, so you might as well get used to it. Granted, it happens slightly more often with this list, but I have already explained some ways to mitigate that.

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Warlord: Storm of Fire) (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun)
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma (2-4 Plasma, 7-16 Boltgun, 3 Heavy Bolter)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun)
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2d3 Autocannon, 2-4 Boltgun, 6 Heavy Bolter)

SALAMANDER BATTALION
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Teeth of Terra) (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun) no impact
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword (1-2 Plasma, 0-2 Boltgun) no impact
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun) bad ppw
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns (5-10 Boltgun) bad ppw
168pts Tactical Squad w/Heavy Bolter, Plasmagun, Combi-plasma (2-4 Plasma, 7-16 Boltgun, 3 Heavy Bolter) not moving ppw v. t4 3+ @ 24 inches (.653 + .365 + .365 + .762 = 78 ppw, bad or let's shoot at some reapers for .653 + .33 + .33 + 1.155= 68 ppw = bad even worse against rangers or anything else you would bring shining spears: .495 + .165 + .165 + .5775 = 119.8 )
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun) (4x las pred = reavers 138.6, spears 143.9 or 88 ppw v. the flyers)
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2-4 Boltgun) (4x las pred = 138.6, spears 143.9 or 88 ppw v. the flyers)
158pts Predator w/Predator Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter (2d3 Autocannon, 2-4 Boltgun, 6 Heavy Bolter) (1.25 + .653 + .653 = 61.96 v reapers, spears .5 x .84 x .5 x 2 x 3.5 = 1.47+ .5 x .66 x .5 x 6= .99 + 1.47 = 2.46 or 60.97 ppw or flyers at 1.23 + .27 or 105.05 ppw)

46-104 Boltgun
18 Heavy Bolter
8-16 Plasma
4d3 Autocannon
6 Hunter-killer Missile
16 Lascannon


So I'm shooting at you with units getting from between 60.97 ppw at best to 138.6 ppw at worst ( didn't account for storm bolters or HKM so call it 58 and 130)

Something like a batallion of aldari
exarch
farseer
dire avengers x1
rangers x3
dark reapers + exarch x3 (2 units of 6, 2 go in the waveserpant)
shining spears 5+ exarch
crimson hunter exarch
wave serpant

Ynarri patrol
Yvraine
kabalites or more avengers
shining spears 5 + exarch
Reapers 10 + exarch

Math-hammer is not a game and cute terrain or terrible rolling or really smart deployment can mitigate these numbers but:

You are using shining spears, crimson hunter and reapers with ppw against my troops of reapers at 37/46, Crimson Hunter Exarch w/2 Bright Lances - 25.96 PPW or shining spears @ 20-23.8

Your 24 reapers + word of pheonix for effectively 33 reapers deals 27 wounds to my preds or kills 2 and degrades the other (no guide, no doom, no re-rolls) The exarchs shoot 4 times at my chaff for .715 x .5 = 10 or two units of scouts or one unit of sm in cover (good bye 165 point tac marine squad)

Crimson hunter comes along, pulse laser + 2x bright lances (.77 x .66 x 3.5 x 2 = 3.56 + .77 x .66 x .84 x 3 x 2 = 2.56 or 6 more wounds or good bye predator #3)

Hmm, now what's left for your two units of shining spears oh 3 preds and one unit of tacs and a couple scouts. Ignore those scouts as I can fly, shruken cannon the tac squad, lance the pred (one pred down to lances w/ exarch) charge out of phase with the ynarri spears after they kill chaff with shrukens or pred with lances, 2x charge attacks vs pred with this unit and hell the other unit didn't make it's charge so 2 preds down and luck would have it you can't consolidate into my LAST predator.

Game is over, that was fun setting up models and removing them for an hour...

I go first.

Preds move to get in range/LOS of wave serpant, and one unit of spears (have to stay w/in 6" of each other). Rest of army can get into range/view of the other spears. CH is out of range because super move + 36" range why not be at the furthest corner.

Las preds @ wave serpant. I use kill shot you use lightning fast reactions making it -2 to hit...
4 las preds (moved -2 to hit so hitting on 6s...(.167 x .84 .84 = we'll ignore the +1 damage w/ your serpent shield so 1.64 wounds per tank or 6.5 which your spirit stones ignore so 5.5 wounds....)
2 las preds are shooting at the spears (4d3 ACs moved so hitting on 5s (.33 x .84 x .5 = .1386 wounding shots per AC or a 83% chance to kill one) (bolters hitting o 5s (.33 x .84 x .5 = 3.3 wounds or combined 3 spears die)
2 tac squads shooting at same spears now down 3 (plas @-1 .5 x .66 x .5 = .0825 lets use the salamander re-rolls on this to get it up to .125 per shot or a 50% chance to deal one wound, 2x heavy bolters moved so -2 (.33 x .66 x .5 x 6 = .653) 14x bolters @ 24 inches (.5 x .5 x .33 = 1.155 wounds so all together we take of 2.5 wounds or one more dead spear so we're up to 4 dead spears and 90% of my army has shot

So at the end of my turn one I've not degraded one transport and killed 4 spears or dealt 124 points worth of damage maybe round that up to 6 spears with all the hunter killer missiles at them vs.
the 5 preds, tac squad and scout squad you've killed. The 18 rangers you have will kill a LT or captain per turn if they can get LOS w/o moving.
You can still hit back after taking that alpha and get rid of 4 preds + so instead of picking my models up at the start of my turn 1 I get to pick them up at the end of your turn 2.


So your efficiencies are somewhere between 75% to 200% better than what you are suggesting if fight this list with (not counting re-rolls, strats or buffs because psionics vs re-roll buffs come out in the wash. IMO these factors favor your army but you obviously don't need any more help so I'll take that in my column)


I think there is a huge problem with first turn alpha but the reason I keep mentioning it in CW favor is you have units that can deploy out of sight/range and then move into range without completely gimping their firepower. Shining spears and all reapers start outside of LOS and can still put damage on intended targets on their first turn whenever that is.

Move and then shooting at units with a native -1 reduce my ability to hit from hitting on 3's to hitting on 5's of 100% reduction in shooting power while the units I'm complaining about the most (hemlocks and reapers) don't.

Also, a major point your missing here, SM VEHICLES DO NOT GET CHAPTER TACTICS. So no Salamander CT, no -1 to hit for ravens, no fall back and shoot, no 6+ FnP which doesn't seem priced into what SM pay for their vehicles vs. what aldari pay.

The afor mentioned list get rolf-stomped by any sort of competitive list. The winning list you mentioned works only because of the storm ravens and that list went up in points by 150ish points due to the new CA

With that list its more of a first turn gets huge advantage because of the storm ravens vs your reapers but hidden in a transport/webway should only lose a unit or two, they survive much better against the spears but die faster to the crimson hunter so reapers kill one raven and damage one, hunter kills the other, spears take out 2-3 razor backs and you are again fighting with many more points than your opponent at the start of turn 2 even though you go second. Going first you kill all the razors and a couple dev squads and injure a raven, ravens kill a unit of reapers then die at bottom of turn 2 with the last of the dev squads.

Again math-hammer isn't warhammer but it appears that spamming the best units in the eldar codex >>>>>>>>SM lists


   
Made in gd
Fresh-Faced New User




bananathug wrote:

Something like a batallion of aldari
exarch
farseer
dire avengers x1
rangers x3
dark reapers + exarch x3 (2 units of 6, 2 go in the waveserpant)
shining spears 5+ exarch
crimson hunter exarch
wave serpant

Ynarri patrol
Yvraine
kabalites or more avengers
shining spears 5 + exarch
Reapers 10 + exarch

It will probably take a while for me to respond because I have two exams coming up this week, but I'll see what I can do. Before I respond, I want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting what you're saying, and so the first task is to clarify exactly what's in the Aeldari list. Let me know if the following is correct:

ALAITOC BATTALION (1376pts)
77pts Autarch
100pts Farseer (POWERS?)
60pts 5 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
72pts 6 Rangers
72pts 6 Rangers
72pts 6 Rangers
157pts 5 Shining Spears w/Exarch, Star Lance
167pts 6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
167pts 6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
113pts 3 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher
175pts Crimson Hunter Exarch
144pts Wave Serpents w/Twin Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

YNNARI (ALAITOC) PATROL (624pts)
132pts Yvraine (POWERS?, Warlord: TRAIT?)
60pts 5 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
157pts 5 Shining Spears w/Exarch, Star Lance
275pts 10 Dark Reapers w/Exarch, Tempest Launcher

2000pts
7CP

That's what I came up with based on your description. I assumed the you meant "Webway" instead of "Wave Serpent" for the 2x6 Reapers.

Could you elaborate a little on the Aeldari deployment strategy? Am I correct in assuming the following?
2x6 Reapers in the Webway
Yvraine + Farseer + 10 Dark Reapers in Wave Serpent
Everything else on the table somewhere. I count 12 unit setups, assuming the Webway pair counts as one (sort of like a transport?).
Would you deploy the Rangers as infiltrators or not? Also, which units are you likely to deploy near one another for support?

I also have a few other questions:

1) Which warlord trait will Yvraine have (from the main rulebook)?
2) What will Yvraine's non-Word psychic power be (probably Ancestor's Grace)?
3) What will the Farseer's psychic powers be, and how will you use them?
4) How do you plan to spend the last 2CP, after paying for Webway Strike and Lightning-Fast Reactions? Turn 1 Fire and Fade or Runes of Witnessing? Turn 2 Lightning-Fast Reactons? I highly recommend Phantasm if going second.

Oddly enough, the 6 Predator list was the second one I wrote, as a thought experiment to try to preserve Killshot. The first incarnation was the following Brigade:

SALAMANDER BRIGADE
89pts Captain w/Combi-plasma, Chainsword (Teeth of Terra, Warlord: Storm of Fire)
79pts Lieutenant w/Combi-plasma, Power Sword
63pts Techmarine w/Stormbolter, Power Sword
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
55pts 5 Scouts w/Boltguns
158pts Tactical Squad w/Plasmagun, Combi-plasma
158pts Tactical Squad w/Plasmagun, Combi-plasma
134pts Dreadnought w/DCCW, Storm Bolter, Assault Cannon
134pts Dreadnought w/DCCW, Storm Bolter, Assault Cannon
32pts 2 Company Veterans w/Chainswords, Boltguns <-- Just a cheap Elites slot
47pts Attack Bike w/Heavy Bolter
47pts Attack Bike w/Heavy Bolter
47pts Attack Bike w/Heavy Bolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter
198pts Predator w/Twin Lascannon, 2 Lascannons, Hunter-killer Missile, Stormbolter

2000pts
12CP

A more responsive list, but also more vulnerable to losing Killshot and its auras. However, Dreadnoughts can spend CP for an aura, and at least the disposable Veterans might take a couple of shots meant for the Captain or Lieutenant.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/10 16:11:18


 
   
Made in de
Infiltrating Prowler






 Blackie wrote:
Marines without Guilliman are inferior only to Eldar, AM and Tyranids. Against index armies they'll always have balanced matches, and in many cases they will be superior.

Against semi-competitive (if we cut Guilliman why should other factions bring their best combos?) tyranids and eldar lists they have concrete possibilities of winning the game, even if those xenos have the edge. AM is the most effective army in the game, everyone will struggle against guardsmen.

Eldar are very strong, but not even remotely as OP as they were in 7th edition.


I've yet to lose a game against SM with DE and won many games against IG too. Having 5++ on everything with a -1 to hit on all your key units, on top of spamming dark light weapons, is extremely good, especially against IG as, from my experience, they render almost all artillery useless. Due to the sheer size of IG, you are also (or at least you were, before chapter approved) guaranteed an alpha strike with your dark light spammy Air Wing detachment, which you could easily either destroy or severely cripple their basilisks/manticores/mortars. The only struggle was the bodies of conscripts that held objectives (but they were rendered almost entirely harmless with -1 to hit and normal saves), which was still heavily mitigated with Maelstrom missions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/11 14:11:58


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I like that the consensus is slowly growing towards people understanding how inferior codex space marine is to other codex armies. Now people are even coming to the realization that marines are even inferior to some index armies.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Cheap is the name of the game in 8th.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

At least I can take some solace in knowing I was spot-on when I argued way back in 5th that folding Black Templars into the Vanilla Codex would be a disaster. Raven Guard is the only decent-ish Chapter Tactic and Guilliman is the only Character keeping the army's head above the water. Playing anything that isn't Guilliman with AssCanBacks is an exercise in frustration, and that's coming on the heels of two editions where this has already been the case from a BT perspective. Y'all will have to excuse me if your platitudes of "diversity" and "options" and "customization" fall a bit flat when all those vaunted options are rubbish.

All I want to be able to do is play my Black Templars without being a worse version of some other army and have a decent chance of success against someone else who's trying to win. That hasn't been the case for a very long time. I suspect I'm similar in that regard to Martel and his Blood Angels, with the exception that I didn't even get to be top-tier during 5th edition.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
At least I can take some solace in knowing I was spot-on when I argued way back in 5th that folding Black Templars into the Vanilla Codex would be a disaster. Raven Guard is the only decent-ish Chapter Tactic and Guilliman is the only Character keeping the army's head above the water. Playing anything that isn't Guilliman with AssCanBacks is an exercise in frustration, and that's coming on the heels of two editions where this has already been the case from a BT perspective. Y'all will have to excuse me if your platitudes of "diversity" and "options" and "customization" fall a bit flat when all those vaunted options are rubbish.

All I want to be able to do is play my Black Templars without being a worse version of some other army and have a decent chance of success against someone else who's trying to win. That hasn't been the case for a very long time. I suspect I'm similar in that regard to Martel and his Blood Angels, with the exception that I didn't even get to be top-tier during 5th edition.


Ever since we got rolled into the main Codex, Black Templars played as Black Templars have been the weakest Loyalist Marines. Sure, we could play Grav-Centurion Spam or whatever but then you’re not really playing Black Templars, you’re playing Black Ultramarines. And yet it’s always Blood Angels players martyrising themselves about having ‘the worst Loyalist Marines’ and oh how much stronger they would be if they were allowed the toys the ‘favoured’ Marine Chapters got. Never mind that Templars players would have committed bloody murder to have the Blood Angels’ close combat rules (seriously, did you read Angel’s Blade? Jealous!)

I dunno, maybe it’s just that people play the armies that reflect their own personality. The Sons of Dorn rage against injustice, accept their situation is terrible and knuckle down to get work done. Meanwhile the melodramatic pretty boys just cry. Maybe it has something to do with their Chaos-tainted daddy getting rekt by Horus...
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






blood angels might actually be top teir. They have the ability to hit you with Deathcompany plus SG and a libby dread in the first turn and it's nearly automatic.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Caution, lots of salt ahead. Played another reaper+ss spear last night and 80% of my army was gone by the bottom of turn 2

[rant]
Yeah, now with the new BA codex out and DA on the way I keep looking at my space marines like do I just shelve these models again which I've played with for 2 months or do I finally hit ebay and call it a day?

I'll probably keep a couple pieces but every time I creating a list I see other things that do what I'm trying to do better.
-IG infantry + artillery >> any of our tanks/screens
-BA characters/Celestine >> any DS CC options we have
-BA deepstrikers/jumppacks >> VVs w/ JP
-DA plamsa >> SM plasma

The only thing I find myself debating using is raven-guard because of their infiltration strat and -1 to hit.

New ITC champion's missions make guilliman + razorbacks give up way too many points and armies nowa days just pop razorbacks way too easy (3-4 turn 1) and storm ravens aren't much more surviviable in my local meta (reaper spam FTW).

Anyone talk me off this ledge before I dump 20 years worth of models and walk away until next years CA settles the meta?

I don't have fun going to my local and getting bad games vs. everyone else's armies (CSM, IG, Eldar, Nids dominate. Hell the sisters guy and assassins dude are too much) Asking them to "tone it down" just isn't my style (I'd rather whine on the internet than in person).

Maybe this isn't the game for me. My friends all play D&D and other RPGs and aren't really wargaming fans so maybe my lack of intimate group to play with is what's "wrong" with my experience and playing pick-up games just isn't in the cards for this edition with my army.

I don't want the best army, just one that isn't an exercise in picking up my models by turn 3. Able to go to the monthly tourney and not feeling like I'm the points pinata for the IG and Eldar armies (giving up 32-36 points skews results really far in their favor). I did well against Cawl Bots and knights, even the chaos monster mash list was manageable but the eldar armies I fight are just too efficient.

I've run everything from guilliman + 5 razorbacks, guilliman + 2 storm ravens (I "only" have 2), raven guard inceptors + hellblasters (shining spears love these guys), black templar black tide (lrc's don't last long enough then footslogging marines up the board, lol and neophites at the same cost as scouts is terribad oh and grimaldus is like 40 points over-costed...), guilliman + dreads, Ironhand dreads + rg hellblaster/aggressor bomb + celestine (probably the best list thus far)

[/rant]
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





If 80% of your army was gone - how much of theirs was gone?

I only ask because even the casual way my buddies and I play, this game never gets past Turn 3 now unless you have a table built with terrain to make it take longer (which is always fun). It's just a crazy killy game...and we're not even taking crazy units.

I do think Space Marines suck pretty bad right now...I just don't see much good in them (I play CSM minus the Chaos for the most part and suffer similar difficulties).

Are you playing with like-minded people or bashing your head against a meta/tournament style group? If you're not having fun - no shame in moving onto other things. 40K simply isn't a very balanced game and the more serious people take it the more crappy the games can get.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

 Xenomancers wrote:
blood angels might actually be top teir. They have the ability to hit you with Deathcompany plus SG and a libby dread in the first turn and it's nearly automatic.


People at top tables are handling a ton of AL Khorne berserkers showing up on their doorstep in effectively no-fail charge range just fine. What makes you think they can't handle 10 SG 15 DC and a Libby dread?

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Dark Reapers are obviously too strong.

The fact that anyone tries to represent the killshot stratagem as a viable option is laughable. It's good at hunting super heavies, but it sucks in TAC.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Yeah, it's having to chose between those Khorne berserkers and the deep striking oblits that (IMHO) makes for a fun game where having to force your opponent to make tactical choices is fun.

Also the libby dread throws in a interesting wrinkle as it is significantly more durable than the typical deepstriking charger.

BA + IG artillery seem like they could be a really good combo (if I do sell most of my marines it's something that I think would be fun to model/paint and play)
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Xenomancers wrote:
I like that the consensus is slowly growing towards people understanding how inferior codex space marine is to other codex armies. Now people are even coming to the realization that marines are even inferior to some index armies.


I honestly think that the marine codex was kind of a rush job to be honest. Not as bad as some of the codexes (looking at you Grey Knights) and not the worst in terms of design (Ad Mech), but it is certainly quite low down. The codex was designed so poorly.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 niv-mizzet wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
blood angels might actually be top teir. They have the ability to hit you with Deathcompany plus SG and a libby dread in the first turn and it's nearly automatic.


People at top tables are handling a ton of AL Khorne berserkers showing up on their doorstep in effectively no-fail charge range just fine. What makes you think they can't handle 10 SG 15 DC and a Libby dread?

Probably just wishful thinking but I think that DC and SG might be a little bit better due to their weapons choices.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Elbows wrote:
If 80% of your army was gone - how much of theirs was gone?

I only ask because even the casual way my buddies and I play, this game never gets past Turn 3 now unless you have a table built with terrain to make it take longer (which is always fun). It's just a crazy killy game...and we're not even taking crazy units.

I do think Space Marines suck pretty bad right now...I just don't see much good in them (I play CSM minus the Chaos for the most part and suffer similar difficulties).

Are you playing with like-minded people or bashing your head against a meta/tournament style group? If you're not having fun - no shame in moving onto other things. 40K simply isn't a very balanced game and the more serious people take it the more crappy the games can get.


He had one unit of spears left, 15 reapers, all of his rangers, his hemlock (not sure why he doesn't use a crimson hunter) and all of his characters and his chaff left at the start of his turn 3 (he had 4 units of them, one 10 man and 3 6 man. I got rid of 2 6 man and RG smashed his non ynarri spears who didn't fire and flee)
He went first and I only had I had a unit of scouts, RG (3 wounds left) and Tigurius at the start of my turn 2. (started with 5 razorbacks + stormraven + 3 scouts + intercessors + 2 dev squads w/ grav cannon + tigurius and Telion)

-Raven (2 webway reapers), 2 backs (sfd reapers + reapers and really bad rolling + hemlock), 2 scouts (exarchs), telion (rangers) die on turn 1 His spears didn't webway (because the reapers did), were too far away for quicken and were positioned badly or I could have been mostly tabled BEFORE I even got a turn.
-12 reapers, 3 spears die on my turn 1
-3 backs (Reapers), scouts (rangers), dev squads (exarchs + spears shrukens), intercessors (spears charge/lances) hemlock goes after RG and almost kills him (3 wounds left)
-rest of the non ynarri spears died on my turn 2

Full on tourney style group. Someone started an arms race and it's just gotten bad since then. It's not crazy for someone to go out and buy the newest OP gak (morty and magnus turned up as soon as they came out) or just have it (one of the guys has over 15k points of tau just sitting around) people own titans, one guy bought a 30 assassin list because of that netlist. Most of these guys have been playing for a couple editions so have enough models to capitalize on whatever is OP now and I'm really just coming back since 6th dropped dusting off my old marines from 5th edition. Hell the shop owner will run his 8 dakka flyrant list just to mess with us from time to time.

I was hoping I could carve out a niche with marines and I may do that once DA and BA settle down a bit but I've had marines since '96 and find it disheartening that they will just end up on my shelf. We all play WYSIWYG and with at least 80% painted armies. The game is just not balanced for people with different levels of collections and I need to make a decision if I'm going to dump a $1k into models and hundreds of hours of painting/assembly into what can turn into office decorations like my Black Templars...

edit: spelling

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/14 23:00:12


 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

I honestly think the main problem with Marines is their naff Stratagems. Let's take a look at them in some detail...

Ignoring the universal strat of taking extra relics, and ignoring chapter-specific strats, we're left with a base line of 18 Space Marine Strategems. How do they break down?

Chapter Master, Orbitale Bombardment and Honour the Chapter all clock in at 3CPs - very expensive, hard to justify. Chapter Master in particular is a bit crazy, as it's basically a tax for not playing a big chapter.

Next we have two 2CP stratagems, and they're two of the better ones: Auspex Scan, a strictly inferior version of Forewarned it's true, and can't be combo'd into broken Reaper territory, but none the less it's a great strat. Only in Death is also great, allowing you to squeeze the last bit of value out of your beatsticks.

This is where things get very problematic: 1CP strats. Cluster Mines, Killshot, Linebreaker Bombardment, Masterful Marksmanship, Empyric Channeling, Datalink Telemetry, Hellfire Shells, Tremor Shells & Flak Missile all trigger only in respect to certain units. Most of those units are gack, or else the strat requires you to field a whole bunch of okay-good units daisy chained together. So for example, Killshot is great if you can trigger it, but it requires 3 healthy predators in formation to do so; extremely conservative design that demands a marine player field four predators (760pts!) to be in with a chance of actually using (but of course, even taking four, your opponent can probably wipe two preds off the board in one turn)! I'm not saying that they're bad strats - Hellfire Shells and Masterful Marksmanship are both good, if you make sure you can trigger them. ... Primaris Armies, for example, can use precisely zero of these strats.

That leaves us with the few strats that are a) cheap enough b) universal enough c) effective enough to actually use...

- Armour of Contempt is pretty handy against smitespam, giving a 1/3 chance to resist on a dread. Situational but has its uses.

- Wisdom of the Ancient is a legitimaley good strat, turning a dread into a captain for a turn. Give you flexibility on the field, helps negate movement penalties, handy stuff. Only lasts for a phase, but hey, it's decent.

- Tactical Flexibility is so niche as to be a bit pointless.

- Death to the Traitors is pretty damn niche too, granting you the ability CSMs get baked in to their units for one turn.

Okay, looking over those, what do we see?

1) Strats that are too pricey to build around, unless you go guard brigade with a core of your fave marine units.

2) Strats that are niche, ineffective, headscratchers: nothing unusual there I suppose, most codexes have a few. But Marines get a lot.

3) Strats tied to specific units, a few of which are good (Kill Shot & Marksmanship), some which are kind of useful (hellfire) and lots that are tied to units that just don't cut it. Even those strats that are okay (empyric channeling, killshot) are tied to a punitive army list and board setup.

4) Genuinely good strats that are well costed and effective. That would be Auspex Scan & Wisdom of the Ancients.

Now this wasn't really a problem until the new codexes started landing. Guard, Eldar & Nids all have outstanding strats which augment their already very good units. Admech codex is a mess, but it has decent strats too, certainly stronger than marine. Blood Angel strats are through the roof, and Dark Angel strats look like they might follow suit.

That leaves our good old buddies, Grey Knights, who also are a bit short on strats.

So there you have it, my take on one of the weakest parts of the Marine Codex. It's a real problem imo, and won't likely be fixed anytime soon.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 12:33:51


 
   
 
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