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Oh Chapter Approved reduced their cost too ? Well that changes my statement then. Still, a few transport issue, and they have the same durability as Inceptors.
StormLion wrote: With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?
They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.
Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.
Somewhat, but they are much slower than inceptors at 135 for 3. If you are moving Aggressors Put out 28 S4 shots on average, vs 18 S5 shots. Against T3 5+ save Aggressors put out 8.3 wounds if they move, vs 6.7 for inceptors. Against T4 6+ (orks) it is 7.8 vs 8. So it depends on the Horde. Their ability to get in good positions is really their large issue.
Okay so my first thoughts based on the reviews I've been reading/watching is that the highlights are:
Dark Talons 40 point decrease. These were great before my god they will be good now. That is such a deal.
Hellblasters seem to have been given a pretty big boon in the way of that strategem. Other units will make good use of it too but this strat seems to be what you almost want to build around. It seems that good.
Azrael, while nerfed, is still probably a mainstay especially since you will be wanting to protect those shiny new Hellblasters you just bought.
Ezekiel dropping 10 points does make me happy. I don't know why but I've always found him useful. I will continue to use him.
I think bikes could be back as a potential unit to use in the list again. If the points drop is significant I could see using these guys as another plasma option that comes with anti-infantry as well. Basically anything carting plasma is going to be worth considering. I don't think people will want to totally put away their lascannons but it will definitely be good to have a couple plasma options available. Though I have been using plasma in good faith to my dark angels lore I am excited that it will do more now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 20:11:52
Dark talons are overall 28pts cheaper due to the hurricane bolter increase, but that doesn't change how awesome they are. I'm a little surprised we haven't heard more rumblings about DA flyer spam, honestly. We've got some very strong options in that venue.
There's some discussion in the tactis thread about plasma inceptors, which are now pretty darn good for us. 24 precision plasma shots is a load of firepower.
I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.
I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.
Thoughts?
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
FirePainter wrote: I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.
I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.
Thoughts?
How many points is that list ? It looks really light indeed. But the store manager in my town used to run full Deathwing pre-SM Codex and it sorta worked so why not ? I'd suggest a Librarian to buff your units and deny, and some anti-tank weaponry. Take something to clear out the chaff too, you don't want your Knights to be stuck in CC with Brimstones while your opponent takes objectives.
Again, I don't really know Dark Angels that much, but my advice sounds sensible enough, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
StormLion wrote: With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?
They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.
Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.
hmmm, I picked up some super cheap Aggressors to make 3 units of 3 Obliterators for my iron Warriors (conversions) but now I'm wondering if one of them will sneak it's way into my DAs. Already have Hellblasters and Lt ordered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 04:25:56
MilkmanAl wrote: Dark talons are overall 28pts cheaper due to the hurricane bolter increase, but that doesn't change how awesome they are. I'm a little surprised we haven't heard more rumblings about DA flyer spam, honestly. We've got some very strong options in that venue.
There's some discussion in the tactis thread about plasma inceptors, which are now pretty darn good for us. 24 precision plasma shots is a load of firepower.
The problem I see with DA flyer spam, is model count.
Something that was pointed out to me last weekend, was the Boots on the Ground rule in Chapter Approved is different to the FAQ version – in that you no longer auto lose if you only have flyers on the table. However, they still can’t claim objectives.
The problem here, is that DA – especially the wings, are very elite in terms of model count. Using 3 or 4 flyers will drastically reduce your already small model count leaving you open to all sorts of issues when it comes to “tabling” or objective based missions.
FirePainter wrote: I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.
I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.
Thoughts?
How many points is that list ? It looks really light indeed. But the store manager in my town used to run full Deathwing pre-SM Codex and it sorta worked so why not ? I'd suggest a Librarian to buff your units and deny, and some anti-tank weaponry. Take something to clear out the chaff too, you don't want your Knights to be stuck in CC with Brimstones while your opponent takes objectives.
Again, I don't really know Dark Angels that much, but my advice sounds sensible enough, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
This would be aiming for 2000 point. I could replace champions/ancients with cheap scout squads to provide a screen and obj grabbers.
Lists heavy on chaff might be an issue but both types of knights can clear them reasonably well. I am light on anti-tank besides melee ability. I'd have to drop a squad of something to be able to fit that in. I'd love a dark talon in the list but point are so tight with death and ravenwing.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.
Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..
Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 13:20:45
Grizzyzz wrote: Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.
Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..
Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..
I'm personally, just a little nervous about the model count you have. Is it a maelstrom tourney or standard?
Also, you can't give Sammael a relic due to him being a named character.
I'd get a big Black Knight unit going, for sure. they can take advantage of the plasma and SoTR strats exceptionally well. Model count isn't something I'd worry about all that much. That's just a disadvantage Ravenwing and Deathwing are going to have to live with. You can compensate for lack of models with speed to a large degree, where board control is concerned.
There's been a lot of talk about Azrael parking lots on this board, so I figured I'd try my hand at a list and see what you guys think. Since vehicles don't get Azrael's 4++ anymore, I'm trending away from the Assback strategy Guilliman lovers employ and more towards pure heavy weaponry.
Azrael - 180
Lieutenant - power fist - 72
10 Hellblasters - 350? (forgot their cost and don't have a codex handy)
3x5 Scouts - 165
4 Mortis Dreads - 2 twin lascannons - 700
2 Dark Talons - 344? (again, forgot the new cost)
1 Darkshroud - 180ish
That's an exceptionally crude total of ~1990.
The plan is super easy. Get everything you can within 6" of Azrael, the Lieutenant, and the Darkshroud, and go to town. Scouts screen out drops. Plasma strat every turn on the Hellblasters to really mess something(s) up. Move your blob as necessary. It might be a bit of a challenge to capture objectives, but between Scouts and just normal movement, you shouldn't be at a huge disadvantage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 15:17:54
Grizzyzz wrote: Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.
Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..
Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..
Lets introduce ourselves "the new go to Warlord" Sammael (Azzy we'll never forget you ).I'd put him in Sableclaw instead of Corvex. The darkshroud-Black knights are an awesome choice. I'd remove the RW bikes and personally not gonna field any again. Their dmg output is ridiculously small for what they cost. Instead put 2x Talonmasters the new DA trend to lead the Black Knights. You can also give one the new power sword relic and watch him reign. Instead of 2xNephilim i would go 2x Dark Talons, they are just amazing.
But still i havent found the new points so i dont exactly know how much the Talonmasters are gonna cost.
Grizzyzz wrote: Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.
Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..
Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..
I'm personally, just a little nervous about the model count you have. Is it a maelstrom tourney or standard?
Also, you can't give Sammael a relic due to him being a named character.
Its a custom format based on top of ITC. Maestromesk in a way with its progressive scoring system. We have added some extra sauce to try and limit some of the powerhouse lists. For example.. we run max 2 detachments. You can't have more characters than you have command points (while not perfect for all armies, it does more good than not).
I wasn't aware of the relic restrictions on named characters.. TY.. that is a shame :p but makes perfect sense.
Lets introduce ourselves "the new go to Warlord" Sammael (Azzy we'll never forget you ).I'd put him in Sableclaw instead of Corvex. The darkshroud-Black knights are an awesome choice. I'd remove the RW bikes and personally not gonna field any again. Their dmg output is ridiculously small for what they cost. Instead put 2x Talonmasters the new DA trend to lead the Black Knights. You can also give one the new power sword relic and watch him reign. Instead of 2xNephilim i would go 2x Dark Talons, they are just amazing.
But still i havent found the new points so i dont exactly know how much the Talonmasters are gonna cost.
I do really like talon masters as well... I can see moving forward almost auto included is a Supreme command detachment of 3 of them.
Unfortunately for this tournament i am a little thin on models ( just started this army ) I will mess around a bit and repost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/13 16:38:04
Wow, has anyone thought about the Redemptor Dreadnought for anti-horde ? Base it costs 207 pts for 12 S5 AP-1 shots, a heavy flamer, a D3 S7 AP-1 anti-fly weapon, and two D6 S4 grenade launchers. If you want more long range dakka you can amp it up to 222 pts for 24 S5 AP-1 shots, two Storm Bolters and the anti-fly weapon. Plus the classic Dreadnought fist to hit at S14 AP-3 D6 damage. I like it, it provides 24 heavy bolter shots at 30" and will reroll its 1s if standing still, two storm bolters for closer range (the grenade launchers are more expensive), as well as a nice anti-fly weapon.
In comparison we can buy 5 Inceptors with assault bolters, they will cost 225 pts and deliver 30 shots, albeit at 18", but they'll be in range after their deepstrike anyway. Durability-wise we have 10W with the Inceptors against 13W for the Redemptor, but he loses BS, WS and M when under 7W, altough he is T. However we lose the anti-fly weapon when taking the Inceptors, and the sweet CCW.
I think the Inceptors are better at dealing dakka, while the Dreadnought have more versatility in the way of his anti-fly weapon and his CC abilities. Thoughts on this ? I really want to justify buying a Redemptor because truescale Dreadnoughts are NICE.
Grizzyzz wrote: Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.
Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..
Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..
special characters cannot take a relic... maybe add some scouts for DS deny and objectives
Aaranis wrote: Wow, has anyone thought about the Redemptor Dreadnought for anti-horde ? Base it costs 207 pts for 12 S5 AP-1 shots, a heavy flamer, a D3 S7 AP-1 anti-fly weapon, and two D6 S4 grenade launchers. If you want more long range dakka you can amp it up to 222 pts for 24 S5 AP-1 shots, two Storm Bolters and the anti-fly weapon. Plus the classic Dreadnought fist to hit at S14 AP-3 D6 damage. I like it, it provides 24 heavy bolter shots at 30" and will reroll its 1s if standing still, two storm bolters for closer range (the grenade launchers are more expensive), as well as a nice anti-fly weapon.
In comparison we can buy 5 Inceptors with assault bolters, they will cost 225 pts and deliver 30 shots, albeit at 18", but they'll be in range after their deepstrike anyway. Durability-wise we have 10W with the Inceptors against 13W for the Redemptor, but he loses BS, WS and M when under 7W, altough he is T. However we lose the anti-fly weapon when taking the Inceptors, and the sweet CCW.
I think the Inceptors are better at dealing dakka, while the Dreadnought have more versatility in the way of his anti-fly weapon and his CC abilities. Thoughts on this ? I really want to justify buying a Redemptor because truescale Dreadnoughts are NICE.
I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!
COLD CASH wrote: I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!
Yeah I remember, but the downside is that it's going to be the stock version while I'd like to build a double dakka one. Well, I'll see if the price is decent and decide then !
COLD CASH wrote: I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!
Yeah I remember, but the downside is that it's going to be the stock version while I'd like to build a double dakka one. Well, I'll see if the price is decent and decide then !
I have a spare assault cannon from my terms so im just glueing that baby on and boom double dakka!
Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.
24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points
Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
TedNugent wrote: Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.
24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points
Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.
Off the top of my head, there's a few reasons I can think of.
Mobility: Provided you don't take the heavy plasma incinerator (that's what it's called, right? I can't remember), you can move and fire. At 15" you're getting 2 shots guaranteed instead of 2 average. The caveat here is if they are stationary, they are getting the effect of Grim Resolve.
Durability: I would argue that they are slightly more durable, having 2 wounds. I say only slightly because there's a lot of things that have D2 (aka Autocannons).
Quantity: You can have a whole squad of them instead of max 4. This maximizes the strategem for bonus damage. To try to get the same amount of plasma spouting weapons, you'll need more than two squads which will cost either just under (~300 for two minimum squads with 4 Plasma Cannons vs 10 Hellblasters for 330).
Flexibility: Hellblasters aren't the worst in close combat either... they have base 2 attacks and a bonus bolt pistol as well.
Armour Penetration: Lastly, Hellblasters have -4 AP whereas Plasma Cannons have -3. That extra AP is pretty decent.
I'm sure there's another school of thought, but compared to regular marines, I personally think Primaris Marines win out. I would only take normal marines for specialized tasks (like Black Knights for example). Until Primaris versions come out... if they are ever let into the Inner Circle
TedNugent wrote: Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.
24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points
Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.
Well, devastators may only have 4 plasma cannons which is 12 shots if you are lucky, hellblasters may take 10 plasma incinirators which range 30'' and 20 shots at 15'' which make Weapons of the dark age stratagem much more deadly, plus you can move them without getting any penalty
TedNugent wrote: Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.
24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points
Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.
they're not and I don't know why everyone is into them. And they only get 2 shots at 15".
10 model units of devastators and scouts are the biggest winners of Grim Resolve. Inceptors are the big winner of the plasma strategem, along with Black Knights who get other strategems. Dark Angels Hellblasters are not bad but don't live up to the hype.
I see what people are saying with the +1 strategem, if used in tandem with rerolls on overcharge woukd be savage.
But thats more of an all in investment versus me rerolling 1s and overcharging each turn with some plasma devs. The strat is just a bonus for 3 damage a shot, no?
15 inch range, IDK man. Even if you drop a ten man how are you going to get in the captain bubble for rerolls. In that case you're what, strength 6 with 2 damage after the strategem, in 15 inches and wide out of cover?
Also, havent devs had bolt pistols for ages, with rerollable 1s on overwatch? Plasma cannons can also be overwatched now, and you can fire them at BS3 in a pinch for 42" threat range. You can also grab as many ablative wounds as you want.
And +1 damage on that unit is still nothing to sneeze at. Average of 8 shots at 3 damage, S8, rerolling 1s to hit and +1 to hit for auspex. That strikes me on surface as a very high damage rate for a relatively cheap unit requiring no support at 36".
I'll have to read into it when I get codex in hand but I'm gonna try plasma devs first before I buy any Primaris kits.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Plasma inceptors are better than either. 6 get 12D3 plasma shots (a min squad still gets 6D3), and have deepstrike, put a jump pack master with them (and lieutenant if you want). Now 6 it is significantly more expensive than the dev squad. SO if you are not looking for a super alpha strike unit it could be the way to go. The other advantage to inceptors is that they are less likely to be killed prior to shooting than the devs if you don't get turn 1.
Different roles for each unit I think. The Devastators are your long range punch, the HellBlasters are for close up work. When your opponent deep strikes a unit at your line the HellBlasters shine because they can move up double tap and then potentially charge into combat, which honestly is where the extra wound on each model shines because there are fewer close combat weapons that do 2+ damage.
If you want a gunline to blast away at a distance, the Devastators are the obvious choice, especially since you have 6 models worth of ablative wounds before losing plasma. At close range though, the HellBlasters are vastly superior because of their mobility, increased number of shots, and the extra AP that will really make sure your opponent is not getting saves.
vonjankmon wrote: At close range though, the HellBlasters are vastly superior because of their mobility, increased number of shots, and the extra AP that will really make sure your opponent is not getting saves.
I like Hellblasters for exactly that reason. With the pace of gameplay in 8th, you're going to spend a lot of time within 15" of something, especially if you make it happen. Devs are a great source of cheap plasma, but I don't see myself running either of those units outside of Azrael's bubble. Given that, mobility is a huge perk for the Hellblasters (i.e., rapid fire>heavy weapons) since I'll be running my parking lot around trying to kite as much as possible. I'll give both a try, for sure, but I see Hellblasters being more useful for my style.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
).I'd put him in Sableclaw instead of Corvex. The darkshroud-Black knights are an awesome choice. I'd remove the 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
