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bananathug wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

bananathug wrote:
surround it with your 9 SS (because fly) so all the berzerkers inside die and then go charge something else...

9 Shining Spears don't have enough coverage to trap anything a Rhino. Maybe you're thinking that things move from their vehicle when it dies, but they do not. They teleport to wherever they want to deploy.

pg 183 of the rule book:
If a transport is destroyed any units embarked within it immediately disembark before the transport model is removed...When a unit disembarks, set iu up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models.

I don't have any spear models in front of me but based on the size of a rhino I don't think it would be difficult for a unit that can fly to completely surround one such that the units inside cannot be placed w/in 3" but outside of 1" from all enemy models. If base size is approx 1" across and 2" long and you only need to be @ 1" of a model w/in 1" to be engaged with the model in hand to hand a ring of models 1" from the rhino with bases >1" width will preclude at least some of the transported models from being set-up w/in 1" of the model being destroyed (1 front + back, 2 on one side and 2 rows of 2 on the other and your 9th model somewhere else)

Versus the Rhino:
Shuriken Catapults ~3 wounds (2.67 w/ 1.57 deviation)
Laser Lance ~4 wounds (4.00 w/ 2.49 deviation)
Charging Laser Lance vs Rhino ~8 wounds (8.00 w/ 3.53 deviation)

so 15 wounds v. a rhino chasis for that squad of 9 @ 281 points, adding 2 points for the exarch gives you 1.7 EXTRA wounds (1.4 v. 3.1) seems like a good use of 2 points...

Also that 280 points of spears doing 15 damage to that rhino is 50% more powerful than 2 quad las predators (dedicated space marine anti-vehicle) which do 10 damage to the same rhino but cost 380 points.
Quad las preds: .66 x .66 x .84 = .365 x 4 = 1.45 x 3.5 = 5.12 per 190 point tank

I would argue that right there makes spears OP as they fill several roles(anti-infantry and anti-armor) better and cheaper than specialists fill one role.
Or 280 points to deal 15 wounds >>>>> 380 points to deal 10 or you can just look at the PPW post I posted earlier in the thread...

So either spears are under costed by about 50% (should cost closer to 40-45 points) or the SM codex needs a major buff. I'm down for either but it doesn't seem like the math supports the opinion that they are just "good" unless we are willing to concede that SM just "suck"

Watch out - you might get accused of making hasty generalizations and false equivalency statements for your indisputable facts that you have presented.

bananathug wrote:

pg 183 of the rule book:
If a transport is destroyed any units embarked within it immediately disembark before the transport model is removed...When a unit disembarks, set iu up on the battlefield so that all of its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any enemy models.

I don't have any spear models in front of me but based on the size of a rhino I don't think it would be difficult for a unit that can fly to completely surround one such that the units inside cannot be placed w/in 3" but outside of 1" from all enemy models. If base size is approx 1" across and 2" long and you only need to be @ 1" of a model w/in 1" to be engaged with the model in hand to hand a ring of models 1" from the rhino with bases >1" width will preclude at least some of the transported models from being set-up w/in 1" of the model being destroyed (1 front + back, 2 on one side and 2 rows of 2 on the other and your 9th model somewhere else)

You could absolutely surround a Rhino and prevent the unit within from disembarking, assuming there is nothing preventing you from surrounding it, such as, but not limited to: buildings and other terrain, other enemy units, the board edge, not enough movement. In other words, there are multiple variables making this potentially more or less likely.

As stated previously, this is not a function of being Shining Spears, I've had non-biker units do this to me, it's a fairly standard tactic.

bananathug wrote:
so 15 wounds v. a rhino chasis for that squad of 9 @ 281 points, adding 2 points for the exarch gives you 1.7 EXTRA wounds (1.4 v. 3.1) seems like a good use of 2 points...

Agreed, it still means you have to get lucky in the shooting phase to actually destroy it in at that point, which is kind of the critical component of the comparison. If you don't destroy it with shooting, then you have to charge it, and if your opponent has positioned it well, then you shouldn't be able to surround it easily and the squad inside should be able to disembark for the most part. Honestly, you only need about 5 Berzerkers to wipe out that whole squad.

bananathug wrote:
Also that 280 points of spears doing 15 damage to that rhino is 50% more powerful than 2 quad las predators (dedicated space marine anti-vehicle) which do 10 damage to the same rhino but cost 380 points.
Quad las preds: .66 x .66 x .84 = .365 x 4 = 1.45 x 3.5 = 5.12 per 190 point tank

They will do ~10 damage to the Rhino from pretty much anywhere on the board from which they can draw line of sight. The Shining Spears do it from a range of 22" (if they advance then they can't charge so you would lose that aspect) and have to put themselves in danger of being counter-charged. This is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways. Furthermore, the Berzerkers are by no means guaranteed to kill two Lascannon Predators with their counter-charge, even if you were lackadaisical enough to put them in charge range in the first place.

bananathug wrote:
I would argue that right there makes spears OP as they fill several roles(anti-infantry and anti-armor) better and cheaper than specialists fill one role.
Or 280 points to deal 15 wounds >>>>> 380 points to deal 10 or you can just look at the PPW post I posted earlier in the thread...

I would argue that that is not a valid comparison you're comparing an AT unit that expects to stay out of hand to hand with a close quarters unit. Also, if we ran the numbers for Shining Spears versus those same Predators, the numbers don't favor the Shining Spears nearly as much.

Shooting vs Predators:
Shuriken Catapults - ~3 wounds (2.67 with a deviation of 1.57)
Laser Lances - ~2 wounds (1.85 with a deviation of 1.74)
Exarch Lance - ~2 wound (0.89 with a deviation of .99)

So you've done 7 wounds to one tank that somehow didn't get to fire at you with it's 48" range, but we'll ignore that, it's certainly possible after all, so you'll end up firing everything and still having to charge to kill 1 Predator.

bananathug wrote:
So either spears are under costed by about 50% (should cost closer to 40-45 points) or the SM codex needs a major buff. I'm down for either but it doesn't seem like the math supports the opinion that they are just "good" unless we are willing to concede that SM just "suck"

I think you've just compared models that are not equivalent, that don't even fulfill the same role on the battlefield. It's easy to find bad matchups in the game, but using them as a basis for blanket declarations of inequality is a disingenuous presentation of the facts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Watch out - you might get accused of making hasty generalizations and false equivalency statements for your indisputable facts that you have presented.

Nah, he went through the trouble to show his work, happy to have the debate.

Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...

Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.

Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...

Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.

It is true that Windriders are overcosted. But that doesn't make Shining Spears balanced. They are way undercosted and extremly efficient against all kind of targets. Combined with the Craftworld Attributes (Saim-Hann or Alaitoc), Stratagems and psychic powers from the codex, they are one of the best units in the game. You can easily charge your enemy with two large units in the first turn. Several top tournament players in Germany use them and I would also build an army around Shining Spears if they had affordable plastic models.

You don't need to have a complex philosophical discussion about every aspect of the game to rate a unit. You can simply use math and common sense.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...

Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.

Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Bikers in general were criminally undercosted in 6th and 7th relative to their advantages over infantry counterparts, especially with Jink. I think GW hasnt quite nailed down their balanxe yet in 8th, an SM bikers feel the pinch as a result, they could use a cost break for sure.

This was not the issue. Only Windriders were undercosted.

Hrm, having TL'd guns, +1T, double the movement range, Turboboost move bonus, Hammer of Wrath I10 autohits, Relentless (particularly coupled with the other advantages here), and Jink on SM bikes over their infantry counterparts for something like 6ppm was pretty ridiculous, Eldar just abused it even more by slapping Scatterlasers on everything

darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.

Scallywag wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah - there is really no point in debating whether SS are OP or not. It's obvious even without the maths - and the math also proves they are out of line with the rest of units of their type and also every unit in the game(ITT). We can debate if water is wet can come up with the same kind of answer like...why are we debating this...water is wet.

Hey we're back to hyperbole and emotional appeal without showing an ounce of your work, way to start off a Monday Xeno.

 Xenomancers wrote:
A base windrider is 23 points. For 8 points you get -
+1 armor save
4++ to shooting
+1 attack
A shooting weapon comparable to a plasma pistol
A CC weapon comparable to a relic blade the turn it charges (after that it's just a power lance with -4 ap and 2 flat damage)

An Exarch with +1W and for +2 points a much superior weapon (At this point it's a chainfist without the -1 to hit combined with a melta gun that rerolls failed wounds vs tanks and monsters)

Totally balanced...

Because it's a unit designed for a completely different purpose with completely different options? I can get 9 Windriders with Scatter Lasers firing at a range of 36" with S6 for less than the cost of the Shining Spears. Is it better, not really, it's different. It's designed to excel against different units.

Your solution is always that it's undercosted, never that a comparable unit is overcosted. Perhaps the fact that we're not seeing SM Bikers in any tournament lists would be an indicator of the latter rather than the former.

It is true that Windriders are overcosted. But that doesn't make Shining Spears balanced. They are way undercosted and extremly efficient against all kind of targets. Combined with the Craftworld Attributes (Saim-Hann or Alaitoc), Stratagems and psychic powers from the codex, they are one of the best units in the game. You can easily charge your enemy with two large units in the first turn. Several top tournament players in Germany use them and I would also build an army around Shining Spears if they had affordable plastic models.

You don't need to have a complex philosophical discussion about every aspect of the game to rate a unit. You can simply use math and common sense.

They aren't actually overcosted ether - they just outclassed by stratagem use with web-way guardians and also by singing spears LOL. Why take a windrider when you can take this OP as gak singing spear for 8 more points.

Scallywag wrote:

darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.

First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.

darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

MSU Spears isn't even the biggest problem. It's 1 big unit of spears getting every buff in the codex and just steamrolling entire armies is a much bigger problem.

You can webway strike them in - hit them with guide/fortune/quicken/protect. At this point you've basically lost the game if they got those spells off. Really though - all they need is quicken (save a command point for that every time)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkarchonlord wrote:

Scallywag wrote:

darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.

First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.

Love this argument..."spears are OP because people don't take melle units" uhh...people don't take melle units because melle units are bad - so just throw that argument out right away. Not to mention - spears totally own melee units with the melle weapons they have but don't actually pay for.

darkarchonlord wrote:

Scallywag wrote:

darkarchonlord wrote:
Looks like the biggest thing people are overlooking that think SS's are OP is that they are basically garbage if they get charged. S3 is horrible and at t4 and only 2 wounds they're going to melt.

People who complain about SS are usually running next to no melee and are mad their gunlines can't burn them down.

That being said, the star lance definitely needs a point increase to decentivize people from taking only MSU's

They need to also not be CW's only answer to hordes. Windriders need a point decrease to make them decent shuriken platforms and something's gotta be buffed that isn't a bike, idk maybe warp spiders.

You should almost always get the first charge with your Shining Spears. If you don't, then it is clearly your own fault. And even if you get charged, they are extremely durable for their point costs. While other units (such as Berserkers or Death Company) simply get wiped out without being able to fight back, Shining Spears can survive and charge again in the next turn with Feigned Retreat.

First charge yes but after that they're toast. As for the stratagem, yes you're right but it's not free and we can't go and treat it as such. I will strongly contend that an army with a decent amount of melee will slaughter shining spears. A unit is not undercosted simply because it's good against the meta. If CC becomes the new meta, you can kiss SS's good bye.

After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.

In the index SS were 43 point and no one used them. Maybe at 31 point they undercosted. Increasing their points back to 40+ will makes sure no one uses them again since everything else in the codex went down in cost. I could see them priced around 36 points.

First, thanks for engaging in a reasonable way. I hope you can help me sharpen my views on this which is influenced by the considerable amount of salt in my eyes.

All of these are opinions and I'm open to hearing counters on all of them. I am by no means a pro-player and a lot of my issues can be a result of my poor play that I'm just not experienced enough to see but...

I stand by my "they should cost 40-45 points" for the following reasons:

You could absolutely surround a Rhino and prevent the unit within from disembarking, assuming there is nothing preventing you from surrounding it, such as, but not limited to: buildings and other terrain, other enemy units, the board edge, not enough movement. In other words, there are multiple variables making this potentially more or less likely.

As stated previously, this is not a function of being Shining Spears, I've had non-biker units do this to me, it's a fairly standard tactic.

Come on man. Any of those scenarios result in the same thing (dead zerkers). Also many of them are mitigated by the spears "fly" ability as they can just move over the rhino/obstacles to surround it while troops without fly have to go around and are more likely to run into movement limitations.

Agreed, it still means you have to get lucky in the shooting phase to actually destroy it in at that point, which is kind of the critical component of the comparison. If you don't destroy it with shooting, then you have to charge it, and if your opponent has positioned it well, then you shouldn't be able to surround it easily and the squad inside should be able to disembark for the most part. Honestly, you only need about 5 Berzerkers to wipe out that whole squad.

True, if you don't destroy it in shooting then you are screwed (5 zerkers are a problem). But this can be mitigated by having access to some of the most powerful shooting models in the game (dark reapers) but that has little bearing on the current conversation.

They will do ~10 damage to the Rhino from pretty much anywhere on the board from which they can draw line of sight. The Shining Spears do it from a range of 22" (if they advance then they can't charge so you would lose that aspect) and have to put themselves in danger of being counter-charged. This is an apples and oranges comparison in a lot of ways. Furthermore, the Berzerkers are by no means guaranteed to kill two Lascannon Predators with their counter-charge, even if you were lackadaisical enough to put them in charge range in the first place.

Bolded the main part. Those preds are limited by LOS while due to the maneuverability of the spears that is less of a concern (not null but significantly reduced). Strategems allow you to advance and change, SfD allows it if you can kill something w/in 7" in shooting, quicken is a thing (3 ways to mitigate this range issue)

Also that 16" move gets you within 75%ish charge range (8"+re-roll) of all but 12" of the board on most deployments. (16 + 8 +12 = 36" on a board that's 48" across) flying over intervening terrain and models. So with 3 units advance+charge strat, quicken spell and either use ynarri or hope your opponent doesn't line up all of his units on his own board edge.

I would argue that that is not a valid comparison you're comparing an AT unit that expects to stay out of hand to hand with a close quarters unit. Also, if we ran the numbers for Shining Spears versus those same Predators, the numbers don't favor the Shining Spears nearly as much.

snip

So you've done 7 wounds to one tank that somehow didn't get to fire at you with it's 48" range, but we'll ignore that, it's certainly possible after all, so you'll end up firing everything and still having to charge to kill 1 Predator.

My point was that they do anti-tank better than dedicated anti-tank and still can do anti-infantry at about 500% efficiency as those anti-tank units. The ability to perform good against a variety of targets is a strength that I feel is strongly underestimated. It allows you to apply your 280 pts of firepower against a target that you will get a reasonable return against vs taking those preds and seeing nothing but reapers across the table (a unit they perform at around 130 PPW vs their approx 40 ppw against t7, 3+ multi wounds)

I feel this further increases the value of the unit as you get full value against hordes, armor/monsters making this a truly TAC unit which makes it nearly twice as valuable per point as a specialist unit.

Those tanks shooting at those spears perform even worse. .5 x .84 x .5 = .21 wounding shots with a .16 chance of that shot not killing a spear or not going to kill a spear in one round of shooting and will kill 1.5 in two rounds of shooting or 2 rounds of shooting = 1 dead spear (not bad for a "fragile" unit and reinforcing my point about the value of TAC units)

Check out my post here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/745775.page to see what kind of gak spears + reapers do. An army running 47 reapers just won the second heat of "the" GT: https://imgur.com/a/HLDw5 https://imgur.com/a/4j1Vc

No SM in the top 10 although nearly 25% (18 of 74) of the field was SM armies (only 5 in the top 30) This is before CA (in which SM best options were nerfed but Eldar were untouched, except for those FW spiders which were OP now maybe slightly over costed)

I think you've just compared models that are not equivalent, that don't even fulfill the same role on the battlefield. It's easy to find bad matchups in the game, but using them as a basis for blanket declarations of inequality is a disingenuous presentation of the facts.

Agree. I compared models that are not equivalent because one model is vastly superior.

I'd argue there are only a couple roles on the battlefield because of the over-simplification of 8th ed rules:
1. survive alpha strikes
2. kill t7+
3. kill MEQ/GEQ
4. deny deep-strike/screen
5. board control
6. tar-pit

Spears do 1,2,3 and 5 so well you don't have to worry about 4 and 6 (no need to screen or tar-pit if your enemy is dead). In order to achieve the efficiency which spears deal with hordes AND armor I'd have to sink points into two different units (neither of which achieve the same level of PPW) and hope my enemy brings targets for both where you just throw spears and reapers on the board and know you can deal with anything from leman russes to hordes.

Alpha strike survival augmented by mobility (out of LOS) strategems (webway) and that 4++ leaving them only really vulnerable to turn 1 melee assaults (which threatens 90% of units and seems to be their only weakness)

I'll agree that they are vulnerable to 1st turn alpha charges which can be mitigated with cheap ranger screens (advanced deployment to keep on your deployment edge) or more expensive guardians

All this adds up to a unit that punches AND survives much better than its 31/33 point per model, especially when compared to the dumpster fire that is the SM codex.

40-45 points doesn't seem unreasonable for a unit that literally has 1 weakness (maybe 2 if you find yourself in melee combat with a unit you didn't kill in your turn but I'm not sure how much that rare situation should count) and is offensively strong against pretty much anything in the game.

[tldr]
Spears kill marines at 20-23 PPW which is about twice as effective as marines kill anything and survive against anything other than 1st turn alpha charges almost as well as anything marines have meaning a 30-50% increase in price is a modest increase. They also perform better in game and under ITC scoring scenarios.

They *might* get a first turn charge (if they don't use webway portal), if they advance, they can't charge. If they're Saim-Hann they have a better chance at a first turn charge because they can re-roll their charge distance and you can use the stratagem to allow them to charge after advancing. This also assumes your opponent is crowding the front line, because if he's not, the only way you're getting that first turn charge is with a stratagem.

Xeno is convinced that a 9 man squad is rolling entire armies, I think the math pretty clearly fails to bear out that hyperbole, but this is the standard argument from him. As usual, hasty generalization, with a little argument from authority (his) thrown in.

As someone pointed out, unless they get the charge, Shining Spears will get rolled by even mediocre melee units.

I mean, I can keep pointing out units that cost less that will destroy them in a single round of firing, would that help? Tank Commander in a Punisher, 215 points, kills 5/9 on average, with one round of firing. There is some radical overselling of Shining Spears durability going on here. I'm sorry, but this belief that a 4++ is the second coming of Magnus is just absurd.

Sorry if I don't get it folks, the math seems pretty obvious, when people were concerned about 50 man conscript squads, the math bore that out, the math just doesn't support the argument that these units are wildly overcosted or OP, or whatever. Are they good? Yes. For 300 points on a single squad, they better be straight gangsta, because that's about 1/6 of your entire army. If you're showing up at the table with 54 Shining Spears thinking you're just going to roll everything on the table, I think you'll be disappointed.

Who knows though, maybe this is the new meta, we'll see it dominating all tournaments going forward. Maybe I'll plan to see this at LVO, but probably not.

After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.

Honestly at that point is a deployment issue. Shining spears do not have unlimited range and do not have enough firepower to clear out everything.

Shining spears aren't even prominent in any of the craftworld lists since, like TwinPole pointed out, a 4++ against shooting really isn't the end-all be-all of protection. Especially for a T4 model with 2 wounds each...

If you want to bitch about an eldar unit, bitch about dark reapers lol. Those are undercosted af and GW made em cheaper in the codex.

edit because I'm an idiot and forgot about grinding advance
So the fact that a unit can be reduced by 55% from one of the most powerful shooting units in the game means that no mater what they cost they can't be OP? OMG tank commanders are great. 40 shots @ bs 3+ s6 and they can give orders w/ t8. Yep razor backs and guilliman are way too powerful

Where's your work on this number btw I get something much different if I give the aldari trait to the spears and assume the tank has to move to get LOS or 24" (you know, the majority of times this will happen)

Heavy bolters x3 (.33 x .66 x .5 x 9 = .98 wounds)
Stubber x1 (.33 x .5 x .33 = .05 wounds)
gatling cannon (.33 x .66 x .33 x 20 = 1.4 x2 = 2.8 wounds) total of 3..8 wounds or one dead spear. after realizing grinding advance then we probably have 2 dead

And then the spears clap back (strat for advance + charge to get w/in range)

7 spears + exarch left (lose wounded spear to over-watch on charge)
shooting spears: .66 x .33 x 7 6 x 2 = 3.04 (2.6) wounds exarch .66 x .75 x 1 x 2 = .99 wounds so 4 3.5

shruken: (.66 x .16 x .397 x 28 = 1.1) + (.66 x .294 x .33 x 4 = rounding error) or another wound so 5 wounds in shooting

charge: .66 x .33 x 2 x 12 = 5 wounds + .66 x .75 x 2 x 3 = 2.97 or another 7 wounds

so 12 (11.5) wounds or one dead tank commander vs 7/9 spears left

Spears go first tank dies.

4++ provides a reasonable amount of protection when combined with -1 to hit (-2 if you want to save the unit, -3 if you really want to save the unit).

I fail to see how this refutes any of the issues brought up in my previous post but if I'm missing the point please let me know. (I'm known to be pedantic in discussions so if there is a larger picture I'm missing please point it out.)

edit: updated numbers to reflect grinding advance, only killed another spear but my god 40 s6 shots for 190 points is bananas

darkarchonlord wrote:

After the charge of two large units of Shining Spears and the shooting of your other units, your opponents army is either dead or enganged in close combat and can't shoot next turn. There are very few armies that can recover from such an assault before their first turn. Lots of armies also don't have good melee units that can counter Shining Spears.

Honestly at that point is a deployment issue. Shining spears do not have unlimited range and do not have enough firepower to clear out everything.

Shining spears aren't even prominent in any of the craftworld lists since, like TwinPole pointed out, a 4++ against shooting really isn't the end-all be-all of protection. Especially for a T4 model with 2 wounds each...

If you want to bitch about an eldar unit, bitch about dark reapers lol. Those are undercosted af and GW made em cheaper in the codex.

One unit can move 16", advance 6" and charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a a threat radius of 24" to 34" (Warriors of the Raging Winds).

Another unit can move 16" twice and then charge 2D6 (re-rollable), giving it a threat radius of 34" to 44" (Quicken).

You can also deep strike up to two units 9,1" away from the enemy. With the Saim-Hann Attribute they have a 50% chance to get into combat (Webway Strike).

Oh, did I mention that they can even fly over other units?

Hardly a deployment issue if you ask me.

Dark Reapers are good, but Shining Spears deal way more damage against (almost) all targets, are so much more resilient and have an insane mobility. A 4++ is fantastic for a T4 2W model that only costs 31 points can be buffed with up to -3 to hit and a 5+++ on top of that. People in your meta "failing" to use them, doesn't make Shining Spears less overpowered.

That unit is so broken, it is not even funny.

You can even deep strike a unit and cast Quicken on it for an almost 100% guaranteed charge turn 1 (using Concordance of Power, Seer Council and/or a re-roll if necessary).

 Xenomancers wrote:


Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.

you missed the part where very few people are taking guardians because the cost of them is too expensive vs their own toughness and range. guardians are over costed by about 2ppm, which with your example makes windriders overcost by ~4ppm

the other problem you have singularly failed to account for is also a problem in space marine armies: multi-wound models in this edition of multi-damage weapons are inherently WORSE than a larger number of single-wound models with an equivalent cost and number of wounds. Why? because each time a multi-damage weapon hits the W1 unit, it doesn't get a chance to 'roll over' and take out more points for each hit, and reduces unit effectiveness more slowly. This is a big reason why guard are doing fairly well right now, they have lots of cheap bodies that protect the bit of the unit that actually does the work, the special and heavy weapon.


I will concede that a large chunk of the marine codex is underperforming currently without using character buffs, so they're also a terrible unit roster to compare against and need buffs themselves.

 clodax66 wrote:
In the index SS were 43 point and no one used them. Maybe at 31 point they undercosted. Increasing their points back to 40+ will makes sure no one uses them again since everything else in the codex went down in cost. I could see them priced around 36 points.

The index was terrible...

Didn't have quicken - didn't have web-way stratagem - didn't have charge after assault stratgem - didn't have siamhan or aliotoc traits - didn't have protect warlock power ether. My Siamhan buddy still used them and won most of his games with them. He thinks it's hilarious they dropped in points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WindstormSCR wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Okay...so now wind-riders are over-costed.

A windrider is a guardian - basically 2 guardians stacked up on each other.
Gardian 8x2 = 16.
23(windrider) - 16 (2 guardians) = 7
So for 7 points with a windrider you get -
+1 armor save (this is worth 2-3 points)
Auto 6 inch advance move (well call it 1 point)
+9 inch movement (A little bit better than a jetpack which costs 3 points typically)
Edit*** Almost forgot (THEY EVEN GET +1 T - worth 2-3 points on a 2 wound model)

This is what a non OP unit looks like. See how it pays for all of it's attributes? Seems about worth it.

you missed the part where very few people are taking guardians because the cost of them is too expensive vs their own toughness and range. guardians are over costed by about 2ppm, which with your example makes windriders overcost by ~4ppm

the other problem you have singularly failed to account for is also a problem in space marine armies: multi-wound models in this edition of multi-damage weapons are inherently WORSE than a larger number of single-wound models with an equivalent cost and number of wounds. Why? because each time a multi-damage weapon hits the W1 unit, it doesn't get a chance to 'roll over' and take out more points for each hit, and reduces unit effectiveness more slowly. This is a big reason why guard are doing fairly well right now, they have lots of cheap bodies that protect the bit of the unit that actually does the work, the special and heavy weapon.


I will concede that a large chunk of the marine codex is underperforming currently without using character buffs, so they're also a terrible unit roster to compare against and need buffs themselves.

Gardians are a fine unit. bladestorm and the ability to advance and shoot with no penalty is amazing when combined with doom and hitting on 2+ with ulthwe stratagem. Honestly - I've played my ulthwe 3 times and never once was I close to losing a game and I play with 40 guardians. Since then I've been playing nids and they are stong but I think eldar are much stronger. Guardians are properly pointed. Things like AM infantry units are just under-pointed.

bananathug wrote:
So the fact that a unit can be reduced by 55% from one of the most powerful shooting units in the game means that no mater what they cost they can't be OP?

My point is that there are any number of decent shooting units that for the same points would cripple or destroy Shining Spears without ever being threatened by their hand to hand.

bananathug wrote:
Where's your work on this number btw I get something much different if I give the aldari trait to the spears and assume the tank has to move to get LOS or 24" (you know, the majority of times this will happen)

Fair enough:
Punisher - no re-rolls - double-tapping = ~6 wounds (5.93 wounds with a 2.25 deviation)
Heavy Bolters - no re-rolls = ~2 wounds (2.00 with a 1.25 deviation)
Heavy Stubber - no re-rolls = ~1 wound if you're lucky (0.33 wounds with a .54 deviation)
So on average 9 wounds, roughly half the squad dead.

Cadian -
Punisher - double-tapping = ~7 wounds (6.91 with a 2.39 deviation)
Heavy Bolters = ~2 wounds (2.33 wounds with a 1.31 deviation)
Heavy Stubber = ~1 wound if you're lucky (0.39 with a .58 deviation)

bananathug wrote:
4++ provides a reasonable amount of protection when combined with -1 to hit (-2 if you want to save the unit, -3 if you really want to save the unit).

Potentially, but now you're moving the goalposts. How much support structure should I count on being in place when I make my comparisons? Can I assume psyker support? Regimental doctrine? Legion traits? Buff auras? I mean we can go down this rabbit hole forever. I agree that the units have to be viewed contextually within their own army environment, but if that's the case now we're down to comparing army lists and that's another matter entirely.

Honestly, I got into this argument because nobody was actually making a sound argument, everybody was running around screaming that the sky was falling, which is clearly not the case. Sadly, I don't even really care that much at the end of the day, this unit doesn't bother me for a single list that I've built, even the silly ones where I just want to play around with a niche unit. It's going to charge and destroy 1 thing and then it will be erased, assuming it can't be shot on the first turn and there aren't more interesting targets. I would be more inclined to agree if this was coming from the standpoint of how do we get bikes that aren't eldar on the table, because currently, nobody's playing that crap. Instead, the logic that gets thrown around here is to price it out of existence instead.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
They *might* get a first turn charge (if they don't use webway portal), if they advance, they can't charge. If they're Saim-Hann they have a better chance at a first turn charge because they can re-roll their charge distance and you can use the stratagem to allow them to charge after advancing. This also assumes your opponent is crowding the front line, because if he's not, the only way you're getting that first turn charge is with a stratagem.

Xeno is convinced that a 9 man squad is rolling entire armies, I think the math pretty clearly fails to bear out that hyperbole, but this is the standard argument from him. As usual, hasty generalization, with a little argument from authority (his) thrown in.

As someone pointed out, unless they get the charge, Shining Spears will get rolled by even mediocre melee units.

I mean, I can keep pointing out units that cost less that will destroy them in a single round of firing, would that help? Tank Commander in a Punisher, 215 points, kills 5/9 on average, with one round of firing. There is some radical overselling of Shining Spears durability going on here. I'm sorry, but this belief that a 4++ is the second coming of Magnus is just absurd.

Sorry if I don't get it folks, the math seems pretty obvious, when people were concerned about 50 man conscript squads, the math bore that out, the math just doesn't support the argument that these units are wildly overcosted or OP, or whatever. Are they good? Yes. For 300 points on a single squad, they better be straight gangsta, because that's about 1/6 of your entire army. If you're showing up at the table with 54 Shining Spears thinking you're just going to roll everything on the table, I think you'll be disappointed.

Who knows though, maybe this is the new meta, we'll see it dominating all tournaments going forward. Maybe I'll plan to see this at LVO, but probably not.

It's rolled my Nids 3 times in a row - they average about 400 points of damage the turn they come in. Plus they tie up additional units and I have to waste 2-3 units to make sure they die (and even then the exarch usually lives after all that) - and then the joys of being shot at for another turn from an eldar army without getting into the core of their army.

Admittedly - he always gets quicken off which is under a 75% chance with a reroll - but he wouldn't even need quicken if he started on the table - which he doesn't do because I would focus them down turn 1 if he didn't (we play chapter approved with a +1 to the roll to go first). I play a stong nid army too - lots of geenstealers - hive tyrants - and carnifex. There is nothing I can do about this unit.

So, what if - for some reason - the cost went up...and your opponent still took the same units, and just skipped a Warlock or diminished a guardian squad, what's your plan then? As far as we can see you're the only one being rolled every game by Shining Spears.

More importantly - have you told your opponent you don't enjoy it? Asked him to consider modifying his list? Or are you just fuming and complaining online to everyone else but your actual opponent?

Spears are the answer to the question, "What do you get when you take a Banshee, then double its movement (+ Fly!), strength, wounds,and damage, then give it +1 T/Sv, -1 AP, an invulnerable save against shooting, and some crazy awesome guns, all for less than 2.5x the cost?" The Spear also trades off Acrobatic and the Banshee Mask for the Saim-Hann attribute, Ride the Wind, and the Warriors of the Raging Winds Strategem. Now, let's take a look at some points per wound numbers, shall we?

5HBEE 5 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner
5StScESC 5 Striking Scorpions w/Exarch, Scorpion's Claw

GEQ T3, 5+, W1
MEQ T4, 3+, W1
TEQ T4, 3+, 5++, W2
BEQ T5, 3+, W2
LVEQ T6, 3+, W6
MVEQ T7, 3+, W12
HVEQ T8, 3+, W12

********************GEQ****MEQ****TEQ****BEQ*****LVEQ***MVEQ***HVEQ
5HBEE (melee)****17.00***29.38***29.61***28.25***36.72***36.72***52.46
5StScESC (melee)*15.93***27.17***27.28***29.78***28.20***43.41***51.49
Spear (shooting)***16.41***27.90***29.89***24.62***26.16***32.19***38.05
Spear (melee)******27.90***34.88***26.16***17.44***23.25***34.88***34.88
Spear (combined)**10.33***15.50***13.95***10.21***12.31***16.74***18.20

[Incidentally, can anyone tell me how to make a table on DakkaDakka without this awful formatting? The coding that works on 40kOnline and TheWarmaster40k doesn't work here.]

With the exception of fighting GEQs in melee, Spears are comparable or superior to Banshees or Scorpions with just their shooting or melee alone. I didn't bother with the shooting for the Banshees or the Scorpions because a single Spear can outshoot either of those 5-model squads. Their shooting does enough damage that you don't even care if they don't charge every other turn. If you get to shoot and charge with them, Spears are overall the most destructive unit in the Codex. Don't even get me started on the Shining Spear Exarch...

 Elbows wrote:
So, what if - for some reason - the cost went up...and your opponent still took the same units, and just skipped a Warlock or diminished a guardian squad, what's your plan then? As far as we can see you're the only one being rolled every game by Shining Spears.

More importantly - have you told your opponent you don't enjoy it? Asked him to consider modifying his list? Or are you just fuming and complaining online to everyone else but your actual opponent?

I have no idea what you are talking about in your first statement - spears went down in points dramatically...They were already one of the best options in the index.
Top 3 units in the index were in this order
Hemlock (went up slightly because you have to pay for spirit stones)
Shiningspears (got way cheaper)
Dark Reapers (got cheaper)

Your second statement - it's not about enjoyment - we are competitive and we seek to obliterate each other - after 3 thrashings like that though I am not bringing nids against him for some time now. Not until something changes - I'll just play my eldar against him - forwarned gives me a chance against them.

I'm saying, what do you suggest is the solution? Even if they went back up to 40+ points a model...if he still takes them, what were you planning on doing? I've played with Shining Spears in numerous games and never had anyone who couldn't find a relatively expeditous way to kill a handful of toughness 4 models. They're not robust at all...I suspect maybe nerfing Shining Spears needs to take a back seat to better army management/tactics.

I don't understand how people (especially Nid players) don't just screen against them. Sure they're fast but a carpet of 80 bodies can literally eliminate potential venues of attack until your turn.