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 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?

I would prefer a new type of tank. We need more traditional necron type units, that follow the same aesthetic design of the monolith and have a nice save and toughness value.
The 5th ed vehicles are good models, but they aren't quite consistent with previously shown necron vehicles (the monolith) and aren't really consistent with their lore, as why would a race obsessed with avoiding death design their military vehicles to be so fragile with such weak points?
Quantum Shielding is irrelevant, as such a race would still design their combat vehicles to have no obvious weak-points. An energy shield that could fail is not as reliable as a nice, solid metal plate. Imagine if the Isrealis designed their Merkava tanks with glass panels instead of steel, and tried claiming it was safe because it has flares. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
A nice, geometric looking necron vehicle with T7-T8, 10+ wounds and a 3+ save would be great. Something like a floating sphere or maybe even something that has a similar profile to an egyptian scarab (but not obviously so, just similarly inspired).



The existing vehicles don't need to be stronger. For one thing, that would not solve the target priority problem, and their statline already accurately reflects their appearance.

some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.

I love Necrons fluff / models and it would be awesome if GW will fix them to be competitive.

I'm thinking for now running 6x8 bases of Scarabs, 3x20 Warriors, cryptek, ghost arks.

So just have a lot of bodies.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.

Necrons had amazing Offense in 6th edition and then amazing defense in 7th edition.

7th Edition nerfed their offense.
8th Edition nerfed their defense.

Reanimation Protocols may be a "unique" but it a terrible mechanic, much like Necron Phase Out was.

A 1500-2000 point army can concentrate its attacks and obliterate a unit with RP before it ever gets to roll for RP.

"Gauss" does nothing more now than a mere -1 to saves. The Boltguns of the Primaris Space Marines are better than the advanced Xenos technology of the Gauss Rifle.

All of the transport options for Necrons are inferior to any standard transport.

I agree, i feel like Gauss lost all fluff. Does not feel like necronish

 adamsouza wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
some really good suggestions in this thread that while some are very wishlisty, there are several that would really help give necrons that much needed boost.

I've still got my necron army that was shelved towards the end of 5th edition, really hoping this codex will be enough to bring them back.

"Gauss" does nothing more now than a mere -1 to saves. The Boltguns of the Primaris Space Marines are better than the advanced Xenos technology of the Gauss Rifle.

Agreed that Gauss is a bit lacking now. Maybe perhaps in addition to the standard -1 AP, if you roll a 6+ to wound then it does -3AP instead? Would definitely help bring back that feel that Gauss is deadly on the table compared to other small arms fire. Or maybe even D3 Damage if the target has the Vehicle keyword on a would roll of 6

How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.

I, too, have wishes.


Keep RP as it is but get rid of the morale clause, most people don't even remember to reinforce it and it's just needless extra book keeping in an edition dedicated to getting rid of needless extra book keeping.

Have res orbs be an expensive one-use item that targets a unit with rp that has been wiped out, that whole unit gets to make rp rolls again this turn and come back onto the board within 6" of the character holding the orb.

Give lychguard shields a new special rule that makes nearby friendly units - to hit and the lychguard themselves + to hit. Make up some bs about contained controlled black holes inside the shields that curve projectiles away from other units and towards the shields. Reduce their strength to 4 to make them more thematically tough and make them cheaper, do the same to preatorians but reversed, st5 t4, to emphasis their ambush assault specialty.

Take the +1 to rp roll rule away from crypteks and give it to spyders, make both much much cheaper. Like I don't think being fully half their current cost is too extreme.

Give deathmarks anti psyker tech to expand their niche and because their weird cyclops eye reminds me of pariahs.

Phase out wraiths and catacomb command barges. Release a new destroyer kit with not only the heavy and lord variants included but a new particle weapon option and a melee flayer virus afflicted option that is functionally a wraith and tailor made to run around with a destroyer lord as an assault bomb that hammer and anvils with flayed one deep strikes. Cut flayed one costs, bump their maximum unit size to 30 so they aren't as reliant on non-deepstriking support units like crypteks/spyders to keep their RP healthy. Probably take away one of their attacks, make sure mono flayed one lists aren't good but whole flayer curse themed armies can be.

Phase out ghost arks and replace them with nothing. Fix the teleportation rules on the scythe and monolith, they're more flavorful than the warrior wagon which has always looked questionable at best and has way way too much mechanical overlap with, like, everything in the army from reanimation to transportation to anti infantry tank.

Release a new medium vehicle kit that's aesthetically similar to a monolith and can take a tesla destructor or a doomsday cannon to functionally keep doomsday arks and anni barges around even though their kit partners, ghost arks and command barges, are phasing out.

Do something more thematic with particle weapons. Now that templates are gone they have a little too much in common with tesla weapons. Try either making them more clearly the 'this sucks but is dirt cheap' option, or make them the reverse of tesla weapons by having low strength and great ap, or keep their middle of the road stats but give them the tomb blade nebuloscope upgrade to ignore cover as a built in function. Something.

Bring back cool character wargear.

 Actinium wrote:
I, too, have wishes.


Keep RP as it is but get rid of the morale clause, most people don't even remember to reinforce it and it's just needless extra book keeping in an edition dedicated to getting rid of needless extra book keeping.

Even though there's many ways to mitigate morale it still fills a function when fighting horde armies.

Have res orbs be an expensive one-use item that targets a unit with rp that has been wiped out, that whole unit gets to make rp rolls again this turn and come back onto the board within 6" of the character holding the orb.

The res orb idea is good and i think that the current price is expensive.

Give lychguard shields a new special rule that makes nearby friendly units - to hit and the lychguard themselves + to hit. Make up some bs about contained controlled black holes inside the shields that curve projectiles away from other units and towards the shields. Reduce their strength to 4 to make them more thematically tough and make them cheaper, do the same to preatorians but reversed, st5 t4, to emphasis their ambush assault specialty.

Why not give the Lychguard the same rule as Ad Mech robots. Their shield bounces back mortal wounds on sixes. Makes you opponent think twice before shooting them. 2+ save would also be nice on the LG since they are so slow. Both the Lychguard and Praetorians needs be be cheaper. Praetorians needs a 12" move.

Take the +1 to rp roll rule away from crypteks and give it to spyders, make both much much cheaper. Like I don't think being fully half their current cost is too extreme.

I kind of like the way Crypteks are currently just add all the Harbringers and gear instead. Spyders should perhaps give Scarabs RP instead of the current rule. Make that particle caster a bit better and lower the Spyders price by a lot.

Give deathmarks anti psyker tech to expand their niche and because their weird cyclops eye reminds me of pariahs.

Deathmarks with gloom prisms would be a good idea.

Phase out wraiths and catacomb command barges. Release a new destroyer kit with not only the heavy and lord variants included but a new particle weapon option and a melee flayer virus afflicted option that is functionally a wraith and tailor made to run around with a destroyer lord as an assault bomb that hammer and anvils with flayed one deep strikes.

I like Wraiths and CBB's. Just give the CBB's a lot more options and revise the rules and points costs for Wraith wargear.
New kits for Destroyers with CC Destroyers and other weapons options would be amazing.

Cut flayed one costs, bump their maximum unit size to 30 so they aren't as reliant on non-deepstriking support units like crypteks/spyders to keep their RP healthy. Probably take away one of their attacks, make sure mono flayed one lists aren't good but whole flayer curse themed armies can be.

The Flayed ones are good as they are just cut their cost and add a nice stratagem for them.

Phase out ghost arks and replace them with nothing. Fix the teleportation rules on the scythe and monolith, they're more flavorful than the warrior wagon which has always looked questionable at best and has way way too much mechanical overlap with, like, everything in the army from reanimation to transportation to anti infantry tank.

I agree that Ghost Arks are in a weird spot right now, but I also like the way they function by boosting RP. Perhaps remove their transporting capability and lower their cost by many many points. Transporting 10 Warriors and no characters is not good. The Ghost Ark could also have a rule to bring back wiped Warrior units since it's currently repairing them.

Release a new medium vehicle kit that's aesthetically similar to a monolith and can take a tesla destructor or a doomsday cannon to functionally keep doomsday arks and anni barges around even though their kit partners, ghost arks and command barges, are phasing out.

New models are always welcome, but leave the CCB alone.

Do something more thematic with particle weapons. Now that templates are gone they have a little too much in common with tesla weapons. Try either making them more clearly the 'this sucks but is dirt cheap' option, or make them the reverse of tesla weapons by having low strength and great ap, or keep their middle of the road stats but give them the tomb blade nebuloscope upgrade to ignore cover as a built in function. Something.

I agree, they are boring and worse than tesla and gauss in every way.

Bring back cool character wargear.

Yeah, an invul or -1 damage could work.
Still want to see more proper necron combat vehicles though

I don't agree with phasing out (heh) Ghost Arks and CCB.
Ghost Arks actually have an interesting bit of fluff and justification for why they look so fragile for a necron vehicle - it was originally a necrontyr corpse wagon, a civilian vehicle that was repurposed to be a repair vehicle. This provides a rare insight into necrontyr culture as well has how much has changed after they became necrons.
In terms of gameplay I like the concept of a repair vehicle, and I would like to see them expand on that concept; get rid of the transport rule (why ride like a primitive when you can teleport?) and make it dedicated to repairing.

I don't really like the design of the CCB and I don't use it, but I do like the concept of a command vehicle and I still wouldn't want to see it removed.

-3 AP against vehicles sound like a more faithful adaptation of the gauss rule than the current one, well.
I think +1 damage might be more useful overall though

 adamsouza wrote:
How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.

This is the right idea. Gauss used to be our answer to vehicles, and we had plenty of easy ways to drop a squad in and rapid fire it down. AP-4 on a 5 or 6 vs vehicles would give Warriors, for example, the same output vs vehicles we used to have. Simple Mathhammer shows - 20 rapid fire shots = 13/14 hits = 4/5 AP-4 wounds. Hardly game breaking.

My other thoughts:
- The changes to the cover mechanic have utterly ruined Tesla. Tesla should deny cover.
- Obviously give transports the transport keyword - NOBODY will take one Doom Scythe and expect it to last a second turn to deliver its guys
- Why do Necrons pay for RP when SO MANY other armies get FNP or other (cheap and easy) ways to boost durability - e.g. Eldar -1 to hit legion trait, casting fortune, Asurman gives Dire Avengers 4+ invul etc. RP SHOULD NOT be costed into our units, its simply our own version of durability
- Points drops across the board. 75pts for a Heavy gauss Destroyer? Thats 25pts per T5 wound!!? For that they should be Heavy 2 weapons.
- Our HQs whiff so badly compared to those from other armies, obv auras should be a bubble, not only applied to one unit, and even the hth specialists get less attacks than everybody elses?
- We need stratagems to get charges off with our 'assault' units, e.g. Lychguard. They NEVER make it into combat before they're shot to pieces. A stratagem for a 3d6 charge with those, or Flayed Ones is needed, like Daemons just got
- Wraiths are AWFUL in combat. Need extra attacks or better weaponry. I recently charged a squad of 5 basic marines with 3 Wraiths and lost a combat without even rolling badly.
- Our overall output is lacking badly - another stratagem to shoot twice would help
- It is nigh on impossible to build a balanced list and get more than 6 CPs. We need another troop option or Warrior and Immortal points costs to come down or certain HQs to grant extra CPs if chosen as our WL

Even just these basic changes without messing with the RP mechanic would do the job...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?

I would prefer a new type of tank. We need more traditional necron type units, that follow the same aesthetic design of the monolith and have a nice save and toughness value.
The 5th ed vehicles are good models, but they aren't quite consistent with previously shown necron vehicles (the monolith) and aren't really consistent with their lore, as why would a race obsessed with avoiding death design their military vehicles to be so fragile with such weak points?
Quantum Shielding is irrelevant, as such a race would still design their combat vehicles to have no obvious weak-points. An energy shield that could fail is not as reliable as a nice, solid metal plate. Imagine if the Isrealis designed their Merkava tanks with glass panels instead of steel, and tried claiming it was safe because it has flares. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
A nice, geometric looking necron vehicle with T7-T8, 10+ wounds and a 3+ save would be great. Something like a floating sphere or maybe even something that has a similar profile to an egyptian scarab (but not obviously so, just similarly inspired).

Spoiler:

The existing vehicles don't need to be stronger. For one thing, that would not solve the target priority problem, and their statline already accurately reflects their appearance.

FW makes a couple of Canoptek MC constructs. Are any of those bulky enough to have a statline of a Main Battle Tank? I would not hold out hoping that GW introduces a new unit to fill the niche, as new releases for xenos are notoriously inconsistent at actually solving problems. If nothing that already exists fills the role then maybe the Monolith is fated to remain an outlier, until the rest of the Necron arsenal gets some new toys.

As for Gauss weaponry it needs to be able to threaten vehicles. Right now Tesla weapons are the choice for massed fire, which is an annoying reversal from previous editions. I like giving Gauss an additional AP modifier on sixes, but there are probably other solutions.

I think the tomb stalker variants are pretty tanky, but I'm not sure.

There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.

Sentinel seems great for hunting down AM artillery gunline in the far end of the board, shoot and charge in

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

Their "psykers" are C'tan, which I think will probably get more than just offensive powers in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
How about Gauss weapons become AP -3 against anything with the Vehicle Keyword? They would still only wound on a 5 or 6 and the single wound would be like the glancing hits of old.

They're not much fluff reason for this. Their guns aren't haywire weapons.

The really fluffy thing would to have gauss weapons do a mortal wound on a 6, I think. Probably OP though

How about this simple change to address Reanimation:

Reanimation Protocols: Remains as is.

Phase-out: After dealing all wounds that would wipe a unit with this rule, but before removing the last model in that unit, make one reanimation protocol roll for each model in the unit that has been removed as a casualty. Place them in coherency with the model left on the table following the reanimation protocol rules. If no models pass their reanimation protocols, remove that last model from the game as a casualty. All models that fail cannot make any more reanimation protocols that game. If a Character is returned in this manner, it returns with half it's wounds attribute, rounded up.

Add Reanimation Protocol to all Necron Characters.

This makes it so that the ruling will always have some effect on the game. It is still very unique and feels right, wiping ut Necrons would mean dedicating several rounds of Shooting/CC on them as they just keep coming back, but in dwingling numbers. It would also make our characters a little beefier, since they can return even from the most grievous wounds.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.

Good comparison. I was looking at these 2 and trying to decide on which on.e Honestly, you could probably just get one and feild it either way, most people cant really tell the difference. Its the benefit of being xenos, all your guns look wierd. What about the Tesserack Ark, any good? And whats the difference between all these Pylons?

 Dynas wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There are 2, basically the same thing, one is more of AT (Sentinel) where other is more AI (Stalker). They both can DS and have Living Metal. Stalker is Elite other is Fast.

They both have the same Characteristics but the Stalker has 2 more Melee attacks than the Sentinel, the Sentinel needs more space for his big gun and i think thats why he has less attacks.

All their weapons (melee and range) are free, you can take a Gloom Prism for cheap

So i dont break rules i'll be vague, both are around 160-190pts (give and take 5-10pts or so) The Sentinel is 15pts more than the Stalker.

Stalker is basically a Rabid Fire HB
Sentinel is a D6 S10 with some ap and 3 damage
Melee for both is the same, 2ap D3
They are as tough as a Rhino with 2 less wounds with SM WS/BS

IMO for the points in Competitive they are not worth it (maybe the Sentinel is worth it), especially the Stalker, if that was 120pts? Maybe, if you can kill a Rhino you can kill one of these guys.
I have one b.c its a cool model, i got the Stalker but i Wish i have the Sentinel D6 S10 makes it worth taking.

Good comparison. I was looking at these 2 and trying to decide on which on.e Honestly, you could probably just get one and feild it either way, most people cant really tell the difference. Its the benefit of being xenos, all your guns look wierd. What about the Tesserack Ark, any good? And whats the difference between all these Pylons?

I personally never looked into those 2 units until now, but the Pylons i believe went up by 75pts points in CA.

Looking at the units in the book tho, The Pylon is a Macro 1D6 that does7-9 damage, for 500pts+ IDK if that is worth killing 1 vehicle a turn (maybe), heck it cant even kill a Rhino in 1 shot with perfect roles, it does give all Necros an Invul, it doesnt even have QS on it, not worth unless you fighting titian's IMO

Tesserack didnt get changed in CA, around 250pts, SQ with a either 2 Gauss or Tesla cannons and its special gun (Teesark chamber) its pick 1 of 3 type weapons, basically D6 lascannon, 24" D6, s5, high ap 3d, or a 2+ poison flamer with ap.

I'd rather have the Tessarck. It is a "fly" vehicle so you can easily place it in good areas/terrain/fallback and shoot.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
My take on this - RP should occur at the end of every Phase OR a unit should get the chance to RP if it would be wiped (like how in 7th Tzeentch Horrors were able to split before they were wiped).

Occurring each Phase is the simpler of the two, so its probably the better option.


It would also be great if Necrons got a stratagem along similar line to the once Daemons just got, where they can resurrect a unit that died earlier without Reinforcement points with other restrictions(the Daemon one requires Grey Knights to slay the unit, but that doesn't really fit with Necrons). Maybe something like:

3 CP - Use when a friendly NECRON unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is destroyed.
The destroyed unit is returned to the battlefield at full strength. Set the unit up so that it is both more than
9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 6" of a friendly Monolith. In Matched Play the returned unit does
not cost Reinforcement Points.

In regard to your proposal, I suggest this for the Reserrection Orb

"When a unit with RP is destroyed within 6 inches of a model with Reserrection Orb in any phase, that unit can still roll for RP at the end of the phase".

It might feels too OP, because it make the units standing near Orb model therotically completely unkillable, since on average there will always been 1/3 of the RP roll being 5+, i.e. there will always been 1/3 of the Necrons come back on their feet on the table. It might be compensated by raising the Pts cost of the Orb, or limit it to "once per turn" or "once per unit per turn" (i.e., enemy have a choice to shoot all them down in shooting phase, 1/3 of the unit come back, but then get charged and all get chopped down in combat, then they are all gone finally).

Or just keep it as one use.
The problem with the res orb that as a one use 35 point item all it does it allow rerolls.
Allowing units to come back from getting wiped might make it worthwhile.