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Made in us
Pious Palatine




 auticus wrote:
I guess to me if there's an option but one that is never picked, to me it shouldn't exist at all.

Its like the spells. The old randomized spells existed because GW knew people would always choose the same one or two spells everytime, which is also happening now with mind razor and pit of shades.


No? Why are people hyping up using pit of shades? Lot of dispossessed players in your group? The spells have a priority system based on what list you're using them with and the fact that people in your group use pit of shades tells me that plenty of people think that priority system is very different.

Yes mindrazor is always the top but all the other spells have their place and different people find different spells to be best. Apparently your group thinks pit of shades is good whereas TGA has pretty unanimously agreed it's in the bottom two. For that group over there Shroud of despair is the second best spell in most lists with Mirrordance(amazing in Khellebron Morathi lists) and Steed of Shadows(very specific applications) being next. The withering and pit of shades are considered to be about on par and inferior to the others simply because they don't really accomplish much and there are better options. DoK don't usually have very many spell casts available and so have to maximize their impact. The Doomfire warlocks signature spell for example is superior to PoS in most situations and while it can't highroll like PoS can, it's does more damage on average than PoS even against Move 4"(3 vs 3.5). Standard DoK lists have between 2-3 spell casters and most lists will be Mindrazor, Shroud of despair, [OTHER]. If your list is using doomfire warlocks, it makes PoS largely irrelevant.

My personal opinion is that the only way I would take PoS is if I was doing a gimmick Morathi Balewind thing and even then I'm pretty sure I'd be disappointed.

Which one is correct is heavily meta dependent as well as list dependent, and the fact that there is such a massive difference in opinion across different play groups tells me that in this particular case you're wrong not only about what spells are best but also about the value of spells that only have specific applications.

Here's a specific example of Mirrordance being the best spell available to your second caster with shroud being 3rd and PoS being a POS :

Khalebron temple+Morathi with mindrazor+2 Hag Queens+Cauldron+BloodWrack with Mirrordance+ Bloodwrack with shroud. Turn 1 Khailebron jump Bloodwrack with Shroud to 9" away from enemy but within 24" of Bloodwrack. Transform Morathi. Cast Mindrazor on Morathi. Put Blessing of Khaine, Catachism of Murder, and Sacrement of Blood on Morathi, Cast shroud on unit you want dead, Mirrordance Morathi with the bloodwrack. Move Morathi 14" over your opponents screening units, charge over other screening units. Congratz you just did right around 25 wounds to a 3+ save first turn from literally the back board edge. If you high-roll shroud you could concievably ace a treelord ancient and Allarielle through a shield of dryads.


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





No? Why are people hyping up using pit of shades?


Because against any units that have a 6" or less movement, you have the ability to cause a fair amount of mortal wounds. It seems that that is something people are super fixated on.
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






It's that casting value 7 that's the problem.

Unassisted the spell deals at least one mortal wound on an orc or human infantry unit (that's 5", what's the slowest unit in AoS?) only 42% of the time, a unit with 6" is hurt 34% of the time, 7" 24% of the time.

In contrast SoD potentially adds 1-3 models slain on battleshock, opens up potential targets for mindrazor, and goes off 91% of the time unassisted.

   
Made in us
Clousseau




Part of the problem is that GW makes most of the spells so stupidly easy to go off that that becomes expected.

But I believe I saw an item that gave +1 to casting as well somewheres.
   
Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions






Doom fire is far stronger than PoS. It has an easier casting value. It has the same range. Doom fire will always do at least D3 in comparison to PoS which needs to beat movement, making it do 0 damage against faster units. Against larger units you automatically do 6 mortal wounds while PoS still needs to highroll against low movement.

5,000 Raven Guard
3,000 Night Lords  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Pit of Shades seems great for foot-character sniping IMO. Or is just generally awesome against Nurgle, of which there is a lot at the moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just started combing through the options in detail, and holy crap why is no one talking about how awesome Temple Nest is? Seems totally OP at that cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After further combing, the point costs overall look pretty good (sidenote, the path to glory tables as well) and a big shoutout to the massive unit discount being used in an effective/balanced way. Also glad they have resumed having a good chunk of battalion/theme force options. Overall very impressed with this book, good job GW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/14 07:50:08


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Yeah, I rather like it to. Succinct and to the point, with the subfactions being a mix of special rules, a change to a battalion, and a mandatory customization somewhere rather than a stacked battalion setup like Sylvaneth.

My only outstanding questions are that stuff about the shrines and cauldrons...

But yes, Temple Nest is delish. Our local GW manager wants to run two of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Me, I'm wondering about the bladed bucklers. Has anyone mathed out their effectiveness on witch aelves and sisters o' slaughter?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/14 20:33:46


   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






There's a thread in the other sub forum discussing bucklers, I go into so light math but also other reasoning. Personally I am thinking bucklers are the better option overall, with daggers more useful on small flank units.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Joystick there's a separate thread on that topic here
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/752573.page

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Sanctus Slipping in His Blade






Anyone have a guess as to which base size the Avatar of Khaine on foot is supposed to have. With all the characters I have from my Cauldron kits I wanted one of each version...

A ton of armies and a terrain habit...


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The box doesn't come with a base for him, but if you use the 40k version as a reference it's on a 40mm. I personally bought a 50mm for it since it just looks better.

Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 dracpanzer wrote:
Anyone have a guess as to which base size the Avatar of Khaine on foot is supposed to have. With all the characters I have from my Cauldron kits I wanted one of each version...

The pics from GW seem to put it on a 40mm. That's what I did with mine. It's a tiny bit too small for my liking, but I use Shattered Dominion bases and the next bigger one is 65mm, which is way too big.
50mm, like mmzero252 used, is probably a good option too.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran







As a reference, I slightly angled the legs and one foot into a walking pose and at his scale he fits perfectly on the 50mm base.

Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord





England

Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Please don’t necro to ask if there’s been any news.
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Souleater wrote:
Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.

2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.

Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
 Souleater wrote:
Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.

2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.

Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.

That's a lot more than 1,000 pts. The Blood coven box alone is ~650pts if you take all the heroes.
Sadly, unless your warlord is a Bloodwrack medusa, only wych elves are battleline. And given how expensive the kit is, you kinda have to buy them with a cauldron.
For 1,000pts, I would say: blood coven box, a melusai box (built with the bows so they're battleline with a medusa warlord), 1 kinerai box and a warlock box. That's actually 1,020pts, but you have one of each kit, so it's pretty good for modeling, and two battleline.
So basically the same thing as Kanluwen, divided by two (he probably though you asked for a 2,000pts list).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/22 14:59:34


 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






 Souleater wrote:
Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.


I'm starting with the bloodwrack medusa, two units of sisters, two units of stalkers, and two units of heartrenders.

Running the snakes in a temple nest battalion that's three drops at 980 points.

Downside, it's basically the opposite of what I'd call 'core' unless you intend to double up on temple nests.

My plan going forward is to build the Slaughter and Hag Queens, one of them on the cauldron depending on if it's allowed by the battalion requirements and fill in the core with witch aelves and sisters of slaughter until they can form a Draichi Ganeth slaughter troupe.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

fresus wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Souleater wrote:
Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.

2 of the "Blood Coven" boxes.
A pair of Melusai boxes.
Pair of Kinerai boxes.
Pair of Doomfire Warlock boxes.

Might sound like a lot but the Blood Coven boxes get you 2x Shrines/Cauldrons and all the parts within them allowing for you to have some wiggle room in there and a pair of Witch Aelf/Sisters of Slaughter boxes at a discounted price.

That's a lot more than 1,000 pts. The Blood coven box alone is ~650pts if you take all the heroes.
Sadly, unless your warlord is a Bloodwrack medusa, only wych elves are battleline. And given how expensive the kit is, you kinda have to buy them with a cauldron.
For 1,000pts, I would say: blood coven box, a melusai box (built with the bows so they're battleline with a medusa warlord), 1 kinerai box and a warlock box. That's actually 1,020pts, but you have one of each kit, so it's pretty good for modeling, and two battleline.
So basically the same thing as Kanluwen, divided by two (he probably though you asked for a 2,000pts list).

The issue, quite simply, is that I cannot in good conscience suggest someone buy a box of Witch Aelves when the Blood Coven box exists. Even if someone is just wanting to do 1k--I'm going to always suggest they buy a few of those boxes to get Witch Aelves instead.
   
Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord





England

Thanks for the replies, folks.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Please don’t necro to ask if there’s been any news.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Captain Joystick wrote:
 Souleater wrote:
Quick question.

I am looking to give AoS a try with the Daughters. What would be folks recommendations to get a 'core' 1,000pt army going?

Cheers.


I'm starting with the bloodwrack medusa, two units of sisters, two units of stalkers, and two units of heartrenders.

Running the snakes in a temple nest battalion that's three drops at 980 points.

Downside, it's basically the opposite of what I'd call 'core' unless you intend to double up on temple nests.

My plan going forward is to build the Slaughter and Hag Queens, one of them on the cauldron depending on if it's allowed by the battalion requirements and fill in the core with witch aelves and sisters of slaughter until they can form a Draichi Ganeth slaughter troupe.


One of the sects or whatever they are allows you to run another two melusai units along with your Temple Nest. Plus you can run more than 5 melusai in each unit. Sadly it's still very "core", but you can have a toooon of snake women without doubling up on temple nest

Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Hi all,

I am starting an army and I want to have an army list that's built around Morathi and the Melusai/Khinari. What do you think would be the best list/rules for this? I am not opposed to the other units but I would like to have a lot of Melusi.

I kept getting wrecked with my Sylvaneth so if I play AoS again I want to be prepared.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






My regular opponent will be getting DoK. What do I need to know?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Glass cannon army, so games can be very swingy. If you go up against them and get crushed don't worry too much because it will just take learning how to counter-play. On the other hand, if you do well against them initially don't let your guard down. I would tentatively reccomend focusing on units over trying to kill cauldrons first because while the latter does put out a potent buff it can be difficult to kill unless you get it on it's own. Also remember that even small units will put out good offense, and that generally speaking medusa models = loads of mortal wounds, aelf models = loads of attacks.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Hag queens can make a unit immune to battleshock, if you see them running around on their own its worth putting the effort into killing them. Ones mounted on a cauldron can be much harder to kill, at which point it might be a safer bet to kill whatever unit it's tending to, but that depends on what kind of raw damage you can do to it.

The whole army has novel ways of giving mortal wounds, most of them are in close combat, and their units with shields actually don't get the benefit to their save against shooting attacks. Use this to cripple dangerous units or again, snipe the heroes and their heavy buff game.

If you get in close combat pay attention to your target priorities, a unit without the Hag Queen buff is a preferred target, a unit that can't mortal wound you on a miss/save is a preferred target, a hero that somehow isn't wrapped in bodies is often a preferred target.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

OP

Why are the Daughters of Khaine an Order faction?

The explanation GW gave that they build cities makes no sense since Death and Destruction do have cities. Malign Portents tells you Nagash main city is under siege.

If you look at the faction, they are the most un-order faction you could get:

* Morathi is a super villain who wants to ascend to Godhood. This has nothing to do with Order as she is trying to usurp the order of things.

* Her army consists of "mutants" and abominations who are tainted by Slannesh.

* She is not an ally of Sigmar. It does not make sense that the other forces of order would accept her as an ally. This isn't like Allarielle who is aloof and cold towards non Sylvaneth, but, when push comes to shove shes still a good person who wants to save everyone. If Allarielle saw a dying human on the road she would heal them. Morathi would slit their throats and feed their blood to the iron heart. You can't maintain that those two are part of the same faction.

* Her entire army are hyper violent and they live just to do battle and kill things. Morathi had to send her warriors out of the main city because they kept killing eachother.

To me, they are really a Destruction aligned faction because they aren't loyal to chaos, aren't dead and their sole purpose is to cause mayhem.


IMO the problem is that Death and Destruction are too heavily focused on Nagash and Gorkamorka. Every faction in them has to be either loyal or in the same group as those two Gods. This is not the same for Order and Chaos where you have a whole pantheon of different deities.

Plus, why do Sigmar and Allarielle tolerate this monster whose soldiers reave the countryside killing innocent people for blood and are clearly a bit dodgy? This is precisely the same reason they are at war with Nagash and Gorkamorka....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/29 12:31:28



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






You're still operating under the assumption that "Order" means "the good guys".

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 EnTyme wrote:
You're still operating under the assumption that "Order" means "the good guys".


Then what does Order mean exactly? Why shouldn't there be a faction for Sigmar/Alarielle separate from Malerion/Morathi and Tyrion/Teclis? They have nothing in common and are not allies. Lumping them in with team Sigmar is entirely arbitrary when they're clearly working against him as much as Gorkamorka or Nagash. Why is Sigmar going after Nagash but not Morathi?


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.

I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

pm713 wrote:
Order seems to be "not Chaos and you don't like Gorkamorka or Nagash." Team Sigmar is terrible lorewise to the point I had to make my own little world of anti everyone else in the Realm of Metal to avoid it.

I'd put Daughters under Death. They gain power through the blood and sacrifice of others right? They thrive on the death of others.


Deaths main deal isn't that they gain power through blood and sacrifice. Its that they are a faction composed of spirits and the undead in one form or another. Morathi is a lot of things, but shes not dead.

Whereas if the main trait of destruction is that they destroy and kill things. Well, this is the sum total of what the Daughters of Khaine do. If you ask, "is this a destructive faction?" the only real answer is yes. They don't fit the orcs and monsters aesthetic but then, its a bit like WoW having Blood Elves in the Horde. ATM Destruction and Death are really a single army splintered arbitrarily into several parts whereas Chaos and Order are genuine full factions allied together in a common cause. Would Morathi going "if I want to kill as many people as possible to become a God then wouldn't it make sense to manipulate a dullard like Gorkamorka and use his wars to fuel my ascension" be kinda in character. Instead of tip-toeing around her followers murdering villagers and various subterfuge that does not actually benefit her or Sigmar.

Yeah I think this is the key problem. These are "political factions" but Order clearly isn't a political faction. It works fine for Sylvaneth and Dwarves where you have a bit of friction but they're still on the same page. But when you have the like of the Morathi who basically despise Sigmar and have their own agendas completely separate from those of Sigmar its impossible to see why they're even part of the same faction.



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor






Characterizing Order as 'builds cities' is an extreme oversimplification of that Grand Alliance's goals and character. If you need to go into nuance about how the other factions build cities then you need to give Order the same consideration, and the distinction becomes clear.

Morathi may want to become Khaine, but she still wants that structure of civilization to exist and support her the way it supported Khaine. While you could argue that Morathi herself might fit in with Destruction because Destruction is parasitically reliant on the other factions to exist, or with Death because she's a crackling egomaniac, at the end of the day her goal for the wider world and her place in it more closely aligns with what Sigmar wants to make.

It doesn't help that Death and Destruction more or less belong to two entities that she has personal enmity with.

That said, it looks like GW could be laying the groundwork for a schism in the Order faction. The DoK allies options are limited to stormcast, the deepkin, and other factions descended from dark elves.

   
 
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