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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

The tournament scene really isn't that much different than it used to be, allowing for obvious changes in scale. If you looked at any major GW branded event from the late 90's or early 00's you'd see a mix of player acumen, a range of list optimization (previously know as cheese, or beard) and a range of paint calibers. At the time GW had a minimum three colour rule, and you'd see a lot of 'optimized' lists with minimal attention payed to hobby detail. GW did employ a range of soft score elements at these events, but the gents that won were almost always also the gents who went undefeated or close to it. There was slow playing, rules lawyering, shady movement tricks, etc etc etc. Just like today, you'd also see the level of list optimization rise as the size and prestige of the event went up. What's old is new again I suppose.

Now all you kids get off of my lawn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/25 18:35:14


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Fenris-77 wrote:
The tournament scene really isn't that much different than it used to be, allowing for obvious changes in scale. If you looked at any major GW branded event from the late 90's or early 00's you'd see a mix of player acumen, a range of list optimization (previously know as cheese, or beard) and a range of paint calibers. At the time GW had a minimum three colour rule, and you'd see a lot of 'optimized' lists with minimal attention payed to hobby detail. GW did employ a range of soft score elements at these events, but the gents that won were almost always also the gents who went undefeated or close to it. There was slow playing, rules lawyering, shady movement tricks, etc etc etc. Just like today, you'd also see the level of list optimization rise as the size and prestige of the event went up. What's old is new again I suppose.

Now all you kids get off of my lawn.


Quoted for truth

There is nothing new under the sun
   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




UK scene seems similar to its sigmar one with soup lists doing very well. Wouldn't mind seeing the lists though to see if there's a feel to it or just lasered in on hyper competitive
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





perrin23860 wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
The tournament scene really isn't that much different than it used to be, allowing for obvious changes in scale. If you looked at any major GW branded event from the late 90's or early 00's you'd see a mix of player acumen, a range of list optimization (previously know as cheese, or beard) and a range of paint calibers. At the time GW had a minimum three colour rule, and you'd see a lot of 'optimized' lists with minimal attention payed to hobby detail. GW did employ a range of soft score elements at these events, but the gents that won were almost always also the gents who went undefeated or close to it. There was slow playing, rules lawyering, shady movement tricks, etc etc etc. Just like today, you'd also see the level of list optimization rise as the size and prestige of the event went up. What's old is new again I suppose.

Now all you kids get off of my lawn.


Quoted for truth

There is nothing new under the sun


Actually there is. Average power level of armies has gone drastically up. Used to be after first 2 games I could find games of roughly same level armies. Now good if in 5 game tournament I get 1 outside 30k tournaments

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

tneva82 wrote:
perrin23860 wrote:
 Fenris-77 wrote:
The tournament scene really isn't that much different than it used to be, allowing for obvious changes in scale. If you looked at any major GW branded event from the late 90's or early 00's you'd see a mix of player acumen, a range of list optimization (previously know as cheese, or beard) and a range of paint calibers. At the time GW had a minimum three colour rule, and you'd see a lot of 'optimized' lists with minimal attention payed to hobby detail. GW did employ a range of soft score elements at these events, but the gents that won were almost always also the gents who went undefeated or close to it. There was slow playing, rules lawyering, shady movement tricks, etc etc etc. Just like today, you'd also see the level of list optimization rise as the size and prestige of the event went up. What's old is new again I suppose.

Now all you kids get off of my lawn.


Quoted for truth

There is nothing new under the sun


Actually there is. Average power level of armies has gone drastically up. Used to be after first 2 games I could find games of roughly same level armies. Now good if in 5 game tournament I get 1 outside 30k tournaments
That's not new either - it all depends on the event. A lot of FLGS tournies are still not optimized like Adepticon or LVO. At the time netlisting was very much a thing already, and you'd find the same cookie cutter cheese at any decent sized event. The bigger the event the higher the percentage of optimized lists, same as it ever was.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 Fenris-77 wrote:
The tournament scene really isn't that much different than it used to be, allowing for obvious changes in scale. If you looked at any major GW branded event from the late 90's or early 00's you'd see a mix of player acumen, a range of list optimization (previously know as cheese, or beard) and a range of paint calibers. At the time GW had a minimum three colour rule, and you'd see a lot of 'optimized' lists with minimal attention payed to hobby detail. GW did employ a range of soft score elements at these events, but the gents that won were almost always also the gents who went undefeated or close to it. There was slow playing, rules lawyering, shady movement tricks, etc etc etc. Just like today, you'd also see the level of list optimization rise as the size and prestige of the event went up. What's old is new again I suppose.

Now all you kids get off of my lawn.


Mostly true, but it was also only for bragging rights and a trophy in those days. Now you have cash prizes, 'pro' rankings, and 'pro tour' championships. The stakes are clearly higher now, and we all know the effects that higher stakes can have on human behavior.

Unpainted was also not a thing at GW tournaments, and it's definitely a thing now.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Rankings and especially large cash/merchandise prizes have been around for a decade. That's not new either. Cash straight up is newer, but the effect on people's behaviour is about the same as offering a first prize of, say, $500 worth of forgeworld product. Any prize other than bragging rights turns a bunch of guys into gigantic turdmuffins, and even just bragging rights does it sometimes too. That's why I'm ok with events at least trying to include a sportsmanship score of some kind.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The answer is clear - we need to nerf orks!
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Rankings and especially large cash/merchandise prizes have been around for a decade. That's not new either. Cash straight up is newer, but the effect on people's behaviour is about the same as offering a first prize of, say, $500 worth of forgeworld product. Any prize other than bragging rights turns a bunch of guys into gigantic turdmuffins, and even just bragging rights does it sometimes too. That's why I'm ok with events at least trying to include a sportsmanship score of some kind.


Well, I don't think you can handwave it and say prizes are prizes, and they're all on the same continuum. The amount matters.

For Best Painted at the very last Baltimore GT ever (2008), I got maybe $150 worth of merchandise. I'm guessing the overall was $200-300 in merch? Which is kind of a different thing than *thousands* in cash. And a few hundred bucks in loot is probably still standard fare at most medium-sized regional events that don't operate well into the black like the biggest ones.

To be clear, I'm not saying that large cash prizes cause everyone to behave like jackholes. But they sure don't help rein in anyone who is naturally tempted to dabble in jackholery. I think it's a factor. Not THE factor, but a factor.



My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

I went to a regional event in Ontario in the mid-2000's that was offering just shy of $500 in merch for overall. That's not a GT or Adepticon, which at the time was offering a lot more than that. We agree that the outcome is similar once the prize is big enough though, which is what I was getting at. Honestly, even when there were no prizes of any kind the asshat factor at big GW events was pretty high anyway from the top table types. It's just part of the hobby - some dudes just don't "do competitive" well at all, and you need to be ready and willing to manage those idiots as they appear.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
 
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