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 axisofentropy wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Can you provide your data that shows Orks are over performing in tournaments?

 axisofentropy wrote:
8th edition Top 3 finishes by Ork armies at GT and Major events in the 2017 ITC season:

1st Overall Wet Coast GT 2017

3rd Overall Caledonian Revolution 2017

2nd Overall Rampager GT 2017

2nd Overall EastCon 2017

1st Overall Attack-X 2017

2nd Overall Warzone Atlanta 2017

That's more than Tyranids. And it's more than Tau, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons combined.

Orks are not low tier.

(Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ )

This is outdated. 2017? We're in 2018 now bud.

However if you want to go for 2017 for some reason we can do it. Top 10 armies of 2017 based on who placed most often in top 3 at major ITC events and GTs (hold on to your cornflakes);

10 - Grey Knights?!?!
9 - Death Guard
8 - Sisters O' Battle
7 - Tyranids!!!
6 - Tau?!
5 - Orks!!
4 - Ultramarines
3 - Ynarri
2 - Astra Militarimperial Guard
1 - Chaos

Right now let's look at the most successful armies of 2018 so far based on the same criteria.

January
10 - Astra Militarum
9 - Ultramarines
8 - AdMech!?
7 - Craftworld Aelvesdari
6 - Tau!!! Again!
5 - Sisters
4 - Blood Angelis
3 - Chaos
2 - Tyranids
1 - Ynarri

February
10 - Imperium Soup
9 - Blood Angels
8 - Astra Militarum
7 - Craftworlds
6 - Ultramarines
5 - Tau (pre codex?!?!, 3 Commanders used anyway)
4 - Black Legion
3 - Death Guard
2 - Ynarri
1 - Tyranids

Ruhroh! I'm not seeing much in the way of Orks?! Perhaps there's a reason? Like, dare I say it, we're not as strong now that more codexes have been released and players have learnt how to use their freshly minted new codex armies better.

Does anyone know how these top lists are created?
As I have seen tournament lists with over 1k of ad mech liated as BA, over 1k of blood angles and custodes listed as ad mech and all sorts of wierd factions that realy should ve listed as imperial or chaos or aldari as they are unrepenting soup.

Ice_can wrote:
Does anyone know how these top lists are created?
As I have seen tournament lists with over 1k of ad mech liated as BA, over 1k of blood angles and custodes listed as ad mech and all sorts of wierd factions that realy should ve listed as imperial or chaos or aldari as they are unrepenting soup.

In the case of my lists, it depends on what the main faction "keyword" of the army was. If it was <Chaos> or <Imperium> then it'd say it was that soup. Where possible almost all the lists were "soup" of some sort but the faction keyword that had the most points invested in it was considered the primary. So for example those Sisters of Battle armies in my lists all had Imperial Guard or Space Marine units of some description within them.

 Fafnir wrote:
I get the feeling Scourge spam is going to be really hot, but outside of that, it's going to be a solid middle/high-middle codex.

Ravager spam

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
I get the feeling Scourge spam is going to be really hot, but outside of that, it's going to be a solid middle/high-middle codex.

Ravager spam

Why not both? Sourges and Ravagers will just eat things.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Can you provide your data that shows Orks are over performing in tournaments?

 axisofentropy wrote:
8th edition Top 3 finishes by Ork armies at GT and Major events in the 2017 ITC season:

1st Overall Wet Coast GT 2017

3rd Overall Caledonian Revolution 2017

2nd Overall Rampager GT 2017

2nd Overall EastCon 2017

1st Overall Attack-X 2017

2nd Overall Warzone Atlanta 2017

That's more than Tyranids. And it's more than Tau, Dark Angels, and Thousand Sons combined.

Orks are not low tier.

(Source: http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/ )

This is outdated. 2017? We're in 2018 now bud.

However if you want to go for 2017 for some reason we can do it. Top 10 armies of 2017 based on who placed most often in top 3 at major ITC events and GTs (hold on to your cornflakes);

10 - Grey Knights?!?!
9 - Death Guard
8 - Sisters O' Battle
7 - Tyranids!!!
6 - Tau?!
5 - Orks!!
4 - Ultramarines
3 - Ynarri
2 - Astra Militarimperial Guard
1 - Chaos

Right now let's look at the most successful armies of 2018 so far based on the same criteria.

January
10 - Astra Militarum
9 - Ultramarines
8 - AdMech!?
7 - Craftworld Aelvesdari
6 - Tau!!! Again!
5 - Sisters
4 - Blood Angelis
3 - Chaos
2 - Tyranids
1 - Ynarri

February
10 - Imperium Soup
9 - Blood Angels
8 - Astra Militarum
7 - Craftworlds
6 - Ultramarines
5 - Tau (pre codex?!?!, 3 Commanders used anyway)
4 - Black Legion
3 - Death Guard
2 - Ynarri
1 - Tyranids

Ruhroh! I'm not seeing much in the way of Orks?! Perhaps there's a reason? Like, dare I say it, we're not as strong now that more codexes have been released and players have learnt how to use their freshly minted new codex armies better.

this is a good post if you drop the childish language.

Nobody argued that Orks were on top, just that they're not on bottom. That's still true.

You've made a good argument that some of the other factions in the OP's list should be shuffled around!

Tyranids did a hard sweep of adepticon due to the missions. Not really because they’re that strong

 luke1705 wrote:
Tyranids did a hard sweep of adepticon due to the missions. Not really because they’re that strong

The opposite could be said about AM and ITC.

So do mechanicus go to mid tier?

So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

 djones520 wrote:
So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

So you got... what? One game in against a new army that you're unfamiliar with and now they're god?

 Fafnir wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

So you got... what? One game in against a new army that you're unfamiliar with and now they're god?

No, I've used my 20 years of experience playing this game to exam their rules, discussed the topic with friends who are very experienced/good at the game as well, who agree on the strengths of the new book, and gotten play experience against the army, and saw how great it was.

But thanks for being an ass.

I'm not gonna pretend that we know where Dark Eldar will fall just yet but at a first glance the codex seems to be top of the top tier. The only army that can cancel a stratagem. The only army that can give another unit the ability to ignore the character restrictions on shooting. Some of their units seem broken strong regardless of both of the above - Wyches are bonkers for their price and Kabalites for 6ppm seem undercosted.

I have no doubt they'll rise to top tier over time as players get used to the army.

 axisofentropy wrote:
this is a good post if you drop the childish language.

Nobody argued that Orks were on top, just that they're not on bottom. That's still true.

You've made a good argument that some of the other factions in the OP's list should be shuffled around!

What childish language? A bit of levity to a serious discussion?

Orks are bottom tier if we're going on recent results. If we're going on last year's results before the codexes were released then I guess not. It all depends on whether we want to use the most recent data or old, 2017 data I guess.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

What childish language? A bit of levity to a serious discussion?

It really does come across as condescension. Not that condescension is particularly uncommon here.

 djones520 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

So you got... what? One game in against a new army that you're unfamiliar with and now they're god?

No, I've used my 20 years of experience playing this game to exam their rules, discussed the topic with friends who are very experienced/good at the game as well, who agree on the strengths of the new book, and gotten play experience against the army, and saw how great it was.

But thanks for being an ass.

And I've got 10 years behind me and have done much the same, and I'm sitting at the revelation that short of Ravagers, Scourges, and the fliers, everything looks potent yet fairly reasonable at mid-high in the face of the relevant meta.

 Fafnir wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

So you got... what? One game in against a new army that you're unfamiliar with and now they're god?

No, I've used my 20 years of experience playing this game to exam their rules, discussed the topic with friends who are very experienced/good at the game as well, who agree on the strengths of the new book, and gotten play experience against the army, and saw how great it was.

But thanks for being an ass.

And I've got 10 years behind me and have done much the same, and I'm sitting at the revelation that short of Ravagers, Scourges, and the fliers, everything looks potent yet fairly reasonable at mid-high in the face of the relevant meta.

You only really need 1 detachment worth of units for Drukhari to be a mainstay on the top tables. The rest of the list can just be Ynnari/Craftworlds as per usual. It might be ideal if you can take a powerful Battalion given that Agents of Vect is 3CP, but it's also probably not necessary since those lists can get CP elsewhere if they need to do so. But this gets into the schizophrenic nature of this thread: are we talking about codexes, or are we talking about how people actually build their armies in the real world?

 djones520 wrote:
So having played against the new Dark Eldar codex now... they deserve to be at the top tier, no question, arguably at the top of it.

Yeah when you face someone for the first time and have no clue about how to counter that's the impression you get. I got the same impression the first time I faced the guilliman list, which seemed impossible to defeat.

So Dukhari are at least mid tier for now

Do you guys think the ‘nids are still gonna be top of the top tier for ITC games if the faq limits flyrants to one pr. detachment?

 killerpenguin wrote:
Do you guys think the ‘nids are still gonna be top of the top tier for ITC games if the faq limits flyrants to one pr. detachment?

yeah it was Adepticon's missions and terrain that helped them. In ITC they're less important and balanced tyranids are already better than tyrant spam.