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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

It also means that abilities outright designed to be used only on turn 1 (like the necron ca'tan stuff and scout stuff) would be arguably useless. Gw needs to just put out a confirmation already saying it's DS only and DS is when the unit doesn't start on the battlefield. Da Jump isn't even really alpha strike in my mind because you can only use it on 1 unit per turn which is pretty balanced.

This isn't aimed at you lolman because you actually have common sense but this is exactly what they have done with their fb answer. They say that the unit that has the power cast on it is already on the battlefield and has already satisfied the criteria of needing to enter in the deployment zone. I genuinely have no idea how people are still misunderstanding this outside of trolling.

Also, why would you redeploy your units exsactly where they are? The guy wasn't asking whether you could or not do the ability. He just asked if itis effected by the rules.

But seriously, i know scouts aren't effected but because of the poor wording Incan easily argue a case for them nit being effected! Hell, I could argue that IG troops moving up and using their ability to exist the transport (like a Valkyrie) now can't exist the vehicle turn 1.... xd Kind of a joke and I do not believe it will but you can see people already suggesting that. Even the Scions didn't get nerfed though because you can plop them in an already good valkyrie and fly them even closer to where they need to be.

Also you got a screenshot of that post? But the joke is, people are saying it doesn't matter because the fb team are not the dev team so no matter what they say we will still have arguements.

 lolman1c wrote:

Also, why would you redeploy your units exsactly where they are? The guy wasn't asking whether you could or not do the ability. He just asked if itis effected by the rules.

But seriously, i know scouts aren't effected but because of the poor wording Incan easily argue a case for them nit being effected! Hell, I could argue that IG troops moving up and using their ability to exist the transport (like a Valkyrie) now can't exist the vehicle turn 1.... xd Kind of a joke and I do not believe it will but you can see people already suggesting that. Even the Scions didn't get nerfed though because you can plop them in an already good valkyrie and fly them even closer to where they need to be.

Also you got a screenshot of that post? But the joke is, people are saying it doesn't matter because the fb team are not the dev team so no matter what they say we will still have arguements.

Lol dude I know man. It makes no sense.

Unfortunately I did not take a screenshot as I didn't realise I would be taken to the high court of 40k to prove everything I say. Also as you said, apparently screenshots of GW employees saying something don't count for diddley anyways on here lol.

 lolman1c wrote:

Also, why would you redeploy your units exsactly where they are? The guy wasn't asking whether you could or not do the ability. He just asked if itis effected by the rules.

But seriously, i know scouts aren't effected but because of the poor wording Incan easily argue a case for them nit being effected! Hell, I could argue that IG troops moving up and using their ability to exist the transport (like a Valkyrie) now can't exist the vehicle turn 1.... xd Kind of a joke and I do not believe it will but you can see people already suggesting that. Even the Scions didn't get nerfed though because you can plop them in an already good valkyrie and fly them even closer to where they need to be.

Also you got a screenshot of that post? But the joke is, people are saying it doesn't matter because the fb team are not the dev team so no matter what they say we will still have arguements.

You seriously can't come up with any use for T1 Da Jump even within your own deployment zone? I can think up 2 right away. Probably could come up with more if I spent some time on it but these two took me about 3 seconds to come up. Sure not huge game breaking moments but still better than nothing.

But the issue is the FB team's answers are by their own words no better than house rules. Why you think players should treat them as official WHEN THEY TELL YOU NOT TO TREAT THEM AS OFFICIAL!

You are being told to not treat them as official and you treat them as official?

Until GW provides official word I have nothing official to show for opponent that yes I can use Da Jump to go out of my DZ on turn 1. Only official word for the matter so far is the beta rules which is 100% unclear on the matter. Then there's just unofficial house rule.

If you are happy with GW providing such a unclear badly written ruleset that you need to spend time with each new opponent to sort out house rules fair enough. I would expect company that makes millions to be able to hire at least one guy with some basic english skills to go over rule texts to ensure they are well written.

It's always going to be a good idea to talk it over with your opponent beforehand - you might agree, in which case, no problem, play it how you like.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to allow Da Jump / GoI / etc on the first turn, but I don't think the FAQ currently supports it. And the rando support dude on Facebook managed to answer the question in a way that didn't help at all. It was almost like he was answering a different question (which, y'know, kind of par for the GW course).

In a world where there are rules just being straight-up added to the game in the answers to FAQs, rather than as errata, who even knows what's real any more? Here's hoping it gets clarified, and hopefully those abilities are allowed to be useful in Turn 1. Even more hopefully, maybe they'll do that in a way that doesn't directly contradict or conflict with other rules or answers!

 kadeton wrote:
It's always going to be a good idea to talk it over with your opponent beforehand - you might agree, in which case, no problem, play it how you like.

But that should not be required to have game that even works...Pre-game talk can be used to house rule things that while rules might be clear players feel that's not fun. Like 8th ed LOS rules. House ruling windows blocking LOS isn't that unusual house rule. That's stuff pre-game talk can be used.

But to be required to talk so that it is even technically POSSIBLE to play? No way. Game has too much stuff where rules simply don't cover one way or another so you are REQUIRED to house rule or rules don't work at all. That's not cool. Especially for big company making tons of profit and claiming to be "best in the world".

Problem for me isn't and never was can or can't they. I can live either way. End result of games are going to be same anyway. But rules that don't work without house ruling sucks. Playing 2k games in 2h in 8th ed(one of the slowest editions ever) with orks is already hard enough without having to talk through basic rules before game.

Of course it shouldn't, but... it is, so what ya gonna do?

Bombard GW like hell hoping they finally decide to wake up and give official fixings.

Though seeing how there's still known bugs from the day 1 of 8th ed not fixed despite them knowing about it shows pretty well they don't care too much about fixing wordings.

If you are happy with GW providing such a unclear badly written ruleset that you need to spend time with each new opponent to sort out house rules fair enough. I would expect company that makes millions to be able to hire at least one guy with some basic english skills to go over rule texts to ensure they are well written.

I never said I was happy. In fact you can find many posts of me saying GW needs to hire a team of proof readers and a think tank.

But you can also not deny that some people manipulate rules for their own gain and blame gw. I have experienced this first hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Bombard GW like hell hoping they finally decide to wake up and give official fixings.

Though seeing how there's still known bugs from the day 1 of 8th ed not fixed despite them knowing about it shows pretty well they don't care too much about fixing wordings.

Also we have done that for years. I'm only still here because the community is awesome, the rare pure casual friendly game I get is fun and I love painting, building and putting my models in my shelf.

https://imgur.com/a/pQlqcMr


That clears that up! Jump away Boyz waaagggggghhhhhh

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

https://imgur.com/a/pQlqcMr


That clears that up! Jump away Boyz waaagggggghhhhhh

Nah, some people are outright crazy mega "That guy" and saying because an official GW dev didn't put this in a FAQ on the community site it's not real and theynwill keep their head in the sand. Hope the Ork player they play against just packs up his stuff and moves into another person.

That "someone" is going straight back to my ignore list after I took him off for actually posting some interesting ideas about orks. Sadly he went straight back to just being toxic.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

https://imgur.com/a/pQlqcMr


That clears that up! Jump away Boyz waaagggggghhhhhh

Nah, some people are outright crazy mega "That guy" and saying because an official GW dev didn't put this in a FAQ on the community site it's not real and theynwill keep their head in the sand. Hope the Ork player they play against just packs up his stuff and moves into another person.

I just had a long conversation with a Chaos player in my area whose army relies HEAVILY on turn 1 assault. We are going to both do our best to follow the beta rules and play as competitively as we can with the tools we have. Then we intend to send all that feedback to GW and see if they do anything with it, but as mentioned, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see his army which uses that Khorne in your face tactic is going to suffer pretty badly having to walk up the board or arrive turn 2. Heres hoping though right?

Well the biggest complaint I can see from day 1 is that GW now has to re price every single DS unit in 40k. For 200+ points terminators were already expensive but now you're paying 200+ points for a unit that basically misses the first and most essential turn in 40k.

Basically, even with the popcorn army, everything needs a price slash to represent their nerf. The Korn on the cobs especially need one as their survival rates against shooty armies will be terrible now.

I remember losing over 800pts of my marines to a competitive 1k shooty list. Can you imagine how DS armies and Deathwing is going to play? In a 1k point game 500pts of troops have to be on the feild and thus if you miss the first turn you could lose all 500pts and insta lose turn 1. Before this could have happened but now you have two full rounds of shooting at your units before anything else comes in. And once all the ground troops are gone youn have auto lost. You could put them in your deployment zone turn 1 but they're terminators! They're not meamt to be lange troops... and what if you equipped them with lighting claws? They now have to 5" their way up the board.

 lolman1c wrote:
Well the biggest complaint I can see from day 1 is that GW now has to re price every single DS unit in 40k. For 200+ points terminators were already expensive but now you're paying 200+ points for a unit that basically misses the first and most essential turn in 40k.

Basically, even with the popcorn army, everything needs a price slash to represent their nerf. The Korn on the cobs especially need one as their survival rates against shooty armies will be terrible now.

I remember losing over 800pts of my marines to a competitive 1k shooty list. Can you imagine how DS armies and Deathwing is going to play? In a 1k point game 500pts of troops have to be on the feild and thus if you miss the first turn you could lose all 500pts and insta lose turn 1. Before this could have happened but now you have two full rounds of shooting at your units before anything else comes in. And once all the ground troops are gone youn have auto lost. You could put them in your deployment zone turn 1 but they're terminators! They're not meamt to be lange troops... and what if you equipped them with lighting claws? They now have to 5" their way up the board.

On the plus side they might drastically reduce the price of my Kommandos now, since in effect they sucked in every way imaginable except as being a turn 1 alpha strike that let me pile in reinforcements without getting shot off the table. 9pts now for a model that can only come in turn 2 or 3 and be useful, Gets +1 to cover save, but has a 6+ save still, so in effect he gets the 4+ every ork was getting last edition, except this 4+ can be ignored with -AP weapons, and since they want to get into CC as quickly as possible you won't be deep striking them into Cover because that reduces your charge range to 11 instead of 9. They don't benefit from +1 attacks for having more models and they are equipped exactly the same as a Boy except that they can take 2 specialist weapons including a Free Burna which is a SUPER INCREDIBLY MINOR buff over a Choppa (Do the math, I am not kidding, the difference is negligible). With all of that, I can't imagine why they wouldn't reduce the cost down to 7ppm, which would be wonderful for me because I love my Blood Axe Kommandoz!

Honestly, they should be 6pts or 7pts. Right now Ork Boyz are hands down better and with the new rules actually more likely to be already at the front lines. XD da jump 60 boyz in by the time Kommandos are ready... the weirdboys price is probably better than the extra price of 60 kommandos and witht the amount of +1 you get to a weird boy you can basically make it where you never fail.

this is what gives me a small amount of hope for Orks. At the start of 8th edition GW had no idea what was going on. Many index stuff was just out of the ordinary broken in both ways. So hopefully, GW basically has a full grasp of how 8th edition works and so will price everything correctly for Orks while also adding fun risk vs reward stuff... maybe sit them down and make them read the Skaven AoS codex. XD

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Well the biggest complaint I can see from day 1 is that GW now has to re price every single DS unit in 40k. For 200+ points terminators were already expensive but now you're paying 200+ points for a unit that basically misses the first and most essential turn in 40k.

Basically, even with the popcorn army, everything needs a price slash to represent their nerf. The Korn on the cobs especially need one as their survival rates against shooty armies will be terrible now.

I remember losing over 800pts of my marines to a competitive 1k shooty list. Can you imagine how DS armies and Deathwing is going to play? In a 1k point game 500pts of troops have to be on the feild and thus if you miss the first turn you could lose all 500pts and insta lose turn 1. Before this could have happened but now you have two full rounds of shooting at your units before anything else comes in. And once all the ground troops are gone youn have auto lost. You could put them in your deployment zone turn 1 but they're terminators! They're not meamt to be lange troops... and what if you equipped them with lighting claws? They now have to 5" their way up the board.

On the plus side they might drastically reduce the price of my Kommandos now, since in effect they sucked in every way imaginable except as being a turn 1 alpha strike that let me pile in reinforcements without getting shot off the table. 9pts now for a model that can only come in turn 2 or 3 and be useful, Gets +1 to cover save, but has a 6+ save still, so in effect he gets the 4+ every ork was getting last edition, except this 4+ can be ignored with -AP weapons, and since they want to get into CC as quickly as possible you won't be deep striking them into Cover because that reduces your charge range to 11 instead of 9. They don't benefit from +1 attacks for having more models and they are equipped exactly the same as a Boy except that they can take 2 specialist weapons including a Free Burna which is a SUPER INCREDIBLY MINOR buff over a Choppa (Do the math, I am not kidding, the difference is negligible). With all of that, I can't imagine why they wouldn't reduce the cost down to 7ppm, which would be wonderful for me because I love my Blood Axe Kommandoz!

I agree, kommandos should be 7ppm and with a better cover save bonus. Maybe even ì a -1 to hit for the turn they arrive and of course the subsquent opponent's turn. Blood axes kommandos should get some faction bonus that penalizes the enemy Ld.

We should get purple Orks. 0pts per model, have 0 attacks, can't shoot, can't charge, can't claim objectives and are basically not part of the game in any way. Almost like they're not there at all.

 warhead01 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
Has anyone noticed that Boss Nobs now cost six points?

they always have in 8th

I think some people were taking them for free. Like they were paying for 29 boyz and 1 free nob.

Andy and Nazrak, Orkz aren't the fun wacky army anymore. We have literally lost all of our fun rule and are left with bad rules. I mean they can be fun if your a masochist, who wouldn't want to waste an entire shooting phase against a target you can't really hurt because you had to roll for strength after targeting a vehicle. Or, that good old wacky SAG, which used to kill its user more often then its target, thats fun right? No, that is just stupid. The wacky rules were the ones like the old Ramshackle where the vehicle had its own destruction chart and would sometimes take out an entire squad of Space Marines OR kill your own unit next to the trukk as well as the unit inside. That was fun, not the current crap GW is pushing out. I mean hell, even our favorite weirdboy who could turn people into squigs got taken away from us :(

I'm really back and forth on this. MY random Bubble chukka easily out preformed 5 KMK's in a single game. You do have a point but I just don't know that "redundant" options actually pay off, my dice are like..Nope.
I've found better results with a larger mix of units than playing to any one extreme, which I have done. Once dice are involved you can have as much mathhammer as you want it never seems to matter for me.
So for one am willing to put points back into units that "shouldn't work". Prior to this edition wacky rules just irked my nerves. That old ramshackle rule did not make me happy and was a reason to leave the trukks at home. I think it was fun in one game of 6th edition, I had skipped all but the last few months of 6th edition. It's all subjective really. (A little unfortunate.)

It's as fun as you make it. I take bikes and and gorkanauts and all these useless units and have fun. I couldn't, as a long time evil Sunz fan, not take bikes in an army, and buggies. The rules aren't as fun as they used to be but in first edition most games couldn't go last turn two because the weekend was over, it'd taken so long. What's bad is all the very unorky whining. I don't get why youneould even want yo play them if doing well is so important.

As for your mate beating you in two turns, play more narrative games. Mix up missions and forces. Take double the points of him see what you can do. Make the game fun. Leave match play to the green tide/waac players.

No matter how much you tip the scales in your favor, unless your opponent goes out of his way to build a bad army on purpose, a biker army will not be able to last past turn 3.
Someone who puts down the current starter set will table you with next to no effort. That's how bad GW made some of our units.

It's not the player's job to fix this, it's GWs job. Considering how much better they have gotten at this in just the last year, I'm confident that at least casual and semi-competitive players will be having fun with their orks again.

As much as I agree an Ork player should just have fun... we're not Orks... it's a bad move for a company to do a terrible job and then the consumer (who has paid them £100s) goes "it's unlike my faction to complain or want anything else". You see, what you call "Un-orky" I call Blood Axey. The Blood Axe orks would sit there and go "yeah this is not working, something is wrong".

Not sure why kommandos dont have infiltrate instead of DS from the start. Keep em 9ppm and give them infitrate. Stormboys can have DS.

ORKS CAN'T AIM! Especially Blood Axe Kommandos who spend their entire lives training to aim.

Andykp wrote:
It's as fun as you make it. I take bikes and and gorkanauts and all these useless units and have fun. I couldn't, as a long time evil Sunz fan, not take bikes in an army, and buggies. The rules aren't as fun as they used to be but in first edition most games couldn't go last turn two because the weekend was over, it'd taken so long. What's bad is all the very unorky whining. I don't get why youneould even want yo play them if doing well is so important.

As for your mate beating you in two turns, play more narrative games. Mix up missions and forces. Take double the points of him see what you can do. Make the game fun. Leave match play to the green tide/waac players.

Ah so because GW can't be arsed to do their job and make armies balanced we should just suck it up rather than let them know what they are doing is unacceptable?

Don't lie blame on players for wanting fun balanced game. Blame lies on GW flat and square. They are the ones who are incompetent and arent' doing their job. If I did my job like they do I would have been kicked out long time ago.

you have to admit... it has been 40+ years... In the time it has taken GW to make a kinda okay game (8th edition) the human race and developed computers to be easily mass produced, the internet, developed cell phones, sent hundreds of satellites into space and actually sent real robot to Mars. We're actually closer to the Martian cult of technology in real life than the 40k dev team is to making a balanced game!

As I keep saying I love GW because they do do a lot of fun and good things right but also 40k dev team do a lot of weird thing. They're models, however, are awesome to paint and display it's it's the main thing I'm here for... I would just maybe like to use the models or have incentive to use the models.

Can someone confirm does zhardsnark get advance and charge based on his keywords?

tneva82 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
It's as fun as you make it. I take bikes and and gorkanauts and all these useless units and have fun. I couldn't, as a long time evil Sunz fan, not take bikes in an army, and buggies. The rules aren't as fun as they used to be but in first edition most games couldn't go last turn two because the weekend was over, it'd taken so long. What's bad is all the very unorky whining. I don't get why youneould even want yo play them if doing well is so important.

As for your mate beating you in two turns, play more narrative games. Mix up missions and forces. Take double the points of him see what you can do. Make the game fun. Leave match play to the green tide/waac players.

Ah so because GW can't be arsed to do their job and make armies balanced we should just suck it up rather than let them know what they are doing is unacceptable?

Don't lie blame on players for wanting fun balanced game. Blame lies on GW flat and square. They are the ones who are incompetent and arent' doing their job. If I did my job like they do I would have been kicked out long time ago.

Oh. My. God. The. Codex. Isn't. Out. Yet.

So? There's no reason except GW's incapability orks aren't already balanced NOW.

There's _zero_ reason index armies should be weaker than codex. Less options yes but if GW was willing to do it's job both would have equal chance to win.

Don't excuse GW like a white knight. They screwed up. I'm paying money for their products. Is it too much to ask at least half professional attitude from them for that? Are you happy paying for flawed items?

I hope your work ethics are better than GW's. I know I would have been fired long time ago if I was as inept in my work as GW developers are.

There's plenty to critique GW's CURRENT line. I'm not even commenting on future items because there's no need. GW's current work are so crappy quality you could poke holes in them for century and not run out of flaws to point out.

He has a point. If my mate built a crappy wall and said "Well when we get some new material in we'll just build a better one next to it" theynwould fire him on the spot! And I bet building high rise buildings in Asia is more difficult than balancing 40k. XD

Now you're being silly. You're blaming GW for not balancing the index against codices they haven't started writing at that point.

Adding stratagems, relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics and adjusting points alone makes a codex much more powerful than an index. They would have to make everything in a codex worse than their index incarnation in order to keep the power level the same. What a ridiculous suggestion.

You're just being negative for the sake of being negative again.

All of this will be forgiven once our codex is released assuming we get a few new models.

Let's be honest, we want our cake and eat it. I would like to take a fluffy army that can compete. Currently I struggle with Evil Sunz, like Andy above, but it's not impossible. The sad thing is the less "Evil Sunz" I make my army the more powerful it becomes.

I've no doubt we'll get some good treatment once the codex is released.