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For me, it was a multitude of things. I wasn't happy when they killed their boards. I was really unhappy after Third Ed dropped and they went to balance using theme forces (I totally understand the thought behind it and it makes sense). I just missed the list building and combos and finding unique and fun armies to play that were competitive. At the end of the day, I just realized it just wasn't fun for me anymore.

I still love the community and the folks in it. I just have no desire to play the game in its current state.

Always been here and going strong. http://lormahordes.freeforums.net/

marxlives wrote:
Always been here and going strong. http://lormahordes.freeforums.net/

you maybe want to poke the staff and have them approve my login credentials?

I really dislike the requirement to play theme lists. If you don't play a theme and your opponent does it puts you at a severe disadvantage. I also dislike not having the cards in the box with the models. I'm at a point where I both want to play but I can't bear to play, if that makes any sense.

Spent Sunday at Essen Spiel, the big german board games fair. I saw a fair few different German game shops had stands there and noticed that pretty much everywhere was selling PP stuff at a steep discount, clearing stock.

GW stuff by comparison had a big presence, even if I do not care for what was on offer.

 Da Boss wrote:
Spent Sunday at Essen Spiel, the big german board games fair. I saw a fair few different German game shops had stands there and noticed that pretty much everywhere was selling PP stuff at a steep discount, clearing stock.

GW stuff by comparison had a big presence, even if I do not care for what was on offer.

but isn't that a general show tendency, especially on the last day, as gamers are always up for grabbing a bargain or 12, plus saves packing and lugging stuff back to the shop

And whilst the recent rise of GW is impressive I suspect WMH/40K player overlap is minimal so the slid of the game is factors other than GW

It was noticeable that Privateer Press stuff was more discounted, advertised as having steeper discounts and generally just piled into 50% off bins. GW stuff had maybe 10% off on the last day, and other companies were similar. PP had steeper discounts. Matches my experience in my local shop - all PP has been 50% off for about a year and they are not restocking the stuff they sell. I did well out of it, finished off my minions, but it doesn't look good for the game over here.

yep one of my local(ish) stores dumped all their WMH stuff at 50% around Mk3 launch due to lack of local interest, picked up the odd thing but had a fairly chronic MTG and X-Wing habit at the time (im better now)

 Brotherjanus wrote:
I really dislike the requirement to play theme lists. If you don't play a theme and your opponent does it puts you at a severe disadvantage. I also dislike not having the cards in the box with the models. I'm at a point where I both want to play but I can't bear to play, if that makes any sense.

It is a problem that they've been having. PP has taken a bad veer towards trying to make theme lists a 'mandatory' thing, I think in some misguided attempt to give more diversity within each faction. While that is itself not a problem, the problem is that they're as bad as ever at balancing the theme lists such that some factions have hilariously strong and others have hilariously bad themes.

The problem is they've just gone the route of "take X amount of points, get X amount of free points" as the main draw to the best theme forces, with the effect that it has made certain themes unbalanced. Usually because they give too many or too few free points, or give a free effect that is strong enough to where you don't even have to take anything that is really thematic to get a benefit(like how the Winterguard theme force used to give Advance Move to ALL jacks, no Winterguard necessary)

I love the idea of theme forces, but I think PP just can't do them properly. They use them as a bad excuse for why they won't fix certain models, resulting in some models which would never be taken outside the theme force(and usually won't even be taken in the theme either because something else is still probably better).

I would like for PP to completely get rid of theme forces for a while and focus on balancing the game without theme forces. Make everything as close to playable as possible, buff the hurting models and nerf the egregiously over powered stuff. And then and ONLY then should they come out with themes, which should be limited to small benefits for following restricted model types.

Alternately, they could make a Generic theme force which every faction could use so that if your faction's theme forces sucked, or didn't want to follow any of the restrictions, you could still get some small bonuses. I'd go with something like this,

Generic Army Force:

Composition Rules: An army made with this list can include any friendly faction models, as well as any Mercenary or Minion models that work for your faction.

Benefit 1: Choose one of the following benefits.

-For every full 25 points of friendly faction Warjacks, Warbeasts, Structures, or Battle Engines in this army, you may add one friendly faction Solo or Command Attachment to the army free of cost. Free models do not count towards the point value when calculating this bonus.

-For every full 20 points of friendly faction warrior models/units in this army, you can add one small or medium based Solo or Command Attachment to the army free of cost. Free models do not count towards the point value when calculating this bonus.

Benefit 2: Once per game, when casting a spell, each friendly faction Warcaster/warlock in your army may reduce the COST of a spell by 1.

Benefit 3: Choose one of the following benefits.

-Before deployment, choose one friendly faction Warjack or Warbeast in your army. The chosen model may gain 1 of the following: +1 Mat or +1 Rat

-Before deployment, choose one friendly faction warrior model/unit in your army. The chosen model/unit may gain 1 of the following: +1 Mat or +1 Rat

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Spent Sunday at Essen Spiel, the big german board games fair. I saw a fair few different German game shops had stands there and noticed that pretty much everywhere was selling PP stuff at a steep discount, clearing stock.

GW stuff by comparison had a big presence, even if I do not care for what was on offer.

but isn't that a general show tendency, especially on the last day, as gamers are always up for grabbing a bargain or 12, plus saves packing and lugging stuff back to the shop

And whilst the recent rise of GW is impressive I suspect WMH/40K player overlap is minimal so the slid of the game is factors other than GW

Eh. Stateside (which I'd argue is PPs primary market), PP essentially built themselves on the back of disaffected/disenchanted GW customers. My general experience is that PP burnt some of that goodwill off with each edition. (The really Hardcore locals I played with during 1st edition threw in the towel for 2nd, mostly on the back of playtest experiences, amusingly enough). 3rd had a similar effect locally on 2nd edition players, including myself this time. Problem is, 2nd was able to pick up newly born anti-GW players when it happened to replace those it lost from the transition from 1st, while 3rd didn't have that pool, GW was in a good place again (at least as far as sales)

Sampling the 5 local stores in a ~40 mile radius, GW climbed back up (from a point where several stores were prepared to ditch GW entirely after the launch AoS), and PP has effectively withered. The store that used to have a heavy crowd on regular nights and weekends has effectively replaced those time slots with Magic (evening) and Pokemon and kids D&D slots (weekend), but still has warhammer on their calendars. A couple stores have closed their doors, but others have opened up, and don't bother to stock PP, but have a wall of GW.

PP had bigger issues with retailers in that they have massive sku bloat. It would be insane for any store to try and carry the entire product line (or even most of it).

This is also the issue they are having with balance. As they are reluctant to squat any model ever released they are forced to keep adding to the line of models (to keep revenue coming). It creates a massive inventory to try and keep up with and I couldn't even begin to imagine how hard it would be to balance all of that.

The good idea to balance armies through theme lists was a decent idea in theory. Sadly it's not worked out that well in practice. Then they doubled down on the stupid and decided to have the CID. Another good idea in theory, but when you are playtesting individual models in a CID environment you have to be able to balance it in theme so that's another crap-show.

I honestly have no idea how PP plans to dig themselves out of this hole.

SKU bloat really isn't an issue. GW has more SKU bloat than anybody else and that was never a problem. FLGS's just need to carry the basics for the most popular factions, the rest can be special ordered.

 Grey Templar wrote:
SKU bloat really isn't an issue. GW has more SKU bloat than anybody else and that was never a problem. FLGS's just need to carry the basics for the most popular factions, the rest can be special ordered.

Well, GW has far more factions, but also doubles and triples up more units in a box than PP does. Currently for WMH that only applies to one or two heavy 'jack/beast sets, one or two units, and the Colossals for each faction. Having 1 sku produce 3 units and provide bits for others allows for a huge expansion of product listing, which GW has used mercilessly.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
I really dislike the requirement to play theme lists. If you don't play a theme and your opponent does it puts you at a severe disadvantage. I also dislike not having the cards in the box with the models. I'm at a point where I both want to play but I can't bear to play, if that makes any sense.

Makes perfect sense, but i use the models now mostly for rpg purposes (love IKRPG) and CoI where i dont need much.

They definitely need to consolidate some boxes. A Winter Guard box with rifles and standard infantry, Wolves/Reeves of Oroboros, tons of things are mostly the same model with arm/head swaps as is.

Wolves and Reeves are indeed in the same box. 10 bodies, 20 heads, 20 pairs of arms. Same for Steelhead Hallberdiers/Riflemen, and some others.

some SKU merging might help but hopefully done better than the Reeves/Wolves shambles, which may be the worst PP models I've ever purchased

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
some SKU merging might help but hopefully done better than the Reeves/Wolves shambles, which may be the worst PP models I've ever purchased

All the restic stuff is bad. Unfortunately they ordered a LOT of it before MK2 even started back when it was the promised replacement for metal. I'm sure they're not really happy about it, but nobody wants to replace plastic molds on a whim. Unfortunately, they replaced a lot of their stuff while they scrambled to find an alternative. Eventually it all needs resin resculpts, but I have no clue how long that will take.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
some SKU merging might help but hopefully done better than the Reeves/Wolves shambles, which may be the worst PP models I've ever purchased

All the restic stuff is bad. Unfortunately they ordered a LOT of it before MK2 even started back when it was the promised replacement for metal. I'm sure they're not really happy about it, but nobody wants to replace plastic molds on a whim. Unfortunately, they replaced a lot of their stuff while they scrambled to find an alternative. Eventually it all needs resin resculpts, but I have no clue how long that will take.

It's certain a lesson learned, part of me tinfoils the theory there's a part of the player base that regards mini as mere playing pieces and the sub board game quality is fine as the only paint they'll see is base arcs

My meta used to be 20 strong, and dominated the local shops in syracuse. We had a couple of press gangers move away, then they killed the PG's and dropped 3rd all while killing the forums. This meant people swapping to Star wars and infinity and returning to GW. Now one of the local shops doesn't carry it at all anymore, and the other shop I haven't been in but I'm pretty sure doesn't either because there was plenty of overlap. We used to send half a dozen people to Gen-con to play and now no one really even plays at home. Its sad.

It's all self inflicted by PP.
Killing the PG program and their forums signaled the Deathknell.
Then they rushed out 3rd edition and it only compounded the problem.
Now they are in a not so good position with only the most dedicated still purchasing and playing.

It's entirely their own fault, thinking they could pretty much nuke their community and support and still remain solvent. They've made some.pretty stupid moves as far as companies go and it's not at all surprising that communities are drying up all over the place.

With the gaming options available, it's no wonder they're having such a hard time. They seemed to think they were an unstoppable juggernaut and could do no wrong. Their string of bad decisions is now costing them their livelihoods. They were overconfident to the point of being completely blind as to what was happening in the gaming landscape, and made too many bad decisions.

I hope they can recover because I love their paint.

PP can recover they just need to realise it and invest in it and be brave enough to reverse choices that they made in the recent past. What's more shocking is that they made almost exactly the same mistakes GW made which sparked GW's steady downfall!

 Overread wrote:
PP can recover they just need to realise it and invest in it and be brave enough to reverse choices that they made in the recent past. What's more shocking is that they made almost exactly the same mistakes GW made which sparked GW's steady downfall!

I agree with this; Hate to see a company like them falling apart.

But don't follow PP too close but has the upper management changed?

This happen way to often that you have good people working there but the top guy driving force is focused downward.

There was War Machine Weekend this past weekend and it seemed to go ok;

again not been involved in a long while so don't know if the numbers are up or down..

It's core is doing ok the problem is that they've shed a lot of the fringe areas; and the shutdown of the PG system has dried up the game in many areas; which hasn't helped with recruitment. Basically if they don't change their tune they'll end up relying on an ever dwindling advanced core market without a proper influx of new players.

They seriously need to do what GW is doing right now - outreach programs, a new PG type system, school outreach, pushing out books and other media (their name is big enough that indie developers in computer games could pick it up) etc... Ergo they need to almost stop investing in models for a few months and invest heavily in marketing and rebuilding their community connections.

I think they panicked when the Magic the Gathering Judges went against Wizards of the Coast and PP reacted in a bad way. Wizards has survived that event and chances are the PG group wouldn't have risen up in nearly the same way (Like it or not Magic generates way more in profits and the competitive scene is full of advertising revenue and such - whilst wargames are darn lucky if they can get a handful of stalls at an event and a free £100 boxed set prize from a store)

 Genoside07 wrote:

 Overread wrote:
PP can recover they just need to realise it and invest in it and be brave enough to reverse choices that they made in the recent past. What's more shocking is that they made almost exactly the same mistakes GW made which sparked GW's steady downfall!

I agree with this; Hate to see a company like them falling apart.

But don't follow PP too close but has the upper management changed?

This happen way to often that you have good people working there but the top guy driving force is focused downward.

A couple people left (like the guy who basically ran the mark 2 playtest), but Matt Wilson and company are still at the top AFAIK.

Mind you, Matt and company are pretty much the stereotype of creative types that don't always grasp the business end of things.

Were the "deep discounts" that people are seeing on the Sku codes that have been discontinued in the stores? That is what they have been putting into their Mystery boxes. My LGS that has been around since the mid 80's discounted all the discontinued sku codes to clear the shelf of them. It was a necessary step as the number of sku codes in stores were too unwieldy for the stores to maintain. The is something that GW has been doing for years. My guess is that the further away we get from this, prices won't be as discounted and the stock in stores will be normalized.

Azeroth wrote:
Were the "deep discounts" that people are seeing on the Sku codes that have been discontinued in the stores? That is what they have been putting into their Mystery boxes. My LGS that has been around since the mid 80's discounted all the discontinued sku codes to clear the shelf of them. It was a necessary step as the number of sku codes in stores were too unwieldy for the stores to maintain. The is something that GW has been doing for years. My guess is that the further away we get from this, prices won't be as discounted and the stock in stores will be normalized.

For at least one of the LGS that I know of that put up deep discounts on Warmachine/Hordes, it was across the board; not just on older, discontinued SKUs. And they weren't able to move a lot of it, even at that price (50% off). Haven't checked in with them for a while to see what the current situation is.

Azeroth wrote:
Were the "deep discounts" that people are seeing on the Sku codes that have been discontinued in the stores? That is what they have been putting into their Mystery boxes. My LGS that has been around since the mid 80's discounted all the discontinued sku codes to clear the shelf of them. It was a necessary step as the number of sku codes in stores were too unwieldy for the stores to maintain. The is something that GW has been doing for years. My guess is that the further away we get from this, prices won't be as discounted and the stock in stores will be normalized.

I think it was more to shift stale stock to create shelf space, certainly my local didnt restock any WMH once stuff on hand sold or was banished to the cupboard of unsellable things

One FLGS in my area put it all up at 40% off - now it is gone, but I don't think it was sold. Probably off to e-bay. I will say though that I can't seem to find the models I want at really rock bottom prices. I don't want them for the game mind you, just because I like them.

My honest feeling is killing the Press Ganger program was their biggest problem..
They should have really gotten good legal advice, instead of looking at wizards of the coast and just dropping it like a hot potato.

I knew a few PG, most were great people and had nice forces, they did not stop gaming, just didn't have
an insensitive to keep playing it since the market place is full of other great things to steal their attention.

Don't feel a hard reset like AoS would help either.. GW is still trying to recover from that and will never
admit how really bad it was.