SemperMortis wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Which can be avoided via decent positioning and
LOS blocking cover, which will exist on all tables, regardless of tournament or not, so you can surely hide one or two mobs somewhere. ..
Where the feth on a normal table am I going to hide a mob of 30 Boyz, within 6" of a mob of another 30 Boyz? I don't think my Boyz have yet to benefit from cover, in any game I've played.
When i manage to hide a 50 man blob out of
LOS, then how the heck are you not managing 30 boys? Also aren't there rules like the first floor of ruins is blocking
los and you can't shoot through them?
One squad hides behind the walls of a building, the other Squad stands in the open. Problem of the moral solved, aslong as you take the proper orks away from the unit that stands in the open, and yes i realize that Orks should get into CQC as fast as possible and that hiding might be a hinderance for that but sometimes you need to make a tradeoff no?
And yes i realize that Orks need to be within 6" of another Squad, that complicates these things i agree on that and that is also why i don't count Orks as a problem.
Because again hordes are not the problem, the problem is Soup, Min Tax Troops cost effectivness on certain troop choices and the fact that some choices are only made because some Stratagems are broken and therefore armies need
CP and take such min tax troops.
I won't hit on this too much since you already admitted most of the problems with your thinking.
1: Boyz need to be in
CC in order to be worth a damn, unless they are camping an objective...which you would be better off using a min squad of Grotz and hiding them out of
LOS.
2: You can hide 1 mob out of
LOS and use their leadership for 1 turn...or you could daisy chain back to them but then you run the risk of not having enough bodies where the Rubber meets the road so to speak.
3: There is no trade off since you are now using 180pts as a morale battery, so almost 1/10th of your army is useless. And its actually more then that because of the daisy chains.
4: Ive played tournaments at numerous different events and venues and I have yet to come across a board with this mythical amount of terrain that blocks
LOS all over the place. This isn't a hit on you but to the masses in general who scream "Just use more
LOS terrain". I mean yeah, if we are playing a friendly game at the
FLGS then yeah we can pile all sorts of terrain on the board, but if its 8-12+ tables all going at the same time terrain becomes few and far between.
1: Which i said was a tradeoff and also the reason why i don't mind Ork hordes.
2: Also true leads to point one.
3: Never meant to say that you should stay behind cover with that squad for multiple turns, also the job could be given to Ballaboyz so they won't just waste air and cover space.
4: Flashback to the London event recently, the main problem is that in many cases for bigger tournaments often times organizers face scarcity for terrain. This hurts especially CQC focussed armies that have no reliable / effective/ fast way of closing the gap and or lack the punch in their first attack wave.
Again Ork hordes are not something that is especcially difficult to pick appart. Do i condone the fact that you can "leand" morale, no, not when the changes to the moral system were applied to get a specific attrition effect on especcially big Squads. Are Orks the main problem in regards to "hordes"? No they are not, in fact they seem quite underwhelming when their only unit that keeps them in the game is their basic boy mob in conjunction atleast 2-3 other such mobs, which allready cost the player in case of atleast 4 x 30 boyz more then enough pts.
The problem really lies with
IG for
CP farming and the Relic and Soup, Cultists for mintax
CP farming and costefficency, Kabalites for
CP farming and generally beeing to cost effective compared to other "elite" armies like marines.
That beeing said Marines themselves are in a bad spot, either beeing overpriced or their basic job can be fullfilled easily by other allied detachments, in case of
CSM can even be replaced with units in their own Codex.
And here is the Crux: In a better world we would be able to field Marines or
CSM and not be punished for that by the fact that we need them for
CP, instead they should fullfill a role. Why bother however fullfiling a jack of all trades role when
Tac Marines and
CSM lack either melee or shooting abilities because their loadouts are restricted and there is literally the cheaper option to take that can do the same thing a tad worse but atleast get's properly suported via stratagems.
As soon as a Army get's a Codex, they will try to maximize their
CP gains, simply because some of these are just way to good.
Now Marines or Bananas lack the cheap troop choice, respectively their troops just plain suck compared to
IG guardsmen costefficency wise. Add insult to injury and add in the fact that you can regain
CP with certain relics, so why bother bringing a proper non soup list or a
CSM list with nothing but Cultists as troops.
Oh and the Detachments themselves are good and all, but basically what it boils down to, how much
CP can i get for the cheapest ammount of pts spent on as costeffective troops as possible. This leads to the infamous soup especially on the Imperial side.
Then we had also the problem that the Detachments easily allowed us to spam certain units, or gain access to certain slots and whilest basically a good idea this also meant that we players would try and use onebig detachment like platoon or brigade to farm
CP with the cheapest possible avilable units and another one were the main power of the army is.
So no Hordes are not a problem, allowing
CP for stratagems to be used from differing detachments is.
