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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Several people are capable. Corax did it, Bile did it, the 21st founding did it and all are successful in their own ways with the resources and environments they had, which is something to take into account. It's always been possible to improve on them, but the degrees of success vary.

And that person is one of the highest ranking Tech Priests who has no friends in the AdMech for that reason. He's really too scary to be the Fabricator General, but we've been over this.

Also when the galaxy splits in half you kinda throw most of the rules out the window, or are you seriously suggesting all the Imperial Dogmas would still be strictly followed? That's not really how it works.


Corax did not, the emperor did and those memories are now fading very very quickly, also even with that info corax needed the help of a lot of other people and produced enhanced marines, not primaris, its a different process and used the massive amount of knowledge the emperor gave him.

21st CURSED founding, it was not a resounding success like Cawls appears to be at the moment.

"Worse still, some Chapters have developed genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival"

Yes I am not only outright suggesting that imperial dogma will be followed in such an occasion but out right telling you it is, were it not for Guiliman that is exactly what would be happening, there are even factions within the Inquisition to ensure that is exactly what happens, mono dominants IIRC, thats the whole point of the monolithic Imperium, no matter what happens they always try to stick to the status quo, its one if its biggest weaknesses and strengths.




1. The point being that Corax did find a way to improve upon them. I'm not saying they're Primaris. I'm saying both are improved upon the original template. Corax of course would've had more success if the environment had let him (which is not being in a more peaceful situation and the Alpha Legion screwing things up). So if you took the environment out of the equation, they might not have been Primaris but a still very much improved Marine.

There CAN be differing paths to improvement after all. Primaris are just one of them. Corax found his way and probably could've done well without the outside circumstances. We can assume the same with Bile as well if he had even a moment of peace to work out the kinks.

2. "Cursed Founding" still had various improvements to different degrees, and was merely called as such due to bad luck rather than the mutations creating bad Marines. Just because things didn't end well doesn't mean things couldn't have worked out. Obviously Marines that are on fire is scary to the Inquisition, but it's an improvement itself. Having the ability to stab your opponent like Wolverine with no drawback is an improvement itself.

So the Inquisition is the problem, not the Marines. So yeah.

3. Laws get broken all the time and new laws and rules replace them, simply because of new circumstances. Think of the Japanese camps that happened in WW2. Granted they already do similar things in the 40k setting, but the point remains that if something is broke it gets fixed. Consequences then determine if that's good or bad.



1: It wasnt Corax that found the answer, it was his team of apothecaries and experts that found the answer, while coraxs role was pivotal in giving the information, it wasnt him that found the answers and it produced enhanced marines based upon the information the emperor gave him, information that no longer exists in the setting (unless they retcon it), so it raises the very valid question of how Cawl got any of this information, did the emperor give it to him? certainly wasnt corax since he no longer has the info and all the rest was destroyed by him or deleted by his orders.

2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how?

3: Laws get broken in the imperium and you die, its that simple, circumstances are irrelevent, reasons are irrelevent, you broke the law, you are either excomunicated and hunted down, or straight up killed, real world analogies have zero bearing on how the imperium works, and if anything the Ad Mech is even more conservative than the norm, if something is broken, it stays broken because thats the emperors design and you dare not question it, its because of this we get insane planetary goverors getting away with murder, technology built with flaws because the tech has always had that flaw and thats the way the machine god wants it, zero technological innovation in the last 10k years because the tech they already have is perfect and any new tech found from an STC is perfect (its not, we know that).

1. It was still improved upon, AND by people who aren't at the level of Primarchs. Simple as that. You can't deny that part, nor can you deny it was the outside circumstances that led to any failure with them.

2. It was a success, just not one that leads to clean looking Marines. They were strictly successes in terms of performance though. Did any of the Cursed Founding suck all the sudden for performance because of the mucking about with their Geneseed?

3. Clearly things get tweaked. Otherwise the 21st founding wouldn't have even happened, right?



1: your still avoiding the point, how can it be ok for them to hand wave Cawl to have access to knowledge that does not exist in any form, the Enhanced marine project used the EMPERORS knowledge directly put into Coraxs mind, Cawl seemingly has pulled it out of his arse, so no, its not even remotely the same circumstances.

2: We will have to agree to disagree on this, from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for.

3: on a micro level, sure things may get tweaked, but not a macro level, a few laws here and there on a system or subsector level, but the imperium at large, nope, never, the core laws and ideals never change, they dont care how you worship the emperor for example, as long as you worship the emperor, those that dont are heretics and killed, enslaved, turned into servitors or sent to penal legions, change the status quo too much, like worshiping the emperor with proscribed rituals like blood sacrifice and your done.....

The Ad Mech is much worse than this.

1. Before Roboute went into stasis, he gave Cawl the Portum, which basically has the genetic info for Primarchs. So if we can muck about as much as we already can, Cawl can do something in the more peaceful situation he's in along with the resources he has. It isn't difficult to grasp what happened here. You're just in denial for whatever reason.

2. You didn't answer the question I tried to present. I want it answered. The question is, for all intents and purposes: did any of these Chapters have any performance issues with their genetic manipulation? There is nothing to "agree to disagree" on here.

3. Macro happened all the time in history. Difference here is the scale of change needed.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





weather it was tried again or not is irrelevant, the 21st founding is direct evidance that the highlords of Terra have the power to order geneseed tampered with, and that there are individuals in the admech whom where willing to try.

you claim that Cawl lacked any of that knowledge, except there is evidance that Cawl likewise had knowledge of Primarch genetics, albit incomplete. where he got that data from? who knows. rather then purely dismiss it, perhaps we should simply discuss what GW needs to tell us about the character

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

1. Before Roboute went into stasis, he gave Cawl the Portum, which basically has the genetic info for Primarchs. So if we can muck about as much as we already can, Cawl can do something in the more peaceful situation he's in along with the resources he has. It isn't difficult to grasp what happened here. You're just in denial for whatever reason.

2. You didn't answer the question I tried to present. I want it answered. The question is, for all intents and purposes: did any of these Chapters have any performance issues with their genetic manipulation? There is nothing to "agree to disagree" on here.

3. Macro happened all the time in history. Difference here is the scale of change needed.


1: so where did Guilliman get the destroyed info from then? did the alpha legion give it to him? there was only one that I am aware of in deliverence lost and that was stolen, any others were destroyed when the facility housing them was destroyed. So again, did guilliman pull it out of his arse? do you not see the massive plot hole here, this is handwavium at its best.

2: "2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how? "

"from the point of view of the imperium its not a success, hence never trying it again, mucking with gene seed and producing mutants is heresy of the highest order, something chapters have been excomunicated for."

Yes I did, Twice in fact, they failed to get the result they were trying to get, 10% failure, 99% failure, its still a failure in the eyes of the imperium, they tried to "fix" the marine chapters and it didnt work, they produced horrible mutants.

But to just hammer the nail in that in this case you are wrong.

"Unfortunately, the Adeptus Mechanicus' Genetors proved far less skilled in the genetic sciences than the Emperor of Mankind, and their efforts resulted in the development of seriously flawed gene-seed that was used to craft the organ implants for the new Chapters. The Founding itself ended when one of its projects, already corrupted by Chaos, sent a signal through the Warp and alerted Fabius Bile, a notorious Apothecary of the Emperor's Children Traitor Legion, who served Chaos Undivided by seeking out new recruits for the Chaos Space Marines. Bile had been engaged in his own quest to improve upon the Emperor's work since the Horus Heresy and he found the "improved" Space Marines of the 21st Founding to be creations after his own black heart.

Matters pertaining to the exact nature of the 21st Founding of Space Marine Chapters carried out on the cusp of the 36th Millennium, have long since become shrouded in myth. The various dark ends that have befallen many of this Founding's Chapters have entered it into the lore of the Inquisition and the Space Marines alike as the so-called "Cursed Founding," and with good reason, and many now consider those Chapters created under its auspices as tainted from their very birth.

Although some Chapters among those of this Founding were spared a devolution into something no longer human or sane, its mark is still upon them in the eyes of their fellow Space Marines, many of whom grew to shun these Chapters, regardless of their undoubted loyalty to the Imperium and noble defence of its people. Worse still, some of these Chapters have developed unexpected genetic idiosyncrasies, mutations that strain the tolerance of the Inquisition and threaten the Chapter's survival. As a result, the Chapters of this Founding have gradually dwindled in size as their inability to raise and induct new recruits means that their battle casualties cannot be replaced. The most seriously afflicted Chapters exhibited spontaneous and extreme physical corruption, turning them into a race no longer human or sane. Most of the Space Marine Chapters Founded during this time eventually turned Traitor and swore themselves to Chaos or met a gruesome end at the hands of other Space Marine Chapters and the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus."

There is no arguing with that, yes they had massive issues, they failed quite quite badly.

3: Stop trying to bring history into this, were talking about 40k, sorry to be so blunt but you are very wrong on this point too, they stick steadfastly to dogma in the sense of reason, because grim derp/dark.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





1: so where did Guilliman get the destroyed info from then? did the alpha legion give it to him? there was only one that I am aware of in deliverence lost and that was stolen, any others were destroyed when the facility housing them was destroyed. So again, did guilliman pull it out of his arse? do you not see the massive plot hole here, this is handwavium at its best.



So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?

We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?

2: "2: thats kinda the point isnt it, they failed, the cursed founding did not work as it produced mutants the people involved mucked with the marine design and the end result was mixed, thats a failure by any stretch of the imagination as the next chapters gene seed you muck with may end up the same, so its not worth the risk of trying again, so they never did, but not Cawl, he has a 100% success rate, how? "


this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?

We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?


I decry it as bad storytelling because it is, you say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet", and I say, why would the alpha legion give it to guiliman? they wouldnt.

No had he gotten the goo we would have been told, did he get it during the scouring, no, as again we would have been told, did he get it off "alpharius" when he killed him, no, such a device would never have been brought into a battle, so far you have raised some decent posts but these are just grasping at straws.



this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.


No the only thing you can take from the 21st founding is that ONCE during 10,000 years a secret project was green lighted and failed, never tried again and buried, the exception proves the rule, not the other way around.


So to summarise, thus far no one has been able to convince me that Cawl has not broken established tropes and rules of the setting, he has somehow had access to lost technology and allowed to innovate, thus far with zero ramifications, he is somehow better than anyone else in the setting, with skills and abilities that no one else has, so I consider him a "bit" of a mary sue.
   
Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.

Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Formosa wrote:
So we know such a device exists, and is in the hands of the Alpha Legion. rather then say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet" you immediatly decry it as bad writing with a plot hole?

We know from Ruinstorm that Gulliman moved to engaged the Traitor fleets well the Lion laid siege to their holdings, so that the Blood Angels could reach Terra safely. would Gulliman aquiring the item from the Alpha Legion eaither during those actions, or during the scouring REALLY be all that strange? Maybe Gulliman pulled it off Alpharius' still cooling corpse after he killed him?


I decry it as bad storytelling because it is, you say "gee maybe there's a story here thats not been told yet", and I say, why would the alpha legion give it to guiliman? they wouldnt.

No had he gotten the goo we would have been told, did he get it during the scouring, no, as again we would have been told, did he get it off "alpharius" when he killed him, no, such a device would never have been brought into a battle, so far you have raised some decent posts but these are just grasping at straws.



this would be relevant if Cawl had started the Primaris Project after the 21st founding he didn't. what we CAN take away from the 21st founding is that the High Lords of Terra felt comfortable ordering attempts at addressing the flaws in geneseed addressed and the Adeptus Mechanicus where willing to attempt to do so.


No the only thing you can take from the 21st founding is that ONCE during 10,000 years a secret project was green lighted and failed, never tried again and buried, the exception proves the rule, not the other way around.


So to summarise, thus far no one has been able to convince me that Cawl has not broken established tropes and rules of the setting, he has somehow had access to lost technology and allowed to innovate, thus far with zero ramifications, he is somehow better than anyone else in the setting, with skills and abilities that no one else has, so I consider him a "bit" of a mary sue.


we wouldn't have been told if it's not happned yet in the HH books no. there is plenty of time to use the HH line to give us some hints at the orgins of primaris Marines. I think it's a bit early to decry it, Cawl has finally appered in a HH novel, so I suspect we'll be seeing more of him

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Right Behind You

I just hope it turns out Cawl was really prime Fabius Bile when they pull off the rubber mask
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Carlovonsexron wrote:
I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.

Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.


They are/were. And are one of the only cursed founding with no obvious drawback.

Honestly, I don't mind the primaris being a thing so much as I'd like to see it tied to other stuff (like the cursed founding)

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





locarno24 wrote:
Carlovonsexron wrote:
I like to think that Caul actually had something to do with tje cursed founding, and that his first field test of improved marines left alot to he desired.

Not all where horrible mutants. I think the sons of antaeus are supposedly a bit primaris like im being more durable than regular marines, and they are 21st founding ifnI remember right.


They are/were. And are one of the only cursed founding with no obvious drawback.

Honestly, I don't mind the primaris being a thing so much as I'd like to see it tied to other stuff (like the cursed founding)


I suspect it will be, give it 5 years and we'll be joking that every second mystery of 40k was "Cawl and the Primaris Project"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Well, I'd suggest it was either Cawl or The Fabulous Bill.

I will be interested to see how (if) these two interact as time goes on...

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





locarno24 wrote:
Well, I'd suggest it was either Cawl or The Fabulous Bill.

I will be interested to see how (if) these two interact as time goes on...


Bile: Cawl.. I have just one word for you..... HOOOOOOOOOOOOW?!"

Cawl: well it helps that my petri dishes never grow legs and crawl away

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





It would be kinda fun if cawl managed to leverage some artifact or tome of chaos knowledge the thousand soms were interested in in return for them getting all of fabulous Bill's research. (The thousand sons mostly because of all the traitor factions they, probably Ahriman in particular while still at odds with Magnus, seem like the most open to bargaining)

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Skaorn wrote:
I just hope it turns out Cawl was really prime Fabius Bile when they pull off the rubber mask

I'd love that. It seems surprisingly easy to pull off as well.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
 
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