Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

w1zard wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
The point is that, over a long enough time, knowledge of Chaos is inherently corrupting.

No.

-Cain served over 200 years as a commissar, having intimate knowledge about chaos and daemons, even having a greater daemon of slaanesh specifically target him in dreams.

-Uncountable instances of inquisitors in stories that have never turned traitor despite living 200+ years.

-Space marines fighting chaos for multiple hundreds of years non-stop and never turning, even fighting on daemon worlds.

-Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, Cadians living on a planet literally right outside of the eye of terror that fight valiantly for the Imperium. All of them exposed to chaos constantly.

You are just wrong, simply knowing about the existence of the chaos gods or information about them isn't going to turn you to chaos on its own. I have given you multiple lore examples and could continue to do so if I thought it was a constructive use of my time. The only thing you have given me is telling me to read a lore book that is almost 15 years old and is most likely irrelevant at this point because it is directly contradicted by the newer lore. Your only counter-argument: "B-But those books don't count."

Dusk weaver is correct but it depends on a number of factors. Like the individual's intelligence, willpower, greed, insecurities etc. Commissars are only told the most basic aspects of the corrupting nature of Chaos in their training. Obviously marines are told more because they have already endured hardships in training that would drive most people insane. Same goes for certain guardsmen, like for example i wouldn't be surprised if Sgt Harker discovered a great deal about chaos and was unaffected. it is relative to the individual.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...

given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character

Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...

We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed

there's actually a fluff booklet that details the whole siege of Terra that came with the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy board game. I tried to scan the page where Horus dies before I went to work today but my scanner wouldn't connect to my new pc I'll try and get it to work when I get home...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.

It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.

In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
...Commissars are only told the most basic aspects of the corrupting nature of Chaos in their training...

All imperial commissars are taught the names of the four chaos gods, their portfolios, identifying symbols, preferred methods of corruption, and other detailed information to ensure they can spot any kind of chaos shenanigans from a mile away. This information is technically classified, but imperial guard regiments who are assigned combat zones against chaos forces are often briefed by members of the inquisition or the commissariat with some of this information on a need-to-know basis.

Again, if simple knowledge of the chaos gods existence corrupted people then every imperial comissar and inquisitor should fall to chaos, they don't.

It is mostly kept secret to stop Imperial populaces from panicking, not to stop people from turning traitor en masse. Although I suppose many Imperial citizens would turn to chaos worship out of fear if they knew the truth.

If the primarchs had this information it could have stopped many from falling to chaos. With the possible exception of Lorgar who very well may have been pushed to chaos even sooner.

If I'm remembering correctly only like 1 in a billion humans is even eligible to even be accepted for inquisition training and even then most of them don't make it. How much chaos can corrupt someone is about mental fortitude more than anything. For example in the real world a soldier could under go torture every day for months and retain their sanity while most civilians would wind up in a mental health facility after experiencing the same torture once because soldiers are mentally conditioned to deal with that type of trauma in their training.

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.

It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.

In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.

You're missing the grand point I made.

Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

Absolutely comparable. Most people infected with the initial genestealer implants aren't even aware they are infected. A guardsman who is infected can spread his infection wherever he goes throughout the galaxy, possibly spawning cults on dozens of worlds while being completely unaware of being a carrier due to the memory loss caused by the symbiotes.

It is true that a thorough medical examination can detect the implants if they know exactly what they are looking for, so I guess it is easier to detect an infected guardsman then a traitor trying to stay hidden, but I think the situations are very comparable. You don't see the inquisition going around slaughtering imperial guard regiments that have fought tyranids unless they have a good reason to believe the entire regiment might be compromised.

In the situation we are talking about, Kysnaros made the decision to purge all of the regiments that fought on Armageddon to both ensure that chaos didn't spread and to protect the secret of the grey knights. The decision was an unpopular one, opposed vehemently by the Sororitas on Armageddon as well as some of the grey knights. Grimnar was just the only one to stand up to the inquisitor. Now if you want to argue that it wasn't the place of a chapter master to defy the inquisition I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but all I'm saying was that Grimnar had a good point, despite the inappropriateness of defying the inquisition.

You're missing the grand point I made.

Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.

actually genestealers have a hypnotizing gaze, but otherwise your point stands .

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Pre-Heresy it was probably Horus just because he was brought into the Imperium far sooner than his brothers and wisdom by definition comes with experience. Many will point to his turning to Chaos as proof to the contrary but he was deceived with false information and after his corruption his actions were no longer his own as can be proven when he laments his actions to his father while on the verge of death begging to die before the dark gods can control him again...

given the HH series has not reached the point where Horus is killed I'd question that, also ALL the primarchs where tempted at some point or another, Horus failed his test of character

Major events like the deaths of Horus and Malcador as well as the siege of Terra In general have already been well established in the lore long before the black library HH started. As I already said he was presented with false information by the dark gods who came before him as beings that seemed reasonable and benevolent showing him a vision of the 41st millennium as it would be telling him that the emperor would bring about this future when in fact they were tricking Horus into causing it himself...

We know the broad strokes of what happened yes. details like "Horus begged the emperor to kill him in a moment of clarity" is something I'd avoid stating as a definative fact. although Wolfsbane DOES have some evidance to suggest that may be what happens. To be honest I hope not. Horus is more intreasting if he choose and was complicant all along with his damnnationas opposed to someone who was just posessed

Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...

I expect that'll be retconned, I'd caution about taking it to heart, the devs have already said we're going to be suprised by what happens so..

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're missing the grand point I made.

Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.

I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.

A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.

Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're missing the grand point I made.

Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.

I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.

A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.

Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.

A Genestealer has to actually do the implant though, which is why it isn't comparable. Sure it could only be a lone Infantry dude, but the only way to be safe is to actually kill them all or mind wipe them.

Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol

Feel free to name what I got wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.

Sure, but the damage that a guardsman who is tainted with a genestealer implant can do to the Imperium is comparable to the damage that a chaos influenced guardsman can do.

You don't see inquisition death squads wiping out every IG regiment who has fought the Tyranids and the Imperium is still safe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're missing the grand point I made.

Genestealers don't infect you by giving you a mean look, but Daemons can certainly corrupt that way. I'm not even referring to awareness at all.

I'm not missing the point, all it takes for a genestealer implants to infect you is a poke in the wrong spot by a genestealer or to have sexual contact with someone who is already infected. All it takes is for a single trooper to be infected and then the infection starts spreading like wildfire, with genestealer cults popping up everywhere.

A single soldier might get turned to chaos by looking at a symbol of chaos but an individual soldier can't do much on his own, he would need to start a secret chaos cult and ingratiate himself into the leadership of his surroundings to do anything important.

Unless you are saying entire regiments turning traitor at the same time for just as something simple as seeing a chaos symbol, which I don't think is the case, or at least I have never read anything in the lore like that happening.

A Genestealer has to actually do the implant though, which is why it isn't comparable. Sure it could only be a lone Infantry dude, but the only way to be safe is to actually kill them all or mind wipe them.

Which is why I'm saying a Genestealer giving you a mean look is much different from a Daemon giving you a mean look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You don't become part of the Genestealer Cults by observing them but you can be corrupted by Chaos just by seeing a sign of the gods sometimes. Hardly comparable.

can 'you' stop arguing you're getting the lore all wrong lol

Feel free to name what I got wrong.

You first lol

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...

That is a slight reworking of Bill King's "The Emperor and Horus" which was written around 1990. You can find the original version here as well as his Siege of Terra piece.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Knowing Black Library, I am sure the siege will merit and entire trilogy and the boarding of the Vengeful Spirit will be a whole book.

The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.

The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius...

Despite all of the bickering over lore, I think that is pretty much the consensus.

 Karhedron wrote:

 BigbyWolf wrote:
Scanner still won't work so I just used my phone camera. But yeah, again this is from the 2010 version of the Horus Heresy boardgame by Fantasy Flight. I realize that the Black Library series probably won't play out exactly like this but until I see something that suggests otherwise I'm gonna consider this low-canon...

That is a slight reworking of Bill King's "The Emperor and Horus" which was written around 1990. You can find the original version here as well as his Siege of Terra piece.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

Knowing Black Library, I am sure the siege will merit and entire trilogy and the boarding of the Vengeful Spirit will be a whole book.

I figured it had to have been taken from another work of some kind. This also has one of my favorite Rogal Dorn (My favorite Primarch) moments of any written work i've ever read. "Dorn hesitated for a moment. He was not sure what he would do if his beloved master and father was dead. That was a universe he couldn't conceive of. It would be a place of only darkness and despair..."

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.

The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.

Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.

The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.

Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.

I'd put Horus at the bottom. He was weak. He was a fool. He had the galaxy in his hands and let it slip away.

nareik wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The wisest is probably between Guilliman, the Khan, Sanguinius, and perhaps Ferrus Manus.

The least wise is obviously Konrad Curze. Barring frothing at the mouth lunatics, I'd probably go with Lorgar.

Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.

I'd put Horus at the bottom. He was weak. He was a fool. He had the galaxy in his hands and let it slip away.

That's just Abaddon's opinion, Horus came closer than he ever has, plus I don't think he was destined to win, think the Heresy was Chaos' grab for an army that were as good as Astartes and which can operate in the materium. The Emperor even knew Horus would fall but It would take him falling to do it. Horus served a purpose, he went fully over to Chaos, but Abaddon had the luxury of knowing about Chaos in far more detail not to sell his entire soul to the powers. Horus is a Primarch, was something Abaddon can never be.

Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

nareik wrote:
Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.

Absolutely. But can you really blame a kid for finding an assault rifle and accidentally hurting someone with it? It is the responsibility of the father to either keep the assault rifle well out of possible reach of the kid (warnings about not touching it aren't enough, kids don't listen), or teach the kid how to handle the assault rifle the right way. The "father" in this case did neither of those things.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nareik wrote:
Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.

Going 1v1 with the emperor was a mistake on Horus' part. He should have known that even as powerful as he was he was no match for the emperor. He got sloppy at the end and allowed pride and arrogance to ruin possibly one of the most large and successful rebellions in galactic history apart from the necrontyr uprising.

Pre-fall Horus was extremely wise and intelligent (I think Guilliman and Sang still had him beat), but being infused with chaos powers made him unstable. Brilliant still, but unstable.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Magnus is without doubt the least wise, I think that is pretty much indisputable, not for the cluster feth of damage he did to the Imperium, but he is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable, but he was far to overconfident and arrogant with his powers, many times he'd say how 'in this sense or that' that he was more powerful and knowledgeable than the Emperor, he even though he found out about the webway before the Emperor and was excited to tell him that he found it first. He had far more potential and capacity to be wise than any of the other Primarchs, but in terms of his power he acted like a kid with assault rifle.

Absolutely. But can you really blame a kid for finding an assault rifle and accidentally hurting someone with it? It is the responsibility of the father to either keep the assault rifle well out of possible reach of the kid (warnings about not touching it aren't enough, kids don't listen), or teach the kid how to handle the assault rifle the right way. The "father" in this case did neither of those things.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nareik wrote:
Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.

Going 1v1 with the emperor was a mistake on Horus' part. He should have known that even as powerful as he was he was no match for the emperor. He got sloppy at the end and allowed pride and arrogance to ruin possibly one of the most large and successful rebellions in galactic history apart from the necrontyr uprising.

Pre-fall Horus was extremely wise and intelligent (I think Guilliman and Sang still had him beat), but being infused with chaos powers made him unstable. Brilliant still, but unstable.

The Emperor told the Primarchs about the dangers of the warp.

Horus knew the warp very well "you saw, Garviel. It is a secret thing, known to a very few, though the Emperor, beloved of all, knows more than any of us. A secret, Garviel, more than any other secret we are keeping today. Can you keep it? I’ll share it, for it will soothe your mind, but I need you to keep it solemnly.’‘I will,’ Loken said.The Warmaster took another sip. ‘It was the warp, Garviel.’‘The... warp?’‘Of course it was. We know the power of the warp and the chaos it contains. We’ve seen it change men. We’ve seen the wretched things that infest its dark dimensions. I know you have. On Erridas. On Syrinx. On the bloody coast of Tassilon. There are entities in the warp that we might easily mistake for daemons.’‘Sir, I...’ Loken began. ‘I have been trained in the study of the warp. I am well prepared to face its horrors. I have fought the foul things that pour forth from the gates of the Empyrean, and yes, the warp can seep into a man and transmute him. I have seen this happen, but only in psykers. It is the risk they take. Not in Astartes.’‘Do you understand the full mechanism of the warp, Garviel?’ Horus asked. He raised the glass to the nearest light to examine the colour of the wine.‘No, sir. I don’t pretend to.’‘Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communication and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our pres-ence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, fundamental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. ‘Spirits. Daemons. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have taken great pains, through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’He looked across at Loken. ‘Spirits. Daemons. The supernatural. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the universe as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’‘Meaning the warp?’‘Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its horrors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words “alien” and “xenos” to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just “aliens” too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Supernatural, if you will. So let’s use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to re-member is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature."

How better could they have been warned? I think the Emperor warned them well enough. People just say he didn't to make up for the mistakes their favourite Primarchs did, that's why this 'the emperor should have told them' has always persisted as a "fact".

Ahriman to Magnus “The consequences will be mine alone to bear,” interrupted Magnus. “Now do as I ask.” “My lord, I will always obey, but the spell to break into the alattice-way calls for bargains to be struck with the most terrible creatures of the Great Ocean, beings whose names translate as... daemons.”“There is little beyond your knowledge, Ahriman" He still broke into the webway.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nareik wrote:
Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.

His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

nareik wrote:
Primarch isn't a trump card that prevents Horus from being unwise.

If anything it reinforces how weak and foolish he had become.

It is a trump card against being weak and a fool. In what way is a weak or a fool? He got to terra he was losing, so he decided to cut the head off the snake, he lost, so what, he prosecuted the war perfectly, up until Terra the Imperium had lost every significant battle, they were constantly pushed back, every attempt to bar the heretics from Terra failed. Where exactly is this weak or foolish behaviour, do you have any opinion or facts that isn't a quote from Abaddon? He was considered the greatest Primarch at the time, made warmaster had the most successful military campaign history, his legion was leagues ahead of any other only the Ultramarines could boast as much, but not equally.

His entire REBELLION was a sign of weakness. He rebelled because basicly of a fragile ego. It's worth noting once you eliminate Horus from the equation everyone of the rebel primarchs where the most deeply flawed ones Horus was blinded by his Hubris.

Wrong, he turned to chaos to save his life and also because of the visions Chaos showed him, it had nothing to do with his ego. Nowhere in the lore does it even suggest that he did it because of his 'fragile ego' you just made that up.

Another example of Horus being weak.

He was so used to success, on the rare occasion he thought he might fail he would just collapse like a house of cards.

nareik wrote:
Another example of Horus being weak.

He was so used to success, on the rare occasion he thought he might fail he would just collapse like a house of cards.

Can you give an example of that?

You already gave 2;

Panicking that he wasn't going to break Terra in time, so lowering his shields to face the emperor

and the big one

Selling out to chaos because he got a little bit stabbed to death.

Both huge examples of hubris.

nareik wrote:
You already gave 2;

Panicking that he wasn't going to break Terra in time, so lowering his shields to face the emperor

and the big one

Selling out to chaos because he got a little bit stabbed to death.

Both huge examples of hubris.

He was losing the battle so he dropped his shield to cut the head off the snake, it was the only tactical choice he could make. Him turning to Chaos has nothing to do with "He was so used to success, on the rare occasion he thought he might fail he would just collapse like a house of cards." How does not wanting to die and being made to think the Emperor was going to leave them behind have anything to do with fearing he'd failed and collapsing like a house of cards, failed at what 'breathing' lol. You are just making stuff up as you go, you aren't backing anything up with actual lore. I'm out.