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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Peregrine wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No, because 3 Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters is better than the Flamer. Unless you're seriously suggesting that those weapons be bumped up in price, of course.


But that's not a valid comparison. You can't take 3 storm bolters vs. 1 flamer because you're ignoring the cost of the carrier and limits on how many models can take upgrade weapons. If I have an IG infantry squad I can take one special weapon and one heavy weapon. If I can't take a plasma gun anymore I'm still going to take a melta/flamer/whatever because any special weapon is better than the lasgun it replaces.


That would be true in a Power level setting where weapon upgrades come for free, but they don't. Every flamer you take without needing is, is 9 less points you could spent elsewhere. Make plamsma not worthwile and people won't change it for flamers or meltas, they won't take any other special weapon and they will just use other units/models.

I'm not saying plasma don't need to be toned down. I'm saying that needs to go with a upgrade for grav, melta and flamers, to make all the four kind of imperial special weapons equally usefull, everyone at their intended role.

(And I'll add that not all weapons are equal. Plasma its only overpowered in the form of plasma guns. Plasma cannons and plasma pistols are totally fine. The same happens with grav. Grav cannons are fine, but grav guns and grav pistols are not. In the other hand, flamers aside from the Valiant and the Helllhound one are normally bad, the same goes with meltas)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/24 00:32:33


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Silentz wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Swap the points of plasma and melta around and people might actually have a decision to make right now it's so imbalanced other options may aswell not exsist.

See this is weird. Put aside your experience and look at the statline.

Rapid Fire 1 - S7, AP-3 D1 or S8 AP-3 D2 but your model can die
or
Assault 1 - S8 AP-4 Dd6, roll twice pick the best dmg

Doesnt feel like the 2nd option should be cheaper than the first.

24" on the plasma is great tho.


Actually I would disagree as even at a glance rapid fire flat 2d for one less AP vrs d6 says the first profile is more consistent in damage. Plasma gut feeling should be more points than melta.

You also baised your data as melta doesn't get 2d6 pick the highest untill 6 inch. So your not conpairing fairly.

As perigrine says doing the math properly makes the decision of which is worth more even more blatant.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No, because 3 Storm Bolters or Combi-Bolters is better than the Flamer. Unless you're seriously suggesting that those weapons be bumped up in price, of course.


But that's not a valid comparison. You can't take 3 storm bolters vs. 1 flamer because you're ignoring the cost of the carrier and limits on how many models can take upgrade weapons. If I have an IG infantry squad I can take one special weapon and one heavy weapon. If I can't take a plasma gun anymore I'm still going to take a melta/flamer/whatever because any special weapon is better than the lasgun it replaces.

You most certainly can ignore that when you have units like Command Squads and Celestian squads. The moment you have those 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Bolters vs the 1 Flamer and 4 Bolters, you lose in everything but Overwatch (and it is basically no damage so who cares?)

So YES it is a valid comparison. Flamers are garbage and you don't change that nerfing the Plasma Gun.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You most certainly can ignore that when you have units like Command Squads and Celestian squads. The moment you have those 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Bolters vs the 1 Flamer and 4 Bolters, you lose in everything but Overwatch (and it is basically no damage so who cares?)


That isn't a relevant comparison. Why are you leaving special weapon slots empty? And even if storm bolters are better than flamers most units don't get storm bolters as a special weapon option. An IG squad will always take a special weapon, any special weapon, over a lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
That would be true in a Power level setting where weapon upgrades come for free, but they don't. Every flamer you take without needing is, is 9 less points you could spent elsewhere. Make plamsma not worthwile and people won't change it for flamers or meltas, they won't take any other special weapon and they will just use other units/models.


The issue is that carrier cost is a thing. Using a unit's special/heavy weapon slots is almost always more effective than buying entire additional units because getting that additional unit means sinking more points into carrier cost before you can start to add real weapons. Maybe in an extreme situation you strip a squad down to naked lasguns/bolters/whatever because the exact combination of points worked out that way, but as a general rule you aren't doing that. If a unit is so ineffective that you don't want to use those weapon upgrades then you probably aren't taking the unit at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 00:40:26


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You most certainly can ignore that when you have units like Command Squads and Celestian squads. The moment you have those 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Bolters vs the 1 Flamer and 4 Bolters, you lose in everything but Overwatch (and it is basically no damage so who cares?)


That isn't a relevant comparison. Why are you leaving special weapon slots empty? And even if storm bolters are better than flamers most units don't get storm bolters as a special weapon option. An IG squad will always take a special weapon, any special weapon, over a lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
That would be true in a Power level setting where weapon upgrades come for free, but they don't. Every flamer you take without needing is, is 9 less points you could spent elsewhere. Make plamsma not worthwile and people won't change it for flamers or meltas, they won't take any other special weapon and they will just use other units/models.


The issue is that carrier cost is a thing. Using a unit's special/heavy weapon slots is almost always more effective than buying entire additional units because getting that additional unit means sinking more points into carrier cost before you can start to add real weapons. Maybe in an extreme situation you strip a squad down to naked lasguns/bolters/whatever because the exact combination of points worked out that way, but as a general rule you aren't doing that. If a unit is so ineffective that you don't want to use those weapon upgrades then you probably aren't taking the unit at all.

Its because we are comparing unit and weapon costs unless you want to talk about Power Level, which I know you're strictly against.

Also you might not even want that special weapon on an Infantry unit because of range issues (Melta Gun and Flamer) or performance issues (Grenade Launcher and Flamer). Heavy Weapons make more sense for Infantry squads. A more valid comparison would be Vets, but they don't have an equivalent.

Also: does it actually matter who has access to the Storm Bolter and Combi-Bolter? You're making excuses at this point. Either you want the Storm Bolter to be 3 points (which is ridiculous) or the Flamer needs a buff. With that said, you're not taking Flamers ever, and that's NOT because of Plasma Guns. End of story.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Its because we are comparing unit and weapon costs unless you want to talk about Power Level, which I know you're strictly against.


You have to consider whole unit costs, including the cost of the model carrying the weapon, not just the weapon cost. This has nothing to do with PL.

Also you might not even want that special weapon on an Infantry unit because of range issues (Melta Gun and Flamer) or performance issues (Grenade Launcher and Flamer). Heavy Weapons make more sense for Infantry squads. A more valid comparison would be Vets, but they don't have an equivalent.


Uh, no. IG infantry squads always take a special weapon over a lasgun. If plasma is not available then you take the next best thing.

Also: does it actually matter who has access to the Storm Bolter and Combi-Bolter? You're making excuses at this point. Either you want the Storm Bolter to be 3 points (which is ridiculous) or the Flamer needs a buff. With that said, you're not taking Flamers ever, and that's NOT because of Plasma Guns. End of story.


Of course it matters! You're talking about alternatives to plasma so it's a very relevant question if a storm bolter is a legal choice at all. I don't care if a storm bolter is better than a flamer in some abstract comparison when I'm trying to decide which weapon to give my IG infantry squads because the storm bolter is not an option. It's like saying that railguns are better than storm bolters so you should never take storm bolters. If plasma is nerfed then my choices are lasgun, melta, flamer, grenade launcher or sniper rifle. And virtually no scenario ends with the lasgun being the choice, even if plasma is removed entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/24 01:23:40


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Its because we are comparing unit and weapon costs unless you want to talk about Power Level, which I know you're strictly against.


You have to consider whole unit costs, including the cost of the model carrying the weapon, not just the weapon cost. This has nothing to do with PL.

Also you might not even want that special weapon on an Infantry unit because of range issues (Melta Gun and Flamer) or performance issues (Grenade Launcher and Flamer). Heavy Weapons make more sense for Infantry squads. A more valid comparison would be Vets, but they don't have an equivalent.


Uh, no. IG infantry squads always take a special weapon over a lasgun. If plasma is not available then you take the next best thing.

Also: does it actually matter who has access to the Storm Bolter and Combi-Bolter? You're making excuses at this point. Either you want the Storm Bolter to be 3 points (which is ridiculous) or the Flamer needs a buff. With that said, you're not taking Flamers ever, and that's NOT because of Plasma Guns. End of story.


Of course it matters! You're talking about alternatives to plasma so it's a very relevant question if a storm bolter is a legal choice at all. I don't care if a storm bolter is better than a flamer in some abstract comparison when I'm trying to decide which weapon to give my IG infantry squads because the storm bolter is not an option. It's like saying that railguns are better than storm bolters so you should never take storm bolters. If plasma is nerfed then my choices are lasgun, melta, flamer, grenade launcher or sniper rifle. And virtually no scenario ends with the lasgun being the choice, even if plasma is removed entirely.

Whole unit cost? Okay. 87 points for a Command Squad with 4 Bolters and a Flamer, and 86/88 points for a Command Squad with 3/4 Storm Bolters and 2/1 Bolters. That was easy!

Also you'd be paying 2-3 dudes for a Melta shot only hitting half the time. So that's actually a no-go. Plus if you're using them strictly for screening you keep them cheap.

And the options don't entirely matter here, as the units that are doing these weapon spams (Chosen, Command Squads, Sternguard, Celestian, Dominion) all have access to those same weapons in quite a proliferation.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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