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Leo_the_Rat wrote: It may be impossible to enforce a ban on someone's participation in a public event without a legal restraining order or some such.
Trespassing is a thing, and it doesn't require a restraining order. Lots of private companies permanently ban people from their property and events. Casino is a good example, where they ban legal card counters.
There is a big difference between a company and a public event. In the casino instance most states allow a casino to ban someone by law. Gaming events have no such protection. If you have an event that is open to the public then it is open to all members of the public unless there is a legal reason to deny them access. For instance I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out. If there are tickets involved that's another matter.
Let's take the LVO as an example; The TO can refuse to sell me a ticket to an event but, as I understand it, there is an "open gaming" area at the event. The TO can not keep me from playing in that area unless or until I break some rule at that event (and doing something wrong at another event is not pertinent to their actions). If I have been ejected from the event in the past then there may be some basis for the action but then you're probably talking about getting the authorities involved.
All I'm saying is it's not so cut and dry as to being able to enforce a ban from all events. It would be difficult enough to enforce one at the next event a specific that specific TO held let alone some totally different entity.
No, they are not public events. you must buy admission to get on the floor, not just to play in any of the events. Even if that was not the case the organizers are renting the hall it is not public space. It is bought and paid for by them and they do not have to admit you into the space they are paying for. Your problem is thinking they are public events, they are not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/03 20:36:57
Leo_the_Rat wrote: There is a big difference between a company and a public event. In the casino instance most states allow a casino to ban someone by law. Gaming events have no such protection. If you have an event that is open to the public then it is open to all members of the public unless there is a legal reason to deny them access. For instance I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out. If there are tickets involved that's another matter.
Let's take the LVO as an example; The TO can refuse to sell me a ticket to an event but, as I understand it, there is an "open gaming" area at the event. The TO can not keep me from playing in that area unless or until I break some rule at that event (and doing something wrong at another event is not pertinent to their actions). If I have been ejected from the event in the past then there may be some basis for the action but then you're probably talking about getting the authorities involved.
All I'm saying is it's not so cut and dry as to being able to enforce a ban from all events. It would be difficult enough to enforce one at the next event a specific that specific TO held let alone some totally different entity.
Events take place on privately owned property. Citation needed.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out.
If you poop on the floor of the hotel lobby, you can and will be perma-banned from every hotel in the system, even though they are otherwise open to the public. If you choose to set foot on premises, you will be arrested for trespassing. For example, you do that at a Holiday Inn Express in Vegas, you'll also be blocked from the Holiday Inn (regular) in bumfeth Idaho. By pooping on the floor, you lost the right to be treated as part of the general public. It's a specific sanction tied to specific behavior, and that kind of thing can, and has been upheld in law.
Heck, there are hotel blacklists for people who are overly critical. People can, and will, be banned simply for what they say.
eBay allows people to block individual buyers for any reason as well, despite otherwise being available to the public.
The idea that a TO can't enforce a blacklist is nonsense.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out.
If you poop on the floor of the hotel lobby, you can and will be perma-banned from every hotel in the system, even though they are otherwise open to the public. If you choose to set foot on premises, you will be arrested for trespassing. For example, you do that at a Holiday Inn Express in Vegas, you'll also be blocked from the Holiday Inn (regular) in bumfeth Idaho. By pooping on the floor, you lost the right to be treated as part of the general public. It's a specific sanction tied to specific behavior, and that kind of thing can, and has been upheld in law.
Heck, there are hotel blacklists for people who are overly critical. People can, and will, be banned simply for what they say.
eBay allows people to block individual buyers for any reason as well, despite otherwise being available to the public.
The idea that a TO can't enforce a blacklist is nonsense.
The Hotel can do that because they are a property owner and able to control access per the law. A TO doesn't have that legal privlege unless they own the convention center/FLGS/hotel in question.
A bigger concern is that the ITC is not the kind of hierarchical, top heavy system required to enforce a ban even if they wanted to. People think it's like the MTG majors but in reality it's a packet of free tournament rules and the ability to submit ITC points for website even if your tournament didn't follow the rules in the packet. Reecius could ban you from his events, but that's what - three tournaments? You'd just pop up at the others. Whether or not you are allowed at an event is a completely TO-driven decision.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Nudging a model forward? Miss-adding points on your list (too many points)? Placing an extra model in a unit? Where are the lines drawn?
What line? this is all 100% cheating.
Also, your concern is misplaced. It's not about the cheater, which is why it's permanent. It's actually about everyone else that paid money and time to be at the event, protecting their right to a fair and honest game. If you don't get that, then that's your problem in a nutshell.
It boggles my mind that people don't get this.
Thing is if you start permabanning people for going against game rules even a it you end up soon with no players. 40k is such a mess mistakes happen all the time
Leo_the_Rat wrote: There is a big difference between a company and a public event. In the casino instance most states allow a casino to ban someone by law. Gaming events have no such protection. If you have an event that is open to the public then it is open to all members of the public unless there is a legal reason to deny them access. For instance I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out. If there are tickets involved that's another matter.
Let's take the LVO as an example; The TO can refuse to sell me a ticket to an event but, as I understand it, there is an "open gaming" area at the event. The TO can not keep me from playing in that area unless or until I break some rule at that event (and doing something wrong at another event is not pertinent to their actions). If I have been ejected from the event in the past then there may be some basis for the action but then you're probably talking about getting the authorities involved.
All I'm saying is it's not so cut and dry as to being able to enforce a ban from all events. It would be difficult enough to enforce one at the next event a specific that specific TO held let alone some totally different entity.
Nonsense. "Open to the public" does not mean that the organizer must allow anyone in and justify their reasons for a ban in court. Nor is there some list of acceptable reasons that says a history of bad behavior elsewhere is not sufficient and something needs to happen at that specific event. As long as the reason for removing someone does not involve protected classes (race, gender, etc) it's private property and the owner can remove anyone they want. And "this person is a known cheater" is more than enough to establish that the ban is legitimate and not discrimination.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Thing is if you start permabanning people for going against game rules even a it you end up soon with no players. 40k is such a mess mistakes happen all the time
There is a difference between a mistake, especially a mistake involving an ambiguous rule with multiple interpretations, and obvious cheating. Bringing an extra plasma pistol is not a mistake that happens because "40k is such a mess", it's either deliberate cheating or a complete lack of concern for following the rules. There is no ambiguity in adding up the point costs for a list. And if players are unable or unwilling to do such basic things correctly then why should they be allowed to play?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/03 21:22:08
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
alextroy wrote: Reece gave a clear and reasonable explanation why no one would be subject to sactions for past behavior under a new system that hasn’t even been completed or implemented.
Is it reasonable to punish people under rules that did not exist when the infraction occurred? Most people would say no.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I can go into a hotel that is hosting an event open to the public and as long as I follow the rules they can't keep me (specifically) out.
If you poop on the floor of the hotel lobby, you can and will be perma-banned from every hotel in the system, even though they are otherwise open to the public. If you choose to set foot on premises, you will be arrested for trespassing. For example, you do that at a Holiday Inn Express in Vegas, you'll also be blocked from the Holiday Inn (regular) in bumfeth Idaho. By pooping on the floor, you lost the right to be treated as part of the general public. It's a specific sanction tied to specific behavior, and that kind of thing can, and has been upheld in law.
Heck, there are hotel blacklists for people who are overly critical. People can, and will, be banned simply for what they say.
eBay allows people to block individual buyers for any reason as well, despite otherwise being available to the public.
The idea that a TO can't enforce a blacklist is nonsense.
The Hotel can do that because they are a property owner and able to control access per the law. A TO doesn't have that legal privlege unless they own the convention center/FLGS/hotel in question.
Whether or not you are allowed at an event is a completely TO-driven decision.
A Tournament rents space within the Hotel, and can certainly control access to that space.
eBay doesn't even necessarily charge commission until after the sale is concluded, yet thet Seller can blacklist people - you should address that, too, BTW.
If the TOs decide they should ban someone, they can do so.
As someone who regularly travels to Vegas for business conventions (AKA a convention that rents out a hotel just like a tournament), you can be banned from these or not admitted entry. Arguing that they cannot ban you is simply not true.... whether or not they should is an entirely different discussion
zedsdead wrote: wait... did you actually just equate shooting a Phantom Plasma pistol in a table top game with Murder ?!
The US operates off the principle of "do it till it's illegal" and look at us right now.
At the minimum I'd say they should be down a fair number of strikes and if it comes down to more accusations of cheating that are easily verified they're just booted and banned.
Less reasonably I'd say give them a Judge who rides them around with a saddle verifying their lists and actions and see how they perform under the actual rules.
In theory most of these rules have been there for a long time, it's just that these guys have gotten used to bending or breaking them as they see fit. Something has to be done to make it perfectly clear to them that they need to stop with that.
The starting point of a Ban should start with the Event that the offense took place. Has the ATC taken a stance on what they will do with Team Happy next year ? not that i have heard.. all ive seen is there defense of the actions they took during there event.
Why would the Organizer of another event have to step forward and ban a player if there was the possibility that the ATC wont either ban the team of the offending players ?
If you guys want some sort of action...demand, that the events where offenses take place "Ban" these guys. Then other events can assess and place there own ban. Not the other way around.
Hi ETC head referee here. After some interesting discussions with the Team America boys over the weekend I thought to quickly pop my head i here and give my 2 cents.
I switched from Team Scotland Captain (3rd place this year) to head referee 5 years ago. The reason being that I was sick to my back teeth of players deliberately slow playing, outright cheating, or just generally acting like c*nts to their oppponents (I have been to 11/12 ETCbtw). Moreover I was sick of the referees/judges/TO doing nothing.
So if you want something doing right do it yourself.
In the 5 years since I made the switch there has been a marked improvement in player behaviour at the ETC. Why? Because as anyone who has played 40k at the ETC will tell you; woe betide ANYONE who incurs the wrath of me and my referee team. I will... better yet I HAVE, red carded and excluded players on the spot for cheating, deliberately slow playing on multiple occasions, even for just being a total d*ck to their opponent. A red card means you are gone and you are never coming back. No excuses, no apologies, you were warned and now you are gone.
I could write a whole essay on how to manage player behaviour (I am also a teacher and a qualified international rugby referee - both of which I draw upon when refereeing 40k), but to keep it short it has taken me and my team 5 years of tough love, no nonesense discipline to bring the ETC out of the hole it was falling into. Our work is never done; this year 7 players got yellow carded, which in some cases included we the referees even decided what the score of the game would be (One such case was in a game Team America where we decided the Americans player would have won 18-2 but for deliberate slow play). But compared to 9th Age which is run parallel to 40k at the ETC, I don’t have TEAMS blantnetly cheating and/or being complete c*nts to their opponents GAME after GAME, YEAR after YEAR.
Why? Because I do not tolerate anything except friendly-competitiveness. No ifs, no buts. Don’t like it? Don’t come.
So in short either you as a community get tough like I / we did at the ETC, or this kind of shenanigans and behaviour that has got you all worked up is only going to continue. And judging from the conversations I had with Team America over the weekend this sh*t has to stop.
Tough love boys. Tough love.
Feel free to PM me here or on Facebook (neil kerr) if you want to hear more about how I manage one of the biggest team event so in the world from being ruined by the wrong kind of players.
Much love from the ETC
Neil.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/08 00:33:21
Sero Sed Serio
Its a game about war, not war about a game
Supposedly an ETC Chairman and 40K Head Referee...
Skcuzzlebumm wrote: Hi ETC head referee here. After some interesting discussions with the Team America boys over the weekend I thought to quickly pop my head i here and give my 2 cents.
I switched from Team Scotland Captain (3rd place this year) to head referee 5 years ago. The reason being that I was sick to my back teeth of players deliberately slow playing, outright cheating, or just generally acting like c*nts to their oppponents (I have been to 11/12 ETCbtw). Moreover I was sick of the referees/judges/TO doing nothing.
So if you want something doing right do it yourself.
In the 5 years since I made the switch there has been a marked improvement in player behaviour at the ETC. Why? Because as anyone who has played 40k at the ETC will tell you; woe betide ANYONE who incurs the wrath of me and my referee team. I will... better yet I HAVE, red carded and excluded players on the spot for cheating, deliberately slow playing on multiple occasions, even for just being a total d*ck to their opponent. A red card means you are gone and you are never coming back. No excuses, no apologies, you were warned and now you are gone.
I could write a whole essay on how to manage player behaviour (I am also a teacher and a qualified international rugby referee - both of which I draw upon when refereeing 40k), but to keep it short it has taken me and my team 5 years of tough love, no nonesense discipline to bring the ETC out of the hole it was falling into. Our work is never done; this year 7 players got yellow carded, which in some cases included we the referees even decided what the score of the game would be (One such case was in a game Team America where we decided the Americans player would have won 18-2 but for deliberate slow play). But compared to 9th Age which is run parallel to 40k at the ETC, I don’t have TEAMS blantnetly cheating and/or being complete c*nts to their opponents GAME after GAME, YEAR after YEAR.
Why? Because I do not tolerate anything except friendly-competitiveness. No ifs, no buts. Don’t like it? Don’t come.
So in short either you as a community get tough like I / we did at the ETC, or this kind of shenanigans and behaviour that has got you all worked up is only going to continue. And judging from the conversations I had with Team America over the weekend this sh*t has to stop.
Tough love boys. Tough love.
Feel free to PM me here or on Facebook (neil kerr) if you want to hear more about how I manage one of the biggest team event so in the world from being ruined by the wrong kind of players.
Much love from the ETC
Neil.
I have a man crush.
Thank you Sir. Thank you for "getting it" and doing the right thing for the attendees. Players might know it but competition need rules of engagement and their expectations managed. Bravo Sir!
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
8000pts.
7000pts.
5000pts.
on the way. 
