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 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

There were other people I talked to who agreed.



But I see your point.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

There were other people I talked to who agreed.

The plural of Anecdote is not Data.

If you want to, set up a poll here, see what people think.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

There were other people I talked to who agreed.

The plural of Anecdote is not Data.

If you want to, set up a poll here, see what people think.

and even then all it'll do is gauge the opinion of DakkaDakka posters, we're hardly a majority of the player base. although for these purposes I think we make a solid cross section

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.

Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...

If you insist.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.

Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...

Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.

Andykp wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.

Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...

Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.

I certainly do not think Horus' fall was well written, but there are things in the Horus Heresy books I think are good.



There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.

 Excommunicatus wrote:


Cool story. I bought the book that features this in 6th Ed., so by the 'logic' presented here, they still can and will always be able to ride in Land Raiders. 'Cause a single BL 'writer' said so, once. For some bizarre reason they can't do so in-game and are never depicted doing so in the fluff any more. Weird, huh?

Almost as if a single BL 'writer' doesn't get to arbitrarily and unilaterally dictate aspects of the universe.

And yet it was included in the book...


The thing is, not everything in the fiction is going to match what is possible in the game. Nor does it need to. It's entirely possible in universe that a Chapter out there somewhere has a land raider modified to carry a dreadnought. Whether or not that's legal in the game is irrelevant, just as the lack of an option to loot weapons from fallen squad mates in game doesn't invalidate the Eisenhorn books...

Onething123456 wrote:

There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.

That is definitely my favourite thing that those books added. A guy who tries to end religion ending up being worshipped as a god is exactly the sort of black humour this setting needs more.

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

There was no "Imperial Truth" prior to the Horus Heresy books.

That is definitely my favourite thing that those books added. A guy who tries to end religion ending up being worshipped as a god is exactly the sort of black humour this setting needs more.

My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.



The Imperial Truth is a bit hypercritical. The Emperor conquers planets that refuse to join and refuse the Imperial Truth (granted, he is not as barbaric as Isis, but still), and so on.

Onething123456 wrote:





My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.

So much stuff suggests he not only knew, but sculpted the Heresy himself. Which quote are you referring to? I know of a few from that book that support the idea, near the end

 SHUPPET wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:





My quote from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum implies that the Emperor knew about the Horus Heresy.

So much stuff suggests he not only knew, but sculpted the Heresy himself. Which quote are you referring to? I know of a few from that book that support the idea, near the end

This quote below.



‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’

‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’

That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

And then there is just evidence on top of evidence to support this from different books that I can't be bothered to go into now.



Reminds me of Infinity War where everyone thinks Starlord caused everything to go bad, but really what he did is almost definitely a necessary part of the single future where they all live.

And the Emperor granted her his power and immortality after that.

Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.

That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.

And at least one of the Perpetuals does not like the Emperor. Perpetual Oll Persson (he is the Perpetual who does not like the Emperor) basically says the Emperor has been playing with the galaxy for tens of thousands of years, and he wanted no part of it.



He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’

‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’

‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.


https://www.amazon.com/Calth-Horus-Heresy-Laurie-Goulding/dp/1849705755

https://www.amazon.com/Know-No-Fear-Horus-Heresy/dp/1849701350

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.

Although it certainly doubles down the emperor's hipocracy as it implies desprie his whole Imperial truth thing he not only accepts the Mechnius' religion, he sowed seeds that allowed it to occur

BrianDavion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's the one. Pretty awesome quote. I liked Mechanicum, though I know a few didn't like the protagonist. There was a lot of cool moments in there, and at the very least it had some great world building.

Although it certainly doubles down the emperor's hipocracy as it implies desprie his whole Imperial truth thing he not only accepts the Mechnius' religion, he sowed seeds that allowed it to occur

But do remember that he could not destroy the Void Dragon.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

Master of Mankind made it fairly clear that he sees many possible futures and has to try to work with those visions to bring about the future that he wants, and that this isn't always successful simply due to the complexity of actually doing that. And we're given fairly clear hints elsewhere that Magnus was the one who was supposed to wind up on the throne.

It seems likely that the Emperor was aware of the Heresy as one potential (and quite likely) future, and he may well have taken steps to ensure that if it came to pass, it would play out a certain way, but it seems unlikely from what we're told in MoM that it was his preferred outcome.

 insaniak wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's a fair one. There's also one in there where she initially hates the Emperor for what he's done by deceiving the Mechanicum and using them as a tool, but only for a tiny measure of time as she gains all his knowledge of the future, and why he does it. She sees what is described as the never ending possibilities in each one of them humanity dying a brutal death, but the one narrow path he has to steer humanity down for them to survive, and the "lifetime of sacrifice" that awaits, and the selflessness of him to walk this path for the sake of everyone else.

It seems a pretty clear implication that he is aware that he has to end up on the golden throne, and the fact that in everyone else's visions of possible futures in the setting (the Eldar, all the races of the Cabal, etc), humanity die no matter who wins the war, so he sculpted a perfectly balanced Heresy and gave both sides similarly powerful tools to cause a stalemate and had himself taken out of the picture.

Master of Mankind made it fairly clear that he sees many possible futures and has to try to work with those visions to bring about the future that he wants, and that this isn't always successful simply due to the complexity of actually doing that. And we're given fairly clear hints elsewhere that Magnus was the one who was supposed to wind up on the throne.

It seems likely that the Emperor was aware of the Heresy as one potential (and quite likely) future, and he may well have taken steps to ensure that if it came to pass, it would play out a certain way, but it seems unlikely from what we're told in MoM that it was his preferred outcome.

The Board Is Set also deals with this heavily. He knew a Heresy was coming, and as said, sculpted it himself and tried to align the preferred pieces in place. I think he knew he either had to sit on the throne or die however, otherwise the whole thing falls apart. It also seems like he was also a a callous prick to like, exactly half of his sons, and Magnus was one of them, so it does seem sort of deliberately sculpted. However I agree, there was also an implication of Magnus and the throne, though I think that was just an aspect of design necessary as a safety net had a different future come to pass.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Remember when Black Library authors said Dreadnoughts could ride in Land Raiders?

Good times.

Are you saying ADB is wrong? He wrote Master of Mankind. Basically word of God. Are we to say there is a canon in 40k despite several sources and links from the authors showing there is no canon?

Not in the slightest.

I am, however saying that a single Black LIbrary author does not dictate canon. Also, relying on canon and then immediately disavowing canon is an odd tactic.

The others seem to have been off topic, but if ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT tech, then the Emperor is probably not DOAT and will probably never written as DAOT tech.



And ADB wrote the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
One person out of thousands of gamers does not a majority make...

And I answered your questions. The shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (I am not talking about the book, I am talking about the edition itself) said the Emperor saw no need to intervene as the Emperor until the Age of Strife. Its explained in the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. It has always been a fact that he is over 40,000 years old. The Perpetuals in current lore show that.

Please, stop with the verbal diarrhoea...

Onething has been on here for a few months now getting stuff wrong and arguing in his weird repetitive way, but I’ve come to feel quite protective of him. He means well and you even begin to notice he tries to please and appease people more than a lot of others on here. So don’t be so mean bless him. For what it’s worth the whole 1st edition background is mike better than now. I like the advanced story arc but the HH is a hot mess and marines have become a joke.

I am right about the Emperor. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader (not the book) said the Emperor was born in Anatolia, and the Perpetuals show he was around before our time.

ADB wrote a book

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.

And it was hinted at nowhere in the books until Master of Mankind.

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.

He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true

 SHUPPET wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.

He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true

Per the Audio novel "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium" the Emperor was not the emperor until he met Malcador, and until then had simply been another one of the Warlords fighting for Terra (sadly it's an audio story or I'd provide a page referance and quote) Now we can debate what he means by "become the emperor" BUT... we also know Malcador is the last of the sigalites, with his order having dissappered around the rise of the Emperor, perhaps the rest of the Order of the Sigialites sacrificed themselves to boost the Emperor's power to the levels he'd need it to be? ADB's quite right that the evidance is strong that the Emperor has been around for ages, but the evidance he's been around and as powerful as he is at the time of the Heresy is MUCH MUCH weaker. We know with reasonably certianty the Emperor is very old and has been around awhile, it likely he has some psykic talent. We cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that he did not receive a boost during the dark of of technology or shortly afterward.

 SHUPPET wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ADB wrote a book

He wrote Master of Mankind, where Zu (the character)said the Emperor is DAOT tech.

no offense dude but do you really think that was the orgin of that theory? or the only time it's been advanced? ADB specificly used it because it was a theory that's been floating around for awhile. As he told you, it was one Alan Bligh personally favored, You know who Alan Bligh was right? He was the lead Forge World writer until his passing a year ago. he's been as deeply involved in the HH as ADB has been, if not more so.

He provided his supporting evidence, I'm inclined to believe him unless you can disprove it. Shouldn't be hard if what you say is true

Yes, SHUPPET. I as well think my quote from Age of Darkness shows the Crusade had moral boundaries.




"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness

To me that quote says the emperor knew what Angron was like and knew how bad he was but used angrons rage and genocidal mania when it suited him. He might not have liked it but he certainly took advantage of it.