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 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Why do you think they are moving again?

Because they count as having moved at the time they disembark due to the transport's move.

The way I read it, they only count as having moved so long as they stay embarked. Once they disembark they no longer count as having moved since they are not currently embarked.

Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

 doctortom wrote:
No, it already counts as having moved when it disembarks, so it does not get to move. You can try to select them later in the phase, but they already count as having moved at that point as per the FAQ, so are not eligible to move again. that phase.

The rules say:

BRB Page 177 wrote:No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

It doesn't matter if it "counts as" being moved, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move. It's the same as Warptime not allowing units to benefit from FLY. "As if" is not the same as "is".

 DeathReaper wrote:
Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

They were inside when the vehicle started moving, therefore they are affected by this FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
No, it already counts as having moved when it disembarks, so it does not get to move. You can try to select them later in the phase, but they already count as having moved at that point as per the FAQ, so are not eligible to move again. that phase.

The rules say:

BRB Page 177 wrote:No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.

It doesn't matter if it "counts as" being moved, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move. It's the same as Warptime not allowing units to benefit from FLY. "As if" is not the same as "is".

So if something counts has having fired its weapons before you select it during the shooting phase, do you allow the unit to fire its weapons?

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Q: If a transport moves, do any models embarked inside it count as also having moved?
A: Yes

The models are not inside so they are not affected by this FAQ.

Therefore the base rules apply about being able to act normally after disembarkation.

So they really only move once.

They were inside when the vehicle started moving, therefore they are affected by this FAQ.

False.

The models embarked inside it count as also having moved. So if they are still embarked they count as also having moved.

But, it hasn't actually been moved that turn, so it can be selected to move as per the rules for disembarking.

An interesting development. I have been made aware that there is another unit that can disembark a transport after it has moved.

A Soaring Spite Harlequin Warlord with the Skystrider Warlord Trait. According to the Harlequin FAQ, it can move after it disembarks from a transport.

Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Dandelion wrote:
Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Turn one super melta and FRFSRF in rapid fire range with hot-shot lasguns!

 Apple Peel wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Yeah, I think that's it. Super glad Valkyries still serve a purpose for Scions.

Turn one super melta and FRFSRF in rapid fire range with hot-shot lasguns!

Huzzah!

I am delighted to be wrong.

Element Games posted me a Valkyrie and another box of Scions out this morning, actually!

It will undoubtedly take me a couple of months to get them painted so I'd expect this to be FAQ'd out in March just before I actually use them

I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because Scions are cool, and if played right against most people, they should be theoretically fine, considering they are kitted out most of the time to be anti-MEQ.
I’m pretty sure the majority of player play Marines, so this gives one a natural advantage.

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

4 plasma scions jumping out of a valkyrie with +1 to hit and the "reroll all wounds" scions stratagem will AVERAGE over 14 unsaved wounds against T8 3+ save.

They can deep strike within 9 anyway, but this allows them to get within 3" of the screen to get the things BEHIND the screen into half range and shoot over the screen.

Before this change hot shot lasguns always came in at greater than half range, so would be denied rapid fire and their exploding 6s didn't trigger. This more than doubles the effectiveness of that weapon.

Before this, melta came in at greater than half range and couldn't get exploding 6s. It will now them, plus get roll 2d6 pick the highest damage.

There are defo benefits to this.

Dadavester wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

AM transport formation? What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are talking about Rapid Redeploy, I’m thinking that stratagem specifically excludes you from moving the chosen unit, however, Grav-chute Inserion and the Skystrider trait do not.

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

Dadavester wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Good find!

Q: When a Soaring Spite Warlord uses the Skystrider Warlord
Trait to disembark after their transport moves, can the Warlord
then move normally as well?
A: Yes.


Are we done here?

Just because Unit A has been FAQ'd to allow something, doesn't automatically mean that unit B can do it as well. The AM Transport Formation states that units using the formation cannot move further, so should that mean that units in a Valk cannot as well?

However given the communities overall view I will accept that maybe I am wrong, I do think it still needs an FAQ either way.

Absolutely - it clearly needs a FAQ entry, judging by how many opposed that reading of the rules. The Harlequin one is hard to find, even though it does answer the question at hand quite well, unless you refuse to apply it "because it's not mentioned by name"

If the formation explicitly states that units disembarking from their formation transport cannot move, that's an additional restriction of that formation.

Otherwise wouldn't I be able to also claim the benefits that formation might provide?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

What was your list.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

that makes sense - I've played regular Command Squads with Officers, and those are already pretty good hitting on threes, with no survivability. Looks like the formation is simply too good - it feels like I've seen that before... is that you, Seventh Edition, hiding in a Campaign book?!

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I look forward to the number of Valkayrie's to be seen a tournaments soon. Enjoy!

I don't think it'll change since this was available since the start of 8th. 2 Command Squads and a Commander in a Valk, or one command and one special weapons squad plus commander per Valk if you want to run 2 or 3 valks.

The real issue is the rule of three AND the limitation to command Squads requiring a Commander each

I don't see why you'd want to pay extra for Tempestus

Because of the horrifically busted Tempestus Drop Formation. That's why.
And a Squad of 10 Scions puts out slightly more Plasma than a Command Squad in a more effective Order Package, while giving you the Hellguns for clearing out another unit that the plasma isn't melting. [Probably the same unit you reduced a little with the fire from the transport.]

“Horrifically busted.” You can’t embark and disembark a transport in the same turn, so you only get the +1 to hit with your Grav-Chute Commando Warlord/Field Commander every other turn. Then our two stratagems. The really good one, Aerial Fire Support, allowing a nearby Valkyrie to overwatch for a charged Scion squad. Then there is Precision Drop, making it so Scion squads don’t have to roll a d6 for the chance to die after moving 20” or more. And then there is our useless relic, making one character, and only that character, have a 2+ don’t feel psychic powers.
At best you could say Tempestus Drop Force is pretty good, which really just comes from good synergy.

I think you are seriously underestimating the effectiveness of this formation. I've just come from fielding it in a tournament, and it is brutal. Each full squad of stormies leaping out a Valk is a turn 1 kill on pretty much anything short of a Knight. Then your opponent has to find a way of dealing with a ton of stormtroopers, in their deployment zone, with half their firepower gone. If they don't kill every last stormtrooper their turn two, they fall back into the transports, and do it again the turn after. Meanwhile the transports themselves are no joke in terms of durability, and if you stash them full of stormtroopers and a Single Officer of the fleet, you have the option to kick him out the back for re-rolls, or just leave him onboard and throw him out as you pass over objectives for extra a scoring and occasional mortal wound generation.

I stress, these are Plasmaguns that Hit on 2+, Re-roll 1's, and generate extra shots on 5's [Occasionally from re-rolling the 1's] that can't kill the user with overcharge and 50% of the time will re-roll failed wounds. If the target is particularly tough, the Hellgunners can toss 5 Krak Grenades too.

What was your list.

It's posted in the list forum - But a brief summary...

Stormtrooper Battalion -

Tempestor, Order Stick, Field Commander, Laurels,
Tempestor, Bolt Pistol

2 * 10 Stormtroopers [4 Plasma, 1 Pla Pistol]
1 * 5 Stormtroopers [2 Plasma, 1 Plas Pistol]

3* Valkyarie Missile Pods,Multi Laser
1* Valkayrie Hellstrikes, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter

Tech Priest, Officer of the Fleet,

Sisters Battalion - Bloody Rose
Cannoness, Hitting Sword, Re-roll wounds Warlord Trait,
HQ Priest, Chainsword

5 Repentia
Mistress - Brazier of Denial

5 Sisters, 2 * Storm
5 Sisters, flamer
5 Sisters, bolt pistol

2 * Sisters Rhino each with 2 Stormbolters.

Pretty sure I didn't miss anything. 1500 points exactly. If I bumped it to 2k, I'd probably chuck a stormtrooper command squad, make the third squad 10man, add in an excorist, and another rhino full of sisters.

4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

nekooni wrote:
4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

They come in Squadrens, just like Russ'.

For theme reasons, I took one squad of 3, and one lone flyer, but as my opponent pointed out, one squad of two and two independents would have made more sense.
[One Datasheet is 1-3 of them]

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

nekooni wrote:
4 valks usually isn't a legal list though. Maybe swap in a vendetta?

They come in Squadrens, just like Russ'.

For theme reasons, I took one squad of 3, and one lone flyer, but as my opponent pointed out, one squad of two and two independents would have made more sense.
[One Datasheet is 1-3 of them]

Damm. Should have known that, but since I only own 3 it never came up

Since this seems to have turned into a tactics discussion, I think we're done here.