Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward

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**Tibs Ironblood**

Sterling191 wrote:
For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.

Perhaps I have not elucidated my thoughts as clearly as I would wish, but deep striking 100 vets was never something I thought of. The reason I am ragging on primaris auto bolt rifles as being bad is because there is a blatantly better option available. Once you have your two or three veterans squads DSing in (could be four if you use beacon angelis) they cover the job that auto bolt rifle intercessors would do. Or if you want you can just walk them around the board like you would do with the auto bolter bros and move 1d6 inches less, but put out superior firepower and have a 3++ invuln. Auto bolt rifle intercessors just don't have a niche to fill that something else does not do better. They are passable in DW if you don't want to use veterans, but for normal marines they just don't perform at all.

**Xenomancers**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

If your objective with the assault bolters is board control then veterans do it better with the ability to deepstrike anywhere (or take transports if that is to your fancy) and lay out far more damage. Especially as far as allies go the vets greatly outclass the assault bolter boys. Assault bolter intercessors are only moving an additional 1d6 inches so lets not pretend that is amazing mobility. A guardsmen ordered to move move move runs literal laps around them as do bikers. You do have a very good point about mortal wounds though. That is THE hard counter to them.

Xenomancers wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

If you want to get close why not just deepstrike? Their melee output is identical to veterans with shields and their offensive output is worse than veterans with storm bolters (especially DW ones). If you are running vanilla intercessors with auto bolt rifles yes you do get the 1d6 extra advance to get close (something you really don't even want to do) and suffer a -1 to hit. 10 whole intercessors put out 20 s4 shots for 10 s4 hits. That's just not scary. DW auto bolt rifles have a much better time with SIA, but even then I'd be tempted to just take my SS/SB vets to sit back and do the same with a 3++ invuln.

You ignore the advance penalty with an aggressor correct?
Turn 1 you will be shooting with autobolter intercessors against practically anything you want with a 6"+d6 move and 24" range. Plus youll still be ap-1 or wounding on 2's...whichever is best. I wouldn't run all of them this way. Bolt rifle is still probably better most of the time cause you are 30" range and can use 2+ to wound and already have ap -1.

However with 2 point storm shields...why would you take anything else? 2 points for a 3++. Man this game is wacky.

**Tibs Ironblood**

The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

**fraser1191**

There's a couple things I'd like to see,

Bikes
Proper melee unit
"hellblasters" with onslaught gattling cannons
And a second transport either drop pod or razorback(assuming the repulsor is the rhino varient and not the LR variant)

**casvalremdeikun**

fraser1191 wrote:
There's a couple things I'd like to see,

Bikes
Proper melee unit
"hellblasters" with onslaught gattling cannons
And a second transport either drop pod or razorback(assuming the repulsor is the rhino varient and not the LR variant)

I think a Razorback variant with either a Las Talon or a pair of Twin Plasma Incinerators would be cool. It doesn't need to be a gunboat and it shouldn't just be a Repulsor with fewer weapons. I have seen someone suggest a Land Speeders Storm successor. That would certainly be neat, but I want something that is enclosed. Something about the size of a Rhino model. Probably Grav based, but I would like something wheeled or tracked.

Anyway, I am looking at running a full squad of Hellblasters backed by Pedro Kantor and an Apothecary now. Dropping Heroes of Rynn's World and having less fear from Overcharging is pretty great. The Apothecary could just resurrect anyone that has died. Another option would be to stick the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait on a Lieutenant and have him go with them instead of Pedro Kantor. Now, the question is, do I give that Lieutenant a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle, MS Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Power Sword.

It is too bad Expert Instructor Warlord Trait doesn't work on non-Liberator Strike Force units, otherwise I would stick that Lieutenant with a squad of Lascannon Devastators and give him a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle.

**Xenomancers**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

Well orks are a great example of a time when auto bolters on DW primaris make sense. They only have a 6+ save or a 5++ and they aren't exact fast. You can kite the crap out of ork boys with intercessors that are advancing and shooting and they don't have armor to speak of anyways. What I was thinking about was running 1 aggressor 1 inceptor with plasma and 8 auto bolters - probably taking 3 units like this and like 1 or 2 units of 5 boltrifle 4 hellbalsters 1 inceptor with plasma for going after the bigger threats. That's 100 wounds with a 3+ save and you still have some points left over for your Full HQ allotment and probably a vet unit with storm bolters and storm shields that you deep strike in or 2 units depending to make 6 troops. Then probably as many twin las and missle dreads as you can fit.

That is a really strong force. I think tournament worthy if played well.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Xenomancers wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The aggressor being in the squad is an advantage DW have thus why I said there version is superior (on top of the SIA). Aggressors can be very good in those kill teams and they have served me very well. Just three of them mixed in three different squads (3 total) made a HUGE impact in my last game against orks. Absolute UNITS.

Well orks are a great example of a time when auto bolters on DW primaris make sense. They only have a 6+ save or a 5++ and they aren't exact fast. You can kite the crap out of ork boys with intercessors that are advancing and shooting and they don't have armor to speak of anyways. What I was thinking about was running 1 aggressor 1 inceptor with plasma and 8 auto bolters - probably taking 3 units like this and like 1 or 2 units of 5 boltrifle 4 hellbalsters 1 inceptor with plasma for going after the bigger threats. That's 100 wounds with a 3+ save and you still have some points left over for your Full HQ allotment and probably a vet unit with storm bolters and storm shields that you deep strike in or 2 units depending to make 6 troops. Then probably as many twin las and missle dreads as you can fit.

That is a really strong force. I think tournament worthy if played well.

If you are concerned with ork hordes look no further than veterans. Deepstrike to always make sure you get to hit first. 3+ re-rolling 1s wounding on 2s re-rolling with 40 shots per squad. Each 10 man squad can wipe out or HEAVILY damage a 30 boy blob.

**Asherian Command**

I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

**The Newman**

Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Bolded section is a problem for Marines in general and not just for Primaris, all the scenarios count bodies rather than point and Marines cost too much. GW even recognized that and gave us an ObSec rule before anyone else had it, and then hit us with the collateral nerf bat. Maybe a rewrite our special ObSec rule so Tac Marines and Intercessors count double or even triple for ObSec or something like that.

**Stormonu**

Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Personally, I’d like to see Aggressors just replace terminators - bumped up in stats if needed. I would like to see a 5-man transport along the lines of a Rhino/Razorback and some sort of bike (grav or wheeled). As far as heavy weapons, if they got an alt build to Hellblasters and that was it, that’d be fine (maybe Lascannons?).

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

**Blackie**

Stormonu wrote:

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

**Crimson**

Blackie wrote:
Stormonu wrote:

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

Well, if Primaris units could ride in them, they might see some use. Now that the RG stratagem is nerfed putting some Hellblasters or even Invictus Veteran Intercessors in the pods might be worth the points.

**Bremon**

Primaris not being able to ride at least in things that terminators can is ridiculous. 10 plague marines can fit in a rhino yet 5 Intercessors can’t. Give me a break. Hellblasters should be popping out of pods obliterating things. Veteran Intercessors with rifles should be firing four shots each jumping out of an assault cannon Razorback imo. Aggressors should be obliterating chaff with the help of a Land Raider Crusader.

**Asherian Command**

Stormonu wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
I think Primaris need : Terminators, transport, more heavy weapons, veteran units, close combat squads that actually do their job, a dedicated tank hunter / titan hunter unit, techmarine, and to have a drop pod option that is effective....

(Before being nerfed again)

Primaris need a lot of support chiefly better rules for normal marines, and more support in terms of transports and elite infantry. They really can't secure objectives effectively and lack staying power or damage.

Personally, I’d like to see Aggressors just replace terminators - bumped up in stats if needed. I would like to see a 5-man transport along the lines of a Rhino/Razorback and some sort of bike (grav or wheeled). As far as heavy weapons, if they got an alt build to Hellblasters and that was it, that’d be fine (maybe Lascannons?).

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I rather have aggressors be the Centurion replacement. While Primaris getting their own terminator counterpart.

**Bremon**

I agree with Asherion Command. Terminator armour is so iconic and I’ve loved the look of it for 20 years; hulked to Primaris proportions with less spindly thighs would make for fantastic minis.

**The Newman**

A pure Primaris force has two glaring weaknesses right now:

1) No unit that is dangerous in melee has a good delivery method.
2) The only real anti-armor ranged weapons are on the 300+ pt Repulsor.

That's the minimum GW needs to address to make Primaris viable as a stand-alone force. #1 could be addressed with a "disembark after the transport moves," strategem (and Marines need something like that anyway). #2 should hopefully get resolved organically as more things get released and GW lets one of their inevitable broken units escape.

**Crimson**

Bremon wrote:
I agree with Asherion Command. Terminator armour is so iconic and I’ve loved the look of it for 20 years; hulked to Primaris proportions with less spindly thighs would make for fantastic minis.

Yep. I want this. Gravis is not the same.

**Stormonu**

Blackie wrote:
Stormonu wrote:

Drop pods need to be retired though or completely reimagined; a strategm is sufficient for deepstrike without need for a drop pod model.

I think deepstrike should be limited a lot in each codex. Then the drop pods, at the current price of 65 points, would have a role maybe. I'd also let them arrive closer than 9'' to the enemy (to fire flamers and meltas at full strenght) but if you do you can't assault in the same turn.

Yeah, I agree I’d like to see deep strike curtailed a LOT more; it takes a good bit away from the maneuver part of the game when everybody/everything can just drop immediately into shooting/charge range rather than have to tactically work their way there.

It would be interesting though, if you could drop pods ON an enemy squad - at some risk to the pod/passengers. Certainly, dropping them closer than 9” seems like a good special ability. At the same time, with realities of assaults like St. Marie Elise - where troops parachuting right into an armed enemy were mutilated, the advantage of dropping closer should come with a risk the arrivals getting plastered before they can get their bearings (maybe represented by counter Strategms instead of the typical GW, “roll a 1 and die”).

**casvalremdeikun**

If Drop Pods could hold the same units they used to be able to, but also came in Turn 1 instead of having to wait until Turn 2 like most units, they would be worth their points.

**Lemondish**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.

Perhaps I have not elucidated my thoughts as clearly as I would wish, but deep striking 100 vets was never something I thought of. The reason I am ragging on primaris auto bolt rifles as being bad is because there is a blatantly better option available. Once you have your two or three veterans squads DSing in (could be four if you use beacon angelis) they cover the job that auto bolt rifle intercessors would do. Or if you want you can just walk them around the board like you would do with the auto bolter bros and move 1d6 inches less, but put out superior firepower and have a 3++ invuln. Auto bolt rifle intercessors just don't have a niche to fill that something else does not do better. They are passable in DW if you don't want to use veterans, but for normal marines they just don't perform at all.

Yeah, it's weird. The biggest hit to the efficacy of DW Primaris turned out to be a completely unnecessary and grossly excessive buff to Veterans.

The gap between the two existed before, but there was a case for using Fortis Kill Teams.

That case no longer exists. You're now actively harming your list by picking any single Primaris option over its mini counterpart.

**Dysartes**

Martel732 wrote:
Lootas are almost as bad for primaris. So are necron destroyers. So are HSBCs. Etc.

I'm confused, Martel - why are multiples of a bank bad for Primaris?

Irbis wrote:
And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?

Please put your tinfoil hat on.

Well, the IF box is a CF box waiting to happen, I guess.

Martel732 wrote:
A marine with missile launcher or plasma cannon is a joke compared to reaper with no buffs. Just ask mr. Ghostkeel.

Last I checked, Mr Ghostkeel was neither a marine with a missile launcher, nor a marine with a plasma cannon... so why am I asking him?

**The Newman**

The CA point changes left the Tac Marine profile in a really weird spot.

14 ppm veterans looks like the final nail for them, but then you realize Sternguard have to take the special issue bolters so they're actually 16 ppm, and Company Veterans might as well have had the Storm Shield just added to their profile so they're also 16 ppm. And while a 3++ is clearly better than W2 against the stuff that tears up Marines, Veterans are using up an Elite slot that could be going to a Dreadnaught or Vanguard Vets now that those are at a better price-point.

It makes me think the "old-marines are getting soft-squatted" people are on to something, and I'm thinking seriously about building Dev squads out of my non-Deathwatch-legal heavies, and then re-badging everything that's left as DW.

**Crimson**

Using up an elite slots means nothing. There are six in a Battalion and if that's not enough Vanguard Detachments exist.

**The Newman**

Crimson wrote:
Using up an elite slots means nothing. There are six in a Battalion and if that's not enough Vanguard Detachments exist.

Wait, what?

[Checks Battlescribe/]

Well I'll be damned. Wonder why I though it was only 3.

Not sure it actually changes my calculations much though.

**Togusa**

Irbis wrote:
lolman1c wrote:
It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.

1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.

1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"

Nonsense. This formation is complete garbage, seeing you 'forgot' about 2 CP per unit minimum to even use it, stalker is bad, way too expensive, one shot only, and completely lacks bite, while auto bolter is just glorified normal bolter for way too many points. Yup, paying 3 CP (since you forgot that bit) to deal 6 more S4 AP- hits is sure great!

You also "forgot" that Sternguard with storm bolters, who are less expensive than primaris BTW, do 4 shots all the time, are cheaper, and don't cost 3 CP. Gee, standard SM are sure bad!

Literally the only OK primaris formation in Vigilus is the Crimson Fist one. Gee, that sure benefits all of two CF players on this board, and pushes primaris sales up...

And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?

You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?

Please put your tinfoil hat on.

Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.

Yup, and that's why veteran standard marines got massive point cuts in CA and avesome new formations in Vigilus.

"Anywhere"?

Meanwhile, primaris Reivers and Hellblasters got nothing, their bodies being now more expensive than Intercessors for no reason whatsoever. These two are actually really going nowhere...

Lol. Dude I annihilated a guard list this past weekend with this formation. Dude literally got mad and quit turn two because all his characters were dead turn 1 shooting.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Was there literally no way for him to LoS block his characters? No Terrain? No tanks to hide behind?

**The Newman**

What strikes me about that Crimson Fist formation is it's hitting the shelves at exactly the same time as the new City Fight rules, meaning that their Chapter Trait suddenly got a whole lot more valuable.

Edit: Same goes for Imperial Fist. That one doesn't benefit Primaris, but it does help all the Dreadnaughts, Centurions, and the Vindicator, none of which got quite enough of a points drop.

**Asherian Command**

The Newman wrote:
What strikes me about that Crimson Fist formation is it's hitting the shelves at exactly the same time as the new City Fight rules, meaning that their Chapter Trait suddenly got a whole lot more valuable.

Hopefully that shapes up the meta. We will see.

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

**Crimson**

Asherian Command wrote:

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

Speaking of Aggressors and close combat units, I really feel that their fists should give them an extra attack. A pair of lightning claws gives an extra attack and this pair of fists should too.

**Asherian Command**

Crimson wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:

I just hope its enough but we need cost reductions for primaris inceptors and aggressors severely to make them viable and a close combat unit to help the primaris issue of getting stuck in tar pits.

Speaking of Aggressors and close combat units, I really feel that their fists should give them an extra attack. A pair of lightning claws gives an extra attack and this pair of fists should too.

I mean pistols used to give you an additional attack as well. why they removed that i'll never know :derp:

But it should honestly its two of the same weapon it should confer +1 attack.

your swinging both your fists not one!

If anything i would love to see a 'termintator' gravis armor that has dual lighting claws with underslung bolters. Except their whole idea is just close combat that'd be cool.