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2019/01/18 01:59:48
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Strg Alt wrote: ...Daemonette: Claws or Hands with dagger & war fan like Kitana from Mortal Kombat. Daemon legs for fast running and jumping or vanilla with boots.
I'd absolutely buy a whole unit of Daemonettes in bondage gear with battle fans all set up vaguely like Morghul2 out of Hordes.
alextroy wrote: I'd leave the rules alone and concentrate on 'fixing' the Matched Play Points Values to encourage fielding armies that appear more like the source material than the min/maxed units we see now days.
Example: The Tactical Squad
Let's ignore whether the points values on the squad or the upgrades are correct and concentrate on how the Matched Play Points are calculated. Currently it is 13 points per model, plus upgrades. Doesn't matter if you take 5 or 10 Marines in the squad, they are 13 points each. As if the first 5 models that include the Sergeant are really only as valuable as the next 5. Add in that the cost of weapons upgrades do not encourage you to take them, since they just spike the value of the model. The result is you never see a 10-man Tactical Squad with Flamer and Missile Launcher. It's just not an optimal use of points (and let's not even talk about Detachments).
I would drive more of the cost into the minimum unit size cost, reducing the cost of additional models (the Sergeant should cost something) and upgraded weapons.
Starting Squad (Sergeant and 4 Marines): 75 Points
Each additional Model (up to squad size 10): 11 Points
All Special and Heavy Weapons have the cost reduced by 5 points. Yes, that is a 1 Point Flamer, a 6 Point Plasma Gun, a 5 Point Heavy Bolter, and 15 Point Missile Launcher
The result is while a full squad is no cheaper, Maxing starts to look a lot better than Minimal Size Squads with no upgrades.
And then stuff like abbadon and Guilliman show up and rain on your parade.
No seriously the cost for Marine special tools is so high because both of these charchters exist, and with both of these charachters the stuff is generally acceptable to good. Problem comes in when you neither want to play UM or BL /these without their headhoncho. Then you will be fethed over.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/01/18 14:32:53
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
But Catlady merely brought Reapers and Spears up to *reasonable* points levels, not *only good with Catlady* points levels.
(Practically every statement with Gman should be repeated with Catlady to see if you feel the same way when talking about another faction.)
Gman, Abbaddon (and Catlady) should all cost enough points such that lists without them are still viable, without making lists with them OP. And that's hard to do.
2019/01/18 14:48:49
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Bharring wrote: But Catlady merely brought Reapers and Spears up to *reasonable* points levels, not *only good with Catlady* points levels.
(Practically every statement with Gman should be repeated with Catlady to see if you feel the same way when talking about another faction.)
Gman, Abbaddon (and Catlady) should all cost enough points such that lists without them are still viable, without making lists with them OP. And that's hard to do.
Yep catlady is the same category.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/01/19 23:15:36
Subject: Re:If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
alextroy wrote: I'd leave the rules alone and concentrate on 'fixing' the Matched Play Points Values to encourage fielding armies that appear more like the source material than the min/maxed units we see now days.
Example: The Tactical Squad
Let's ignore whether the points values on the squad or the upgrades are correct and concentrate on how the Matched Play Points are calculated. Currently it is 13 points per model, plus upgrades. Doesn't matter if you take 5 or 10 Marines in the squad, they are 13 points each. As if the first 5 models that include the Sergeant are really only as valuable as the next 5. Add in that the cost of weapons upgrades do not encourage you to take them, since they just spike the value of the model. The result is you never see a 10-man Tactical Squad with Flamer and Missile Launcher. It's just not an optimal use of points (and let's not even talk about Detachments).
I would drive more of the cost into the minimum unit size cost, reducing the cost of additional models (the Sergeant should cost something) and upgraded weapons.
Starting Squad (Sergeant and 4 Marines): 75 Points
Each additional Model (up to squad size 10): 11 Points
All Special and Heavy Weapons have the cost reduced by 5 points. Yes, that is a 1 Point Flamer, a 6 Point Plasma Gun, a 5 Point Heavy Bolter, and 15 Point Missile Launcher
The result is while a full squad is no cheaper, Maxing starts to look a lot better than Minimal Size Squads with no upgrades.
And then stuff like abbadon and Guilliman show up and rain on your parade.
No seriously the cost for Marine special tools is so high because both of these charchters exist, and with both of these charachters the stuff is generally acceptable to good. Problem comes in when you neither want to play UM or BL /these without their headhoncho. Then you will be fethed over.
Good job missing the point. My rewrite wish is about the philosophy of points cost for unit, not the exact points themselves. We need points rules that encourage fluffy armies, not once that discourage them. That what I want to fix.
Proper points values for units overall is an entirely different issue. I want that too.
2019/01/19 23:40:50
Subject: Re:If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
alextroy wrote: I'd leave the rules alone and concentrate on 'fixing' the Matched Play Points Values to encourage fielding armies that appear more like the source material than the min/maxed units we see now days.
Example: The Tactical Squad
Let's ignore whether the points values on the squad or the upgrades are correct and concentrate on how the Matched Play Points are calculated. Currently it is 13 points per model, plus upgrades. Doesn't matter if you take 5 or 10 Marines in the squad, they are 13 points each. As if the first 5 models that include the Sergeant are really only as valuable as the next 5. Add in that the cost of weapons upgrades do not encourage you to take them, since they just spike the value of the model. The result is you never see a 10-man Tactical Squad with Flamer and Missile Launcher. It's just not an optimal use of points (and let's not even talk about Detachments).
I would drive more of the cost into the minimum unit size cost, reducing the cost of additional models (the Sergeant should cost something) and upgraded weapons.
Starting Squad (Sergeant and 4 Marines): 75 Points
Each additional Model (up to squad size 10): 11 Points
All Special and Heavy Weapons have the cost reduced by 5 points. Yes, that is a 1 Point Flamer, a 6 Point Plasma Gun, a 5 Point Heavy Bolter, and 15 Point Missile Launcher
The result is while a full squad is no cheaper, Maxing starts to look a lot better than Minimal Size Squads with no upgrades.
And then stuff like abbadon and Guilliman show up and rain on your parade.
No seriously the cost for Marine special tools is so high because both of these charchters exist, and with both of these charachters the stuff is generally acceptable to good. Problem comes in when you neither want to play UM or BL /these without their headhoncho. Then you will be fethed over.
Good job missing the point. My rewrite wish is about the philosophy of points cost for unit, not the exact points themselves. We need points rules that encourage fluffy armies, not once that discourage them. That what I want to fix.
Proper points values for units overall is an entirely different issue. I want that too.
Oh i fully understand that, but so long both of these and any other charachters of these kind exists, so long will your (and also Mine) Not be able to be fullfilled.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/01/20 11:30:34
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
I think the reason we are not seeing any new Aspect Warriors is that that plan is to phase them out in the same way the normal marines are being slowly replaced by primaris marines. The Eldar have always had lots of troop types and this makes overhauling the range a big task. So likely the total number of troop types will come down.
With the rescue of Isha, Craftworld Eldar could evolve into something different. I think this has already started with the fracture of Biel Tan. Armies will no longer represent well-supplied forces, but rather small self-sufficient groups/raiding parties. I would expect the Ynnari and Isha factions to become very distinct with death and life powers, respectively.
TLR replace aspects with new Ynnari and Isha aligned primais-like super troops, and give them cool new vehicles to fly around in.
2019/01/22 02:28:03
Subject: Re:If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Scouts 8 ppm Marines 10 ppm 2.0 P Marines 15 ppm Termis 18 ppm GK Pals 20 ppm Bolt Weapons
2 attacks per successful hit!
Termis
W4,A4
GK Paladins
W6,A6
+buffs to others units as needed..
All Terminator vers should have 6 inch move I dislike this reduced movement concept...
However people prob be like the sky is falling if this happened...
2019/01/22 03:10:50
Subject: Re:If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
ThatMG wrote: Scouts 8 ppm Marines 10 ppm 2.0 P Marines 15 ppm Termis 18 ppm GK Pals 20 ppm Bolt Weapons
2 attacks per successful hit!
Termis
W4,A4
GK Paladins
W6,A6
+buffs to others units as needed..
All Terminator vers should have 6 inch move I dislike this reduced movement concept...
However people prob be like the sky is falling if this happened...
So you're advocating for 6pt sisters, 4 point orcs, and 3 point guardsmen. Interesting.
2019/01/29 00:53:05
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Keep their WS/BS/S/T the same. Crank them up to three wounds, and three attacks each. Let them have double combat squads as a tactical squad. AKA, Sargent, Special, Special/heavy, and a marine that can be upgraded like a sargent, but isn't.
Change "And They Shall Know No Fear" to a 4+ save against battleshock results, like the new Missionaries have for sisters. Let them use their bolters in CC as pistols, and each fight phase they count as charging on a 4+ roll (per squad). Change all of their close combat attacks to deal 1d2 damage, and let that apply to chainswords and power weapons. Marine units gain the benefits of a searchlight for night fighting missions.
Crank up the points to make them fair for what they're getting, say 25-30 points.
Other elite armies would have to be adjusted, such as custodies, eldar wraith units, ect.
This way marine players can have an army that feels like the fluff, but should be tough enough to not get completely overwhelmed.
2019/01/29 18:51:39
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Combine primaris and the rest of the line so primaris can actually use more than one or two vehicles and don't stick out like a sore thumb.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2019/01/29 18:53:32
Subject: If you could reboot any Army, how would you do it?
Keep their WS/BS/S/T the same. Crank them up to three wounds, and three attacks each. Let them have double combat squads as a tactical squad. AKA, Sargent, Special, Special/heavy, and a marine that can be upgraded like a sargent, but isn't.
Change "And They Shall Know No Fear" to a 4+ save against battleshock results, like the new Missionaries have for sisters. Let them use their bolters in CC as pistols, and each fight phase they count as charging on a 4+ roll (per squad). Change all of their close combat attacks to deal 1d2 damage, and let that apply to chainswords and power weapons. Marine units gain the benefits of a searchlight for night fighting missions.
Crank up the points to make them fair for what they're getting, say 25-30 points.
Other elite armies would have to be adjusted, such as custodies, eldar wraith units, ect.
This way marine players can have an army that feels like the fluff, but should be tough enough to not get completely overwhelmed.
Pssst. Run your Space Marines as Jorm Tyranid Warriors, and run a Prime for the Sergeant. WS2+ BS3+ S4 T4 W3 A3 sv3+ immune to morale, "bolters" (deathspitters) are Assault 3 24" S5 -1, and every model can have a "chainsword" (boneswords) for +1 attack (total 4) -2 AP. Every third model can have a "special". 27 ppm. See how you like it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/30 01:41:26
I would redo Grey Knights and I don’t think it would be that complicated.
1. Replace anti demon rules with -brotherhood- chapters you choose when making your list. Kinda like space marine chapter abilities. 1 anti demon, one super psychic, etc. Melee brotherhood gets +1 A, etc.
2. More psychic powers to choose from like the marine list.
3. Bring back the shrouding, ie penalty to hit. GKs outside a certain range. Say.... 18 inch.
R replace aspects with new Ynnari and Isha aligned primais-like super troops, and give them cool new vehicles to fly around in.
