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 blood reaper wrote:
I don't really care much for airspace violations when the fate of Europe is at stake. I don't believe anyone was tried at Nuremburg for airspace violations (nor mass bombings, for that matter).

'Harris bombed Switzerland'

Without the intention of doing so, true. I'm glad this wasn't mentioned.

Versailles was nothing compared to what the Germans had inflicted upon France in 1870 - which included stealing gold from the French reserves. The Germans lost territory which was usually largely not German - and ultimately Germany's imperialistic, expansionist ambitions had not been destroyed. Without a proper occupation, Germany could not recognise that it had been truly military defeated.

"Are we now even ignoring the self determination right of nations?"

Germany had ignored the self determination of every nation in Europe and seemed intent to do so again without being properly reigned in.

He did so with intent, as did the USAAF. Thank you very much.The intent was also aired and mentioned as threat torwards swiss officals.


> And here you actully feth up badly "Germany had ignored the self determination of every nation in Europe and seemed intent to do so again without being properly reigned in"

Also again: "because they did so what we did so is perfectly acceptable" is not correct, or justifiable by any legal standard.

If you ever had a look a Ethnic maps you would realise due to the whole Empires thingy that middle to eastern Europe is not Ethnically homogenous. It got alot more homogenisised after WW2 and after the Yugoslav breakup but those incidents also show huge tendencies of violence.
Additionally and as an exemple you can also look at the exchange between Greeks and Turks in the regions after the turkish war for independence.

Germany did so to a much, much greater extent (see a majority of German heavy tanks).

I can largely agree with the points on the French - bar the equipment thing (yes, French tanks were heavily armoured but the turret ergonomics were atrocious).

Firstly on the German division thing, I don't see why this matters. Divisions are not necessarily the same size as one another - Germany still had more man power than France and Britain (I *did not* include the Italians as part of the total man power, in case it appeared that I had). Germany was not outnumbered at France.

Beevor in Stalingrad notes a number of times that without their allies the Germans would've struggled to get anywhere - in fact without the 'Hiwis' (Russian traitors) the Germans would've found their manpower situation even more atrocious than they did later in the war.

I use it to implicate that the war was a little more than 'German ubermensch beat down dumb Soviet subhumans' - a commonly spouted theme in many video games and online forums. I am explaining my position, and answering your challenge - no I would not slog them but I would slog silly positions taken regarding them which reduce history to some sort of propagandistic meme.

Understrength and lacking in equipment, maybe, but the idea the German army was completely spent and unable to do more than garrison duty seems a little far (though it's certainly true of the actual garrison divisions, who usually surrendered as quickly as possible).

I used casualty rates to push against the typical myth of German 'K/D' ratios (don't get me started on how the Germans cheated regarding AFV kills). And I would happily debate the myth of German superiority on the Eastern Front in regard to kills (which is much more equal when the conflict as a whole is taken into view).


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Not Online!!! wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I don't really care much for airspace violations when the fate of Europe is at stake. I don't believe anyone was tried at Nuremburg for airspace violations (nor mass bombings, for that matter).

'Harris bombed Switzerland'

Without the intention of doing so, true. I'm glad this wasn't mentioned.

Versailles was nothing compared to what the Germans had inflicted upon France in 1870 - which included stealing gold from the French reserves. The Germans lost territory which was usually largely not German - and ultimately Germany's imperialistic, expansionist ambitions had not been destroyed. Without a proper occupation, Germany could not recognise that it had been truly military defeated.

"Are we now even ignoring the self determination right of nations?"

Germany had ignored the self determination of every nation in Europe and seemed intent to do so again without being properly reigned in.

He did so with intent, as did the USAAF. Thank you very much.The intent was also aired and mentioned as threat torwards swiss officals.


> And here you actully feth up badly "Germany had ignored the self determination of every nation in Europe and seemed intent to do so again without being properly reigned in"

Also again: "because they did so what we did so is perfectly acceptable" is not correct, or justifiable by any legal standard.

If you ever had a look a Ethnic maps you would realise due to the whole Empires thingy that middle to eastern Europe is not Ethnically homogenous. It got alot more homogenisised after WW2 and after the Yugoslav breakup but those incidents also show huge tendencies of violence.
Additionally and as an exemple you can also look at the exchange between Greeks and Turks in the regions after the turkish war for independence.

Well there had to be some punishment. Germany is still in existence, which is much more than one can say for what Germany had planned for Poland, or the Low Countries, or the former Soviet Union.

Had the Germans not been removed from Eastern Europe by the Allied powers the local populations would've done it themselves. They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

Well there had to be some punishment. Germany is still in existence, which is much more than one can say for what Germany had planned for Poland, or the Low Countries, or the former Soviet Union.

Had the Germans not been removed from Eastern Europe by the Allied powers the local populations would've done it themselves. They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

I agree with that sentiment, does however not justify equal questionable behaviour letting go unpunished.



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They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

i'd like to know of such incidents.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Well there had to be some punishment. Germany is still in existence, which is much more than one can say for what Germany had planned for Poland, or the Low Countries, or the former Soviet Union.

Had the Germans not been removed from Eastern Europe by the Allied powers the local populations would've done it themselves. They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

I agree with that sentiment, does however not justify equal questionable behaviour letting go unpunished.



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They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

i'd like to know of such incidents.

Sudeten Germans waged a 'partisan war' against the Czechoslovak population and regularly executed police officers and civilians. When the occupation came they gleefully became part of the occupying government and continued to cause problems for the Czech population (some of these claims come directly from the Diaries of Goebbels). At the end of the war, the Czech population would've likely exterminated them given the chance - and I must say understandably so considering the utter horrors the Germans inflicted upon them.

In Poland German militias formed in 'Danzig' where they executed and tortured to death Polish POWs. Volksdeutsche across Poland regularly engaged in ethic cleansing of their former neighbours and were recruited into Waffen SS divisions. Similar events occurred in Yugoslavia, where the German backed local militias engaged in similar behaviour.

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Well there had to be some punishment. Germany is still in existence, which is much more than one can say for what Germany had planned for Poland, or the Low Countries, or the former Soviet Union.

Had the Germans not been removed from Eastern Europe by the Allied powers the local populations would've done it themselves. They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

I agree with that sentiment, does however not justify equal questionable behaviour letting go unpunished.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

They had acted as 5th columnists, and as such faced a fairly understandable fate.

i'd like to know of such incidents.

Sudeten Germans waged a 'partisan war' against the Czechoslovak population and regularly executed police officers and civilians. When the occupation came they gleefully became part of the occupying government and continued to cause problems for the Czech population (some of these claims come directly from the Diaries of Goebbels). At the end of the war, the Czech population would've likely exterminated them given the chance - and I must say understandably so considering the utter horrors the Germans inflicted upon them.

In Poland German militias formed in 'Danzig' where they executed and tortured to death Polish POWs. Volksdeutsche across Poland regularly engaged in ethic cleansing of their former neighbours and were recruited into Waffen SS divisions. Similar events occurred in Yugoslavia, where the German backed local militias engaged in similar behaviour.

And here you go into questioning again the Selfdetermination right:
After 1918/1919 Sudetengermans wanted no part in the Czech state but got annexed anyways. Secondly there were later 2 branches of policy mainly followed by the sudeten germans 1 was called "activism" and wanted to actively work with Czechoslovakia and the other called "Negativism" wanted non of it.
Guess to which the NDSAP counted and who organised "Freikorps" to destroy stuff.

Secondly the Czechs had themselves to blame for the lack of support of the sudeten germans, if you look f.e. their decision system or the violent supression of demonstrations etc.

Additionally the Czechs ominated the first republic quite heavily, leading to issues with their cousins the slovaks themselves.

The Czech's certainly made mistakes - but regardless of what they would have done, they would've found themselves facing literal 5th columnists.

The Czechs violent suppression was to make sure there wasn't a literal uprising of Nazi armed Sudeten Germans, who actively sought to dismantle Czechoslovakia.

They sowed the wind by supporting the Nazis, and in the end that is why they were kicked out. Had they not been kicked out they'd of almost certainly been hacked to death by the Czech populace.

 blood reaper wrote:
The Czech's certainly made mistakes - but regardless of what they would have done, they would've found themselves facing literal 5th columnists.

The Czechs violent suppression was to make sure there wasn't a literal uprising of Nazi armed Sudeten Germans, who actively sought to dismantle Czechoslovakia.

They sowed the wind by supporting the Nazis, and in the end that is why they were kicked out. Had they not been kicked out they'd of almost certainly been hacked to death by the Czech populace.

Violent supression of nazis in 1918/1919? Excuse me?

Annexation of a part of a other states ethnicity? Direct vioaltion and afterwards got it signed as "correct" by France mostly in order to further dominate continental europe? Consequently preparing the balkan mess and the Conflicts that followed?


Beyond the SDF (NSDAP sockpuppet) most German parties invovled did not want anything to do beyond economical equality with the Czechs and autonmy, which the Czechs denied them and the slovaks/ hungarian / ukrainians, ergo why you see quite alot of collaboration against the Czechoslovak state.

So you have no idea about Czechoslovakia it seems nor about the political struggles there.

 blood reaper wrote:
Germany did so to a much, much greater extent (see a majority of German heavy tanks).

The thing is, most of Germany's prototypes and retrofits were actually highly successful. The StuG III for example was a brilliant way to retrofit the Panzer III with the L48, and the same goes for the Hetzer 38T. They were cheap, reliable, efficient designs. Those innovations allowed the Panzer III and the Czech tanks to continue service well past the point they would have been obsolete. The heavy tanks were a bit of a mixed bag. The Panzer IV served throughout the entire war and the Tiger was a real menace, but yes the Tiger II, Ferdinand, Elefant, and Maus were very inefficient designs - though, to be fair, those latter vehicles were never intended as mainstays of the Panzerwaffe. They were specialist vehicles, not unlike Hobart's Funnies.

I can largely agree with the points on the French - bar the equipment thing (yes, French tanks were heavily armoured but the turret ergonomics were atrocious).

They certainly weren't perfect machines, but they were superior to anything in the Panzerwaffe in terms of armor and armament. The 88 was the only thing the Germans had that could actually punch through the heavy French tanks.

Beevor in Stalingrad notes a number of times that without their allies the Germans would've struggled to get anywhere - in fact without the 'Hiwis' (Russian traitors) the Germans would've found their manpower situation even more atrocious than they did later in the war.

Did we read the same book? Beevor details how Germany's allies folded quickly when the Soviets launched Operation Uranus. Their failure to hold the Soviets, understandable though it was given their lack of heavy equipment, is what allowed the Russians to encircle the Sixth Army at Stalingrad.

I use it to implicate that the war was a little more than 'German ubermensch beat down dumb Soviet subhumans' - a commonly spouted theme in many video games and online forums. I am explaining my position, and answering your challenge - no I would not slog them but I would slog silly positions taken regarding them which reduce history to some sort of propagandistic meme.

Definitely agree here, though I don't think anyone in this thread was advocating 'German ubermensch beating down Soviet subhumans.' You came down hard on the 'German Army really wasn't that amazing' and that's what I took issue with. They threw out the rulebook and rolled out a whole new way of prosecuting a war. Yes, there was some luck involved, and yes a lot of their success is due in part to the mistakes of their adversaries, but this, IMO, does not in any way diminish their accomplishment. They brought a whole continent to its knees and it took 3 super powers almost 4 years to bring them down. They were in service to a loathsome man and did not have a chance to beat the odds stacked up against them, but as I said before I believe in giving credit where it is due and they were a fearsome fighting force.

Understrength and lacking in equipment, maybe, but the idea the German army was completely spent and unable to do more than garrison duty seems a little far (though it's certainly true of the actual garrison divisions, who usually surrendered as quickly as possible).

I wasn't referring to the whole German army, just the divisions stationed in France. They were second rate at best, shuffled off away from the 'real' fighting in the East. A scant few SS divisions transferred there were the only units of good fighting quality the Germans had in France.

I used casualty rates to push against the typical myth of German 'K/D' ratios (don't get me started on how the Germans cheated regarding AFV kills). And I would happily debate the myth of German superiority on the Eastern Front in regard to kills (which is much more equal when the conflict as a whole is taken into view).

The claimed kills for tank crews on both sides were pretty messed up, but it's no myth that the Germans absolutely wrecked the Red Army. The Germans attacked at the best possible time, immediately after Stalin's purges of the officer corps but before they finished adopting a new doctrinal method to fight. The results were predictably disastrous, and were exacerbated by Stalin's refusal to listen to his commanders and counter-attacking with everything as soon as possible. The Russians were just as unprepared for blitzkrieg as the French were, but geography and the inexhaustible reserves of manpower the Russians had won the day.

I'm surprised that the Mughal Empire was suggested, although it was a successful empire it suffered quite a few military defeats.

Although it was founded by the grandson of Tamerlane, I don't think you can claim continuity to the the militarily supreme Timirid nation centred on Samarkand.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The Czech's certainly made mistakes - but regardless of what they would have done, they would've found themselves facing literal 5th columnists.

The Czechs violent suppression was to make sure there wasn't a literal uprising of Nazi armed Sudeten Germans, who actively sought to dismantle Czechoslovakia.

They sowed the wind by supporting the Nazis, and in the end that is why they were kicked out. Had they not been kicked out they'd of almost certainly been hacked to death by the Czech populace.

Violent supression of nazis in 1918/1919? Excuse me?

Annexation of a part of a other states ethnicity? Direct vioaltion and afterwards got it signed as "correct" by France mostly in order to further dominate continental europe? Consequently preparing the balkan mess and the Conflicts that followed?


Beyond the SDF (NSDAP sockpuppet) most German parties invovled did not want anything to do beyond economical equality with the Czechs and autonmy, which the Czechs denied them and the slovaks/ hungarian / ukrainians, ergo why you see quite alot of collaboration against the Czechoslovak state.

So you have no idea about Czechoslovakia it seems nor about the political struggles there.

I was speaking of the suppression in 1938.

Had the French really wanted to properly dominiate continental Europe they'd of done the smart thing and liquidated Germany, like Foch had advised. Probably the best solution to the German question, in my mind.

I cannot deny that the Czech's made mistakes but ultimately the Sudatens sealed their fate with the widespread support for the NSDAP. Had they not been removed the Czech's would've exterminated them - and to be fair - I can understand why. By 1938 were fifth columnists and helped dismantle Czechoslovakia.

I suggested the Mughals because they kept on going through everyone they went up against until the British stepped onto the scene. For all intents and purposes, form Akbar's conquests up until Aurangzeb's latter years they were the big kid on the block in India.

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The Czech's certainly made mistakes - but regardless of what they would have done, they would've found themselves facing literal 5th columnists.

The Czechs violent suppression was to make sure there wasn't a literal uprising of Nazi armed Sudeten Germans, who actively sought to dismantle Czechoslovakia.

They sowed the wind by supporting the Nazis, and in the end that is why they were kicked out. Had they not been kicked out they'd of almost certainly been hacked to death by the Czech populace.

Violent supression of nazis in 1918/1919? Excuse me?

Annexation of a part of a other states ethnicity? Direct vioaltion and afterwards got it signed as "correct" by France mostly in order to further dominate continental europe? Consequently preparing the balkan mess and the Conflicts that followed?


Beyond the SDF (NSDAP sockpuppet) most German parties invovled did not want anything to do beyond economical equality with the Czechs and autonmy, which the Czechs denied them and the slovaks/ hungarian / ukrainians, ergo why you see quite alot of collaboration against the Czechoslovak state.

So you have no idea about Czechoslovakia it seems nor about the political struggles there.

I was speaking of the suppression in 1938.

Had the French really wanted to properly dominiate continental Europe they'd of done the smart thing and liquidated Germany, like Foch had advised. Probably the best solution to the German question, in my mind.

I cannot deny that the Czech's made mistakes but ultimately the Sudatens sealed their fate with the widespread support for the NSDAP. Had they not been removed the Czech's would've exterminated them - and to be fair - I can understand why. By 1938 were fifth columnists and helped dismantle Czechoslovakia.

Oh now you show your true colours, Germanophobia, no understanding of the key region, nor any position that is holdable in any way or form yet still claiming a morale highhorse whilest in ernest suggesting this at the same time:"Had the French really wanted to properly dominiate continental Europe they'd of done the smart thing and liquidated Germany, like Foch had advised. Probably the best solution to the German question, in my mind."
Do yourself a favour and read up propperly on the history of said region. Or International law and agreements for that matter.

"I cannot deny that the Czech's made mistakes but ultimately the Sudatens sealed their fate with the widespread support for the NSDAP. Had they not been removed the Czech's would've exterminated them - and to be fair - I can understand why. By 1938 were fifth columnists and helped dismantle Czechoslovakia. " The only one dismantling Chekoslovakia was the UK and France.
After they failed to maintain the artifical state.

Let's step away from the German thing a bit so the thread doesn't get closed shall we?

Interesting tidbit. The Mayans fought the Spanish for 170 years.

Also Greenland is a superpower. Never lost a war!

 Frazzled wrote:
Let's step away from the German thing a bit so the thread doesn't get closed shall we?

Interesting tidbit. The Mayans fought the Spanish for 170 years.

Also Greenland is a superpower. Never lost a war!

This reminds me of my days in college. My college (a large state funded university) didn't possess a football team. Why? Because one of the board of directors had a nephew who was killed in a freak football accident in high school or something. So...whatever. However, one of the local off-campus bookstores sold t-shirts which advertised our college's football team as "Undefeated, Never Scored on!" etc.

 blood reaper wrote:
It is acceptable. As Harris said, he would've done it again.

Bomber 'Great British Bake Off' Harris did nothing wrong. The Germans had, as he said, bombed in a dozen places and thus brought the reprise upon themselves.

Harris believed he would be executed if the Germans conquered the mainland UK.

 blood reaper wrote:

Even then, Dresden was a vital military hub. Germany might've been losing, but she was not yet defeated. There could not be another 1918, where Germany escaped its punishment.

"However Harris stood his ground saying: 'The bombers kept over a million fit Germans out of the German army… Manning the anti-aircraft defences; making the ammunition, and doing urgent repairs, especially tradesmen.'"

It also allowed the UK to effectively strike against the Third Reich before they were able to launch a land offensive, outside of the desert.

 blood reaper wrote:

Dresden has now become nothing more than a calling card for Nazi apologists, pushed forward by types like David Irving claiming the innocence of Germany. Might I say, Germany is lucky to have remained in existence after the 1st, let alone 2nd World War.

After the second maybe, but the Germans did nothing especially wrong during the first.


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 Frazzled wrote:
Let's step away from the German thing a bit so the thread doesn't get closed shall we?

WW2 is before the cut off between history and politics.

 Frazzled wrote:

Also Greenland is a superpower. Never lost a war!

So is Canada.