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BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
Terminators still only have 4 shots.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
Terminators still only have 4 shots.
Then I guess it's a good thing I forgot to bring that one up when I was complaining about mis-pointed models in the feedback survey.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Jes Goodwin should be fired? I don't think I heard a worse take.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
yet for every person who dislikes them, someone might like them I dislike them is a pretty poor reason to advocate someone's firing. I'm not a fan of the Tau Aestetic, I just don't buy Tau
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Disagreed. Centurions are my favorite model in the entire Space Marine line. Aggressors are up there. GW should make more models based on those chassis.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
I was actually referring to their lack of teleport being the main hindrance to their mobility. I'm not actually sure how they stack up while footslogging.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
I like them. In fact, I think I may even prefer them to Terminators, because their shoulder and head positions seem a lot more anatomically viable. My only real issue is with the weapon placement on their gauntlets. It bugs me that they are on the bottom of the hand, because I can't help but envision that when they strike down in combat, it will actually be the gun that hits rather than the gauntlet.
I think that with the Primaris update they should clarify the role of the Terminators. Make sure that they function well as super tough monster killers. I really want them to finally to be formidable again (last time this happened was in the second edition...) They should be the guys who deal with the biggest, scariest alien monsters, giant robots etc. Leave the chaff clearing to other units.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/19 19:19:07
Crimson wrote: I think that with the Primaris update they should clarify the role of the Terminators. Make sure that they function well as super tough monster killers. I really want them to finally to be formidable again (last time this happened was in the second edition...) The should be the guys who deal with the biggest, scariest alien monsters, giant robots etc. Leave the chaff clearing to other units.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
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The other side of this is embodied in the Attack Bike vs Inceptor calculation. Very, very similar profiles, Fly vs an extra 2" movement, 4 wounds vs Deep Strike for safety, 6 Assault Bolter shots vs 4 Bolt Gun shots and 3 Heavy Bolter shots with longer range at the expense of move-and-fire penalties. The Inceptor is 8 more points, 10 if comparing the Plasma / Multimelta options.
The Inceptor is probably more than 8 points better than an Attack Bike thanks to Deep Strike, but the bike squad starts at 37 points for one instead of 125 points for three and also has the advantage of flexibility (you can upgrade just one bike to the Multimelta instead of having to upgrade the whole squad).
It would be really easy for one of those options to just invalidate the other. We see that all the time, things like the Bolt Rifle/Stalker/Autobolter 'options' where one of them is always the right choice. If GW does release a Primaris Terminator the odds favor them being either flat better or flat worse than traditional Termies by enough for one or the other to be worthless afterward.
I don't think that necessarily matters though. If the new ones are good rules wise but look terrible, then just proxy in the original models. If the models are good (for me that would mean like current terminator but better proportions) and rules terrible, then just use the current terminator rules but have models that would first better with the newer better proportioned aesthetic.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Flinty wrote: I don't think that necessarily matters though. If the new ones are good rules wise but look terrible, then just proxy in the original models. If the models are good (for me that would mean like current terminator but better proportions) and rules terrible, then just use the current terminator rules but have models that would first better with the newer better proportioned aesthetic.
And I think releasing a unit that completely invalidates another unit* is bad business. We might just have to disagree on that point.
* - Or that is completely invalidated by an existing unit for that matter.
I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong placre for warriors)
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QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong placre for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Martel732 wrote: Grimdark is very 90s. It's run its course. It's a parody of itself at this point.
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
Martel732 wrote: Grimdark is very 90s. It's run its course. It's a parody of itself at this point.
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
And if they move away from grimderp to grimdark, people will complain that its becoming noblebright. There is no pleasing some people. Personally I think the setting had got too grimderp. There needs to be some good to contrast the bad.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
how much would they cost though. They are superior in every way to paladins and custodes, specialy with 4+1 attacks, and the anti ap rule. so 70-80pts per one?
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
Stuff becomes tragic only if it doesn't make any sense at all. Hope in the w40k setting makes no sense to begin with. What it is the hope for, to get harvested by tyranids, instead of chaos or necron, or sacrificed by eldar for their own goals, sometimes litteraly get sacrificed by them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 12:20:43
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
so... primaris terminators should be custodes?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/24 12:23:32
Am not sure they should have termintors to begin with. But as an example a GK paladin costs 53pts for a dude with a pair of falchions. He has 3A+1A, and a SB. and the baby smite on the unit.
If the primaris were to run around with the rules proposed here, specialy a mix of storm shields and plasma/melta weapons, they would be really good in a pointless game. ++3, -1 to rend for small weapon fire. they would have deep strike and access to all the chapter tactics, and re-rolls a normal marine army can get. No idea how much they should cost, but +1, better save and plasma/melta as basic weapon on top of a TH/SS would sure make them cost more then 53pts.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already "uh RG wakes up and meets a long lost Mary Sue Friend(s) who heal him, give him better marines than the Emperor had, and Custodes for everyone, and he's the Imperial Regent now, and they have hover vehicles... and..." ugh stop. Downsides are great for balance (in both a narrative sense and a table top sense). Again, I like the Primaris Marines. I have a company+ painted up for my Ultramarines. But there's only so much old lore that needs to be invalidated and so much melbatoast "MOAR MAREENS" that I like seeing out there diluted by Marines++. Right now they are an unlimited resource. Keeping a few battlefield roles away from them and few capabilities untapped is just good game design and I hope restraint is used with the Primaris line. Terminators and 2+ armor would be a great place to see the "old marines" hold the line
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QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already
But that's how technology works at times. Consider HMS Dreadnought. When she was launched in 1906 she instantly rendered all existing battleships in the world obsolete, hence why naval historians talk about "pre-Dreadnoughts" and why we have the word "dreadnought" taking on the same connotations as the Biblical Juggernaut, something large, powerful and nearly impossible to stop.
Is the real-life HMS Dreadnought a Mary Sue just because it succeeded really well in doing what it set out to do?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already
But that's how technology works at times. Consider HMS Dreadnought. When she was launched in 1906 she instantly rendered all existing battleships in the world obsolete, hence why naval historians talk about "pre-Dreadnoughts" and why we have the word "dreadnought" taking on the same connotations as the Biblical Juggernaut, something large, powerful and nearly impossible to stop.
Is the real-life HMS Dreadnought a Mary Sue just because it succeeded really well in doing what it set out to do?
Real life doesn't always make interesting fiction or gameplay. 40k is a setting first and foremost (GW forgets this constantly) with the core themes of the setting being this medieval inspired "dark age" of sorts set in the far future where everything is regressing, people have backwards views on science, and innovation is answered with cries of heresy. The IoM is a shadow of it's former self in a constant state of danger, decay, and desperate struggle to maintain what it can (like the failing Roman Empire). To top it off we also have these Tolkeen type races (plus a few others) IN SPAAACCCEEE with their own grimdark twist on the fantasy tropes.
Cue The Gathering Storm. This collection of books set out to completely gak all over the setting and everything it's about. The return of Rowboat and the "I was working on this gak for thousands of years" creations of Cawl. The return of the boat is in part due to the interference of the Eldar's "definitely not a chaos god" god of the dead (a god who feeds off death, including yours, is somehow suppose to save your race from being devoured by slaanesh? Sounds like borrowing from Peter to pay Paul). Outside the Eldar hosing themselves, the entire turn of events would make even the most radical of Inquisitors think that things are getting a bit too heretical. The bad part is that in the lore, nobody is crying heresy, everyone is ok with this turn of events, and we aren't seeing major internal conflicts erupt over this radical departure from the norms of the IoM.
Rambling rant aside the new fluff and direction of the narrative is flying in the face of the established lore while it damages the tone and theme of the setting. This isn't a setting that fits the narrative of making super soldiers +1 to replace our super soldiers +0. 40k is about how that really powerful weapon stopped working 2,000 years ago because we lost means to repair it 3,000 years ago and we lost the only forgeworld that had the schematics to make the thing 8,000 years ago. It's not that the Primaris are Mary Sue's so much as they strongly contrast the background setting the exist in. New tech, new and improved marines, new weapons, new armor, new new new in a setting where the only thing new is the ways a dark eldar will torture you, an evolution of a Tyranid, or a piece of Tau tech (new to the Tau, probably discovered and forgotten by the other races long ago). It's this contrast that makes the Primaris feel so out of place to some of us and feels like the setting is losing what made it so interesting. Feels like changes made to sell plastic models and it comes at the cost that corrodes 40k's rich and interesting setting.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
But the Dark Age was more political. Technology really didn't go backwards. The stirrup was invented just before the Battle of Tours, for example.
40K using demons and an all-knowing inquisition to halt technological progress on thousands of planets is one of the most suspension of disbelief busting things.
Progress can't be halted. Not by the Emperor. Not by the Warp. Not by Chaos. Not by the Admech. The power of science is that its repeatable and consistent.
Martel732 wrote: But the Dark Age was more political. Technology really didn't go backwards. The stirrup was invented just before the Battle of Tours, for example.
40K using demons and an all-knowing inquisition to halt technological progress on thousands of planets is one of the most suspension of disbelief busting things.
Progress can't be halted. Not by the Emperor. Not by the Warp. Not by Chaos. Not by the Admech. The power of science is that its repeatable and consistent.
As a history professor, I'll leave the anachronistic Chinese stirrup countering the backward slide of agriculture, health care, literacy, personal freedoms, record keeping, travel, cross culture trade, organized communities, education, civil defense, etc. alone. A late 2nd century Roman would be horrified at 10th century Europe, and its supposed to be the calm of the storm of the "Dark Ages"
There are innumerable moments of both intentional and incidental cultural and technological decline in human history. But again... that's not the point. The point is that the Primaris marines working flawlessly and as a superior platform means that Crawl and RG have outdone the Emperor and the Unification geneticists, and all of the Age of Progress and at some level the Old Ones and many alien technocrats from their garage lab (equivalent). Step forward and the end of the downward slide... sure... using your Martel (lol your name too, I see your connection Tours) example, rocket jumping from Franks to Columbus from 2 guys is just silly and too lore disruptive... attempting to do it and it backfires... now that's 40k
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 16:46:28
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 
7000 
+