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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Best reason for BS 4+ though is it makes pointing them a lot easier... In general the more brittle a model with high firepower is the harder they are to balance. Reduce the firepower and make them easier to consistently point.
Sisters did go through a stretch at BS 4+ (or rather BS3) - from the start of 3rd edition until the release of the WH codex.

They were a full third cheaper than regular marines, twice the points of a guardsman, and pretty much useless as an army.
   
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They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.

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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Indeed, I don't see anything in their training which would be better than one of the best regiments of guard raised from a tithe world. Just far better equipment and more praying.
Not paying attention will do that to you.

Sisters get far, FAR superior training than the average Guardsman does. The comparison between them and the Scions is a lot more accurate, but in many ways they are superior to scions, as well-- both do ceaseless, non-stop training, but Sisters are trained by and in what is basically an ancient warrior cult who are capable of using faith to violate the laws of physics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 17:29:13


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 Insectum7 wrote:
They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.


Or, y'know, they are trained to the same standard as Scions? I don't see why this is even a discussion? Humans are trained all the time to BS 3+ and no one questions it when they are men (Scions) but when female, suddenly this is an issue?
   
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 Melissia wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Indeed, I don't see anything in their training which would be better than one of the best regiments of guard raised from a tithe world. Just far better equipment and more praying.
Not paying attention will do that to you.

Sisters get far, FAR superior training than the average Guardsman does. The comparison between them and the Scions is a lot more accurate, but in many ways they are superior to scions, as well-- both do ceaseless, non-stop training, but Sisters are trained by and in what is basically an ancient warrior cult who are capable of using faith to violate the laws of physics.

And that gives them the Acts of Faith abilities. How does that make them better melee combatants? The only differences we have in Scions and sisters is leadership, war gear, and Acts/Shield of Faith against Aerial Drop and the ability to take orders.

Funnily enough, Tempestors have WS and BS 3+ compared to Sister Superiors.
I don’t know how Sisters get promoted, but I know Scions are promoted on battlefield accomplishments alone.

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Pleasestop wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.


Or, y'know, they are trained to the same standard as Scions? I don't see why this is even a discussion? Humans are trained all the time to BS 3+ and no one questions it when they are men (Scions) but when female, suddenly this is an issue?


Only if you want to make it a gender issue. Because despite there not being any obvious female Scion heads in the model kit, there are in fact, female Scions just like there are female Astra Militarum. So if you could, please leave the gender politics out and focus on this being a faction issue instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 18:10:01


   
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Pleasestop wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.


Or, y'know, they are trained to the same standard as Scions? I don't see why this is even a discussion? Humans are trained all the time to BS 3+ and no one questions it when they are men (Scions) but when female, suddenly this is an issue?

Sure, or that. I thought someone brought up Guardsmen, so I threw the "it doesn't have to be training, it's because 40K" path out there.

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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.


Or, y'know, they are trained to the same standard as Scions? I don't see why this is even a discussion? Humans are trained all the time to BS 3+ and no one questions it when they are men (Scions) but when female, suddenly this is an issue?


Only if you want to make it a gender issue. Because despite there not being any obvious female Scion heads in the model kit, there are in fact, female Scions just like there are female Astra Militarum. So if you could, please leave the gender politics out and focus on this being a faction issue instead.


Scions and Sororitas are both highly trained elite soliders - although with different focuses - the Scions are more like conventional special forces, the Sisters must also police the Church as well as being shock troops and elite bodyguards.

The Sororitas do have superior equipment with Bolters/power armour - which includes advanced targeting systems (even if Sisters like Marines tend to take their helmit off.....). They do also seem to have a somewhat better connection to whatever the Emperor is....

I am happy with the BS3+, WS4+ for game purposes for basic Sisters.


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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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 Apple Peel wrote:
How does that make them better melee combatants?
The common battle sister I would say have yet to achieve it, but that's never what I was talking about in this thread. The Sororitas elites like celestians seraphim, and superiors, however? They have unlocked the secrets of the San Leor warrior cult and are fully capable fighters.

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I think Sisters should have WS 3+. because assaulting enemies and chopping them with chainswords feels like it thematically should be a viable playstyle for them. Same is not really true for the Scions, so they don't need that.

For relatively point expensive models they need to pack some punch for to be even remotely effective in the melee.

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 Melissia wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
How does that make them better melee combatants?
The common battle sister I would say have yet to achieve it, but that's never what I was talking about in this thread. The Sororitas elites like celestians seraphim, and superiors, however? They have unlocked the secrets of the San Leor warrior cult and are fully capable fighters.


Celestians and Seraphims already have WS 3+

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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 Mr Morden wrote:
Celestians and Seraphims already have WS 3+
And some people in this thread have been arguing they shouldn't have it...

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Across the Rubicon

Spoiler:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Pleasestop wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
They get BS 3+ because they are righteous and unflinching in their faith, and have better armor. Guardsmen know their armor is poor, and spend precious potential focus on protecting themselves. Battle Sisters are fanatical devotees to His Glory, and do not fear being shot, thus are better marks(wo)men.

Could be the same training, but a different mind set. Each shot can amount to a tiny act of faith.


Or, y'know, they are trained to the same standard as Scions? I don't see why this is even a discussion? Humans are trained all the time to BS 3+ and no one questions it when they are men (Scions) but when female, suddenly this is an issue?


Only if you want to make it a gender issue. Because despite there not being any obvious female Scion heads in the model kit, there are in fact, female Scions just like there are female Astra Militarum. So if you could, please leave the gender politics out and focus on this being a faction issue instead.


Scions and Sororitas are both highly trained elite soliders - although with different focuses - the Scions are more like conventional special forces, the Sisters must also police the Church as well as being shock troops and elite bodyguards.

The Sororitas do have superior equipment with Bolters/power armour - which includes advanced targeting systems (even if Sisters like Marines tend to take their helmit off.....). They do also seem to have a somewhat better connection to whatever the Emperor is....

I am happy with the BS3+, WS4+ for game purposes for basic Sisters.



I am not arguing the that Sisters of Battle should or shouldn't have these buffs with my post. Only that Pleasestop was trying to frame it as if Scions are manly men that could can brawl where Sisters of Battle are frail women that can't. Which isn't true because Scions aren't like Space Marines, they have females within there ranks. I don't want to see this thread get bogged down in that sort of thing because I don't think gender is relevant so much as it is a faction thing.

Honestly, I lean toward Sisters of Battle not having a WS 3+ based on their past. However, I am not strongly tied to it all and mechanically it makes the faction weird to use as they have all these short range weapons but not great melee. So they want to get really close to the enemy but want to stay out of CQC. Which has to be be a struggle on the tabletop. So if they had WS 3+ and probably a 1 ppm increase, I don't see much on an issue with it either. They are still a little different that Scions or Scouts at that point even ignoring weapon load out choices.

I think the import thing is if Sisters of Battle players want to pay that extra point per model. Because I don't see them getting WS 3+ and keeping their current point cost. What is the current ppm for a basic troop? Nine points? WS 3+ doesn't seem like a great addition if it means a 10 ppm cost to me. We can argue that the price wouldn't go up since Codex prices usually come down, but at the same, GW does value things sort of odd. So are proponents accepting the base cost might go up as well?

   
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Honestly, I lean toward Sisters of Battle not having a WS 3+ based on their past. However, I am not strongly tied to it all and mechanically it makes the faction weird to use as they have all these short range weapons but not great melee. So they want to get really close to the enemy but want to stay out of CQC. Which has to be be a struggle on the tabletop. So if they had WS 3+ and probably a 1 ppm increase, I don't see much on an issue with it either. They are still a little different that Scions or Scouts at that point even ignoring weapon load out choices.

Scions solve this problem by having good weapons in short range and being less points, so it’s not as bad to lose them. Sisters would be better with better weapons, I reckon.

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I'd be happy if they gave sisters back the option to take bayonets for their bolsters.

though honestly what im really hoping is a serephim varient armed with a melee weapon (chainsword, powersword, power spear, whatever)

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Sisters are a shotgun army and should be a shotgun army. The problem at the moment is that they're best run as a poxwalker horde so their identity gets reduced down to a generic 'hard to kill infantry horde'.

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Wtf is a "shotgun army"?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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USA

My guess is he means short range, high risk, high reward.

Sisters have one of those things, I suppose. Two really, come to think about it. They need to work on the "reward" part, because flamers are kinda overcosted.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/11 03:22:55


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
My guess is he means short range, high risk, high reward.

Sisters have one of those things, I suppose. Two really, come to think about it. They need to work on the "reward" part, because flamers are kinda overcosted.



Well why don't they create a new 'Soroitas Flamer' weapon for sisters? I know flamers across the board need readjustment but the flamer itself is so damn iconic to Sisters that I'd love to see them have their own unique version to design around instead of blanket changes to flamers (Emperor knows they need it though)

Maybe a rule to allow them to treat flamer weapons as pistol when engaged in combat? Or a slight range increase? Or both
   
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eh.. honestly I am grabbing a sisters of battle batallion to go along with my custodes/knight (armiger) list. I am waiting for actual squads of the new models to be available but I am not sure if they or really any unaugmented human should be ws3. IE scions (who do not all have ws3, only the tempestor does) shoudl not. Honestly I miss the old charts though in this instance where weapon skill was compared and the resulting roll was generated from there.

put another way

should a sister hit a chaos space marine on a 3? in my opinion no.

should they hit an avatar, a literal god of war, on a 3+ nope

a harlequin troupe master? certainly no

should they hit Lucius (probably one of the best swordsman in the galaxy at this point) on a 3... again no.

should they be hitting cultists and traitor guard on 3's? absolutely.

should they be hitting tanks and most vehicles on a 3? yes

should they hit grots on a 3? well yes, but honestly it should probably be a 2.

I just think the current 2-6 system is too limiting to represent different levels of close combat skill.

That aside I think given the 8th edition ruleset most sisters units in the elite slot should probably by WS3+ (though not the basline troops or heavy support units)


on the flamer though look to the orks for the worst flamers... ours have D3 instead of D6 hits while costing the same as imperial flamers, because... reasons?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 12:07:42


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Just from reading this thread I'd say make most sisters BS 3,WS 4. Then dedicated melee units BS 4,WS 3 since they are "devoted" to a melee weapon. Then maybe for extra crazyness make their vets BS 3,WS 3
   
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Most sisters are WS4+

The only ones that aren't are characters, Celestians, and Seraphim
   
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This is more a complaint about the system. In previous systems, both units having WS4 (the equivalent of a marine's modern 3+) would mean they both hit each other on a 4+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Just from reading this thread I'd say make most sisters BS 3,WS 4. Then dedicated melee units BS 4,WS 3 since they are "devoted" to a melee weapon. Then maybe for extra crazyness make their vets BS 3,WS 3
Sisters only have one dedicated melee unit, Repentia, who don't have a ranged attack to begin with. Instead they have nerfed eviscerators that are inferior in every way to other factions' eviscerators.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/11 13:44:54


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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 Melissia wrote:
This is more a complaint about the system. In previous systems, both units having WS4 (the equivalent of a marine's modern 3+) would mean they both hit each other on a 4+.



they never really used the old system like they should have imo, very few units has over a 5. while an Avatar had a 10 very few units had a 6-9. You could give Custodes/space marine captains a 6, normal marines a 5, sisters/scions and other elite humans a 4 (probably eldar guardians here too), then guardsman and such have a 3, while grots stay a 2.

That said as I stated at the end there this is not the old ways, and in 8th I do think with this imperfect limited system the elite sister should probably have a WS3+ as should the seraphim (as i believe they mostly if not all are) but just like the scions who (other than the scion leader) are WS4+, if you want the sister superior to have WS3+ like the scions.. sure I see no problem there, more experience/ hs stood out from the rank and file sisters etc.. just not the whole squad, at least not at 9 points per model.

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 Melissia wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just from reading this thread I'd say make most sisters BS 3,WS 4. Then dedicated melee units BS 4,WS 3 since they are "devoted" to a melee weapon. Then maybe for extra crazyness make their vets BS 3,WS 3
Sisters only have one dedicated melee unit, Repentia, who don't have a ranged attack to begin with. Instead they have nerfed eviscerators that are inferior in every way to other factions' eviscerators.


Yeah, that was two kicks in the teeth. First marines get what was an exclusive weapon, and then next edition GW nurfs the original versions with no reason given.
   
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I have nothing against Sisters having proper Eviscerators, but they should be modelled differently. The current Repentia Eviscerators are just marine chainswords held with two hands. It is weird that they're even as powerful as they're now.

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They used to be modeled as chain-greatswords and encouraged to be painted as power weapons.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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