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In before EA just re-brands Lootboxes into Live Service Consumer Choice Options, and we have to do this all over again.

Does you member when you could buy full physical game, and not broken into 6 full price dlc? MEMBER?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In before EA just re-brands Lootboxes into Live Service Consumer Choice Options, and we have to do this all over again.

Does you member when you could buy full physical game, and not broken into 6 full price dlc? MEMBER?

Your kidding once they realised how much untaxed gambling profits were being made there’s going to be no stopping them going after these guys whatever they call them, I know it’s more or less impossible but I wish they could go after them for undisclosed gambling profits EA and Epic would be funding the NHS for decades.

I think the general government angle was also that EA in particular, but others too, tried to pull the wool over their eyes (its just video games) too much and it clearly struck a nerve. Esp since its not the 70 or 80s - games are not some kind of tiny niche over in a corner and arcades; they are mainstream. Heck some of those on the panel likely "game" in their free time

I'm literally surprised Fanduels hasn't gotten in on the E-sports stuff, and started doing pick-em betting for things like DotA leagues, or whatnot. I mean, it's getting to the point now where people are making millions off of literal in everything BUT name gambling, why not just make it out and out, and allow gambling on E-Sports?

Because once you get into actual gambling and can't hide it a whole rafter of legislation and tax and such comes right down on top. Not to mention new measures in tackling addiction which requires vendors to have monitors on individuals gambling to help avoid problems.

 Overread wrote:
Because once you get into actual gambling and can't hide it a whole rafter of legislation and tax and such comes right down on top. Not to mention new measures in tackling addiction which requires vendors to have monitors on individuals gambling to help avoid problems.

Especially when some governments decide that you skimmed Profits you shouldn't have had without taxing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In before EA just re-brands Lootboxes into Live Service Consumer Choice Options, and we have to do this all over again.

Does you member when you could buy full physical game, and not broken into 6 full price dlc? MEMBER?

Yes.

I miss them.

Do you also miss propper expansions?
Like, propper expansions not cut content?

Yep plus you've got to consider your marketing too. It's one thing to hide it behind "lootboxes" but straight up gambling is one of those things that can shut down markets - gamers might refuse to buy; parents will avoid them (lets not be silly a lot of adult and over 18 games are bought by parents for younger kids ;but gambling with real money is a whole other matter than a few red pixels)

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In before EA just re-brands Lootboxes into Live Service Consumer Choice Options, and we have to do this all over again.

Does you member when you could buy full physical game, and not broken into 6 full price dlc? MEMBER?

Well, not much point in buying a physical copy, but I can think of several current and upcoming complete games. That don't need DLC (let alone 'full price' DLCs, which I don't think I've seen often, if ever.

Guys i'm not gonna lie. I have an urge to buy Phoenix Point. There's a few things about it that I like and I enjoy xcom enough to play another xcom type game until xcom 3 comes out (whenever that is). Can you at least tell me the good and bad of epic games store so I don't do something I regret one way or another? I want to be armed with information but hopefully not misinformation or extraordinary rumors.

 Overread wrote:
Because once you get into actual gambling and can't hide it a whole rafter of legislation and tax and such comes right down on top. Not to mention new measures in tackling addiction which requires vendors to have monitors on individuals gambling to help avoid problems.

Isn't it a bad idea to let the government or corporations tell you how to live your life? I'd prefer family and friends personally. Perhaps i'm drifting into politics though.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Isn't it a bad idea to let the government or corporations tell you how to live your life? I'd prefer family and friends personally. Perhaps i'm drifting into politics though.

It's not so much politics as it is society. Even in times when family units were not as heavily broken up as they are now, addiction issues were a major problem and gambling can be highly destructive. Having limitations in place can help prevent or at least attempt to discourage abuse and resulting disasters that can befall people from such an addiction. Of course legislation typically only restricts and places some codes of practice in place - family and other support is often essential to breaking a habit.

Also, think about how cigarette makers targeted children to get them addicted for life. That's what video games are doing and why they bribe the ratings boards to let them get gambling under all ages games.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Guys i'm not gonna lie. I have an urge to buy Phoenix Point. There's a few things about it that I like and I enjoy xcom enough to play another xcom type game until xcom 3 comes out (whenever that is). Can you at least tell me the good and bad of epic games store so I don't do something I regret one way or another? I want to be armed with information but hopefully not misinformation or extraordinary rumors.

It's all rumors pretty much. A lot of the early epic store backlash that I saw literally stemmed from a belief that they were sneaking Chinese spyware onto your computer when you installed it.

The biggest valid concern is that Epic has had issues in the past with hackers and data breaches. Make sure to use two-factor authentication.

The biggest group of anti-epic store people know are the ones that just disagree with the business practice of purchasing exclusives, especially after those exclusives were already announced or on pre-order for steam and other storefronts. As well as an appearance that epic cares more about securing these exclusives that getting their actual storefront up to snuff to compete with steam. (I haven't checked in a while, did they ever get the shopping cart or wishlist added?)


If you don't want to support the epic store, then purchase pheonix point when it releases on steam. That should be approximately one year after the official launch of pheonix point.

balmong7 wrote:
If you don't want to support the epic store, then purchase pheonix point when it releases on steam. That should be approximately one year after the official launch of pheonix point.

Or, ya know, don't buy games from shady developers period. If you must buy it, buy it on G2A. If devs who take Epics bribe money get hurt later on, devs won't take their bribe money any more.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
If you don't want to support the epic store, then purchase pheonix point when it releases on steam. That should be approximately one year after the official launch of pheonix point.

Or, ya know, don't buy games from shady developers period. If you must buy it, buy it on G2A. If devs who take Epics bribe money get hurt later on, devs won't take their bribe money any more.

JARR HARR FIDELDIEDIE, is also an option.

But yeah if the dev has pulled a bait and switzch, G2A seems fair imo.

I don't fully agree that changing the distribution site is a bait and switch move as the product is still the same. It's more of a case when its a shift between no DRM and DRM protected (eg moving off GOG at launch) and I appreciate that paying for a product on one service and then getting it delivered via another is not a good thing; nor something we want to encourage.

I think if Epic had put more of their copious millions into making a really top end store front system then many of the complaints would have reduced even with the distributor change.

Plus I think its important to note that this i the kind of issue where there's a lot of hot air blown around - ergo people complaining but then still getting the game (even if they don't admit to it). Where many comments are just people venting frustrations.



The real test will be what happens in a year. Will Epic make another bold move and say. "Hey this years exclusivity has done us both really well, how about we offer you a second golden handshake and you remain exclusive to us forever". With the predatory and money driven approach Epic has used thus far I can see them making such a move. If they give the same golden promises such as guaranteed sales and a wad of cash up front its going to be another hard thing to pass, esp if the developer has already seen healthy direct sales through the store front. Why release on steam and have less profits when you're making more from Epic and Epic is sweetening the deal.

 Overread wrote:
I don't fully agree that changing the distribution site is a bait and switch move as the product is still the same.

It definitely can be, particularly if the distribution site is also the source of a lot of features the customer expects.

Epic store is just basicly a bit gak with nearly as many security issues as sony have had and they have ties to a shady as feth chinese company.

While Epic have stated no personal data is currently available to Tencent given the complete lack of ethics that they have shown I find it hard to trust Epic not to sell the information if offered enough money.

Right. Epic's security has more holes than swiss cheese. They've had multiple major breaches this year alone, all of which resulted in hackers gaining access to millions of entire accounts as well as all of the details inside, including payment details.

And that's just this year. They are facing a massive class-action lawsuit over how massive this year's breaches alone were.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

balmong7 wrote:
If you don't want to support the epic store, then purchase pheonix point when it releases on steam. That should be approximately one year after the official launch of pheonix point.

Or, ya know, don't buy games from shady developers period. If you must buy it, buy it on G2A. If devs who take Epics bribe money get hurt later on, devs won't take their bribe money any more.

This is the equivalent of saying "Instead of buying flour from this store I don't approve of, lets try the crack dealer down the street."

The real point of contention here is people's fear for their steam library. With so much money and time invested in Valve, many players just feel they are too big to allow to fail and will do whatever it takes to keep Valve (and thier 200+ steam games) afloat. An important task when you don't actually own your games in these DRM-based ecosystem.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The real point of contention here is people's fear for their steam library. With so much money and time invested in Valve, many players just feel they are too big to allow to fail and will do whatever it takes to keep Valve (and thier 200+ steam games) afloat.

That really has nothing to do with it. Epic is just that f***ing bad. I'll gladly buy games from other stores that are competently put together-- I've actually bought more games from GOG than Steam this year, and I still play games from Origin and Uplay, even though they're very mediocre services. But even by comparison to Origin and Uplay, the Epic store is just utterly insecure and ridiculously amateur in implementation.

There is definitely some elements of tribalism around Steam.

There are also serious concerns with a company acquiring marketshare via what is essentially wholesale bribery without actually providing a competitive product.

I will admit if I didn't already own Pheonix Point when the epic switch happened I would never have downloaded the epic store. Not for any real reasons besides all my games are on steam pretty much and I don't want to download another launcher. (This thread actually reminded me that I own games on GoG and Origin. lol)

 Overread wrote:
I don't fully agree that changing the distribution site is a bait and switch move as the product is still the same. It's more of a case when its a shift between no DRM and DRM protected (eg moving off GOG at launch) and I appreciate that paying for a product on one service and then getting it delivered via another is not a good thing; nor something we want to encourage.

I think if Epic had put more of their copious millions into making a really top end store front system then many of the complaints would have reduced even with the distributor change.

Plus I think its important to note that this i the kind of issue where there's a lot of hot air blown around - ergo people complaining but then still getting the game (even if they don't admit to it). Where many comments are just people venting frustrations.



The real test will be what happens in a year. Will Epic make another bold move and say. "Hey this years exclusivity has done us both really well, how about we offer you a second golden handshake and you remain exclusive to us forever". With the predatory and money driven approach Epic has used thus far I can see them making such a move. If they give the same golden promises such as guaranteed sales and a wad of cash up front its going to be another hard thing to pass, esp if the developer has already seen healthy direct sales through the store front. Why release on steam and have less profits when you're making more from Epic and Epic is sweetening the deal.

If you advertise your crowd funded game as beeing on Plattform X, then switch to plattform Y. IT is a bait and switch.

 LunarSol wrote:
There is definitely some elements of tribalism around Steam.

There are also serious concerns with a company acquiring marketshare via what is essentially wholesale bribery without actually providing a competitive product.

To be fair console exclusives used to be a thing but the whole bait and switch thing developers are doing with Epic Store is sleazy. "Yes give us pre-order money....now it's epic store only (or at least for a year). So deal with it suckers!"

Btw does anybody have any review info on Phoenix Point? I haven't heard from anybody that played the actual game and the one person who saw the game wasn't an xcom-style gaming fan. I love xcom so perhaps that person's tastes are different to mine.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
There is definitely some elements of tribalism around Steam.

There are also serious concerns with a company acquiring marketshare via what is essentially wholesale bribery without actually providing a competitive product.

To be fair console exclusives used to be a thing but the whole bait and switch thing developers are doing with Epic Store is sleazy. "Yes give us pre-order money....now it's epic store only (or at least for a year). So deal with it suckers!"

Btw does anybody have any review info on Phoenix Point? I haven't heard from anybody that played the actual game and the one person who saw the game wasn't an xcom-style gaming fan. I love xcom so perhaps that person's tastes are different to mine.

I own it. Haven't played the last couple beta builds because I was waiting for a bit more content to be added in (one of the builds had the perma soldier death but no way to recruit new soldiers). But it's solid so far and they keep adding new stuff and refining things. Check out their youtube channel for some let's play content and how to plays. They recently started a "pheonix point for XCOM Fans" tutorial series that is amazing.

Changing where you can purchase the game after people have pledged money to you/paid for pre-orders is a bait and switch.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
This is the equivalent of saying "Instead of buying flour from this store I don't approve of, lets try the crack dealer down the street."

I'm not really in the drug game, but do crack dealers sell flour? Seems like an odd alternative place of purchase.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Changing where you can purchase the game after people have pledged money to you/paid for pre-orders is a bait and switch.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
This is the equivalent of saying "Instead of buying flour from this store I don't approve of, lets try the crack dealer down the street."

I'm not really in the drug game, but do crack dealers sell flour? Seems like an odd alternative place of purchase.

If you replace flour with baking soda then it works better.