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Made in ca
Posts with Authority




I'm from the future. The future of space

I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

Note I would accept the Primaris storyline if it was followed by a push back of anti imperial forces and then a civil war between an alliance of old marine chapters, some of the high lords, other discontented factions against the Primaris bunch.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Note I would accept the Primaris storyline if it was followed by a push back of anti imperial forces and then a civil war between an alliance of old marine chapters, some of the high lords, other discontented factions against the Primaris bunch.


Been there and done that. Over and over again.

Chapters that refuse the word of the Imperial Regent and Custodes are heretics.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.
Ehhh - I doubt it comes down to play testing. It's a sales gimmick to make you buy particular units. There is no reason primaris can't ride in a storm raven for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 15:14:44


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.


That presumes any playtesting is done at all...

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 frozenwastes wrote:
I hate the separation of transportation between primaris and non primaris but I guess it does reduce playtesting they have to do if older transports can't carry primaris and new ones can't carry shorties.


That presumes any playtesting is done at all...
Play testing is an additional step after actually thinking things through in a mental model. It really seems that even the mental model is skipped in a lot of cases for GW rules. Hard to conceive any of this stuff is actually play tested.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 frozenwastes wrote:
I'm of the belief that they didn't need to push 30k stuff into 40k. That the change in business practicies would have been enough. The Primaris kits could have simply been up scaled marines and a new edition with a new codex could have meant that all marines just become 2 wounds and 2 attacks. The new kits are bigger, you can use your old marines if you want. Primaris sized Tactical, Assault and Devestator kits along with some characters at launch.


Very much this. "Primaris" should have just been true-scale marine model replacements, in the same way that larger plastic termies came to supplant smaller metal ones.

Instead, apparently some guy who has been in stasis for nine thousand years and some random tech priest are better at science than the Emperor. And they've also managed to outfit their super legions with mountains of grav tech that has been steadily disappearing from the Imperium since the heresy? Yeah, that makes sense.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:09:18


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
I kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.


Not after 10,000 years of steady decline. Also, the Imperium doesn't have science. They have a techno-religious caste.

The Primaris are just lazy storytelling in the "let's just make stuff bigger" tradition.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

Martel732 wrote:
I kinda does. People can build on what the emperor did without being smarter. Its how science works.


And literally gets you burnt at the stake in the Imperium.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:08:47


 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

You guys need to read some of the new novels.

Belisarius Cawl is a Master of Masters from the Horus Heresy, and he was a maverick with technology even back then.
He commands vast portions of Mars, has cloned his mind multiple times and has entire armies of tech servants.

He is very much a scientist, and he has the resource - with the support of the Imperial regent - to enact massive change on a galactic scale in terms of Technological dogma.

Guilliman also has some limited influence over the Mechanicus and the sharing of technology is more likely now, instead of being hoarded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:10:28


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.


That's the fundamental admission right there. Primaris don't match the fluff, or develop the fluff, they retcon it.

And do a really bad job of it.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

What have Primaris retconned?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




LeperColony wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I reject that part of the setting as impossible. Evidently, so do the primaris authors.

Its time to end the satire. Its not the 90s.


That's the fundamental admission right there. Primaris don't match the fluff, or develop the fluff, they retcon it.

And do a really bad job of it.


It was impossible to begin with. Nothing lasts 10k years with no innovation. That was the joke. You cant play the 90s imperium straight. It breaks logic too hard. The joke is over they are playing it straight now. Innovation is back by necessity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:23:51


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Independent of the new novels the idea that the Mechanicum burns anyone who tries to change the status quo at the stake is a gross oversimplification that has never been true.

A large part of the nature of 40k is that the universe hates you; if you leave anything up to chance, if you try and do anything without having perfect control over the outcome, it'll probably blow up in your face. The Mechanicum has, accordingly, developed a culture and a set of procedures around innovation that any experimentation has to be ludicrously tightly controlled to prevent it from blowing up and killing everyone. The fact that the rebellion of the Men of Iron led the Mechanicum to tightly restrict the development of computing technology just makes everything proceed more slowly because you can't automate as much of it.

The Mechanicum doesn't declare you a heretic and burn you at the stake for innovating. The Mechanicum declares you a heretic and burns you at the stake for taking shortcuts around proper procedure. They understand that if they don't keep the process under control it's likely to waste resources and kill people.

The reason STC data is so valuable is that it was put together in an age before the Men of Iron when the Imperium made extensive use of computers, and it has been designed and tested with the aid of information processing far beyond the modern Imperium's capabilities, so it's much more robust and stable than things the Imperium has built since.

Cawl came from the era of Arkhan Land (who found the STC data that came to be the Land Raider and the Land Speeder, and decided it might be fun to try sticking bits of them together to try making the grav-raider), the Cybernetica Cortex (when the Mechanicum pushed dangerously close to artificial intelligence by building semi-independent computers based on human brain tissue), and the Darkfire cannon (when the Mechanicum tried to reverse-engineer eldar Dark Lances and came pretty close). The Mechanicum has a spirit of innovation still, and pushes at the bounds of its constraints in an effort to make better stuff; the Malagra caste (internal Mechanicum Inquisition) wouldn't be necessary if they had all decided that there's no need to innovate and only old stuff is ever allowed.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 AnomanderRake wrote:
Independent of the new novels the idea that the Mechanicum burns anyone who tries to change the status quo at the stake is a gross oversimplification that has never been true.

A large part of the nature of 40k is that the universe hates you; if you leave anything up to chance, if you try and do anything without having perfect control over the outcome, it'll probably blow up in your face. The Mechanicum has, accordingly, developed a culture and a set of procedures around innovation that any experimentation has to be ludicrously tightly controlled to prevent it from blowing up and killing everyone. The fact that the rebellion of the Men of Iron led the Mechanicum to tightly restrict the development of computing technology just makes everything proceed more slowly because you can't automate as much of it.

The Mechanicum doesn't declare you a heretic and burn you at the stake for innovating. The Mechanicum declares you a heretic and burns you at the stake for taking shortcuts around proper procedure. They understand that if they don't keep the process under control it's likely to waste resources and kill people.

The reason STC data is so valuable is that it was put together in an age before the Men of Iron when the Imperium made extensive use of computers, and it has been designed and tested with the aid of information processing far beyond the modern Imperium's capabilities, so it's much more robust and stable than things the Imperium has built since.

Cawl came from the era of Arkhan Land (who found the STC data that came to be the Land Raider and the Land Speeder, and decided it might be fun to try sticking bits of them together to try making the grav-raider), the Cybernetica Cortex (when the Mechanicum pushed dangerously close to artificial intelligence by building semi-independent computers based on human brain tissue), and the Darkfire cannon (when the Mechanicum tried to reverse-engineer eldar Dark Lances and came pretty close). The Mechanicum has a spirit of innovation still, and pushes at the bounds of its constraints in an effort to make better stuff; the Malagra caste (internal Mechanicum Inquisition) wouldn't be necessary if they had all decided that there's no need to innovate and only old stuff is ever allowed.


They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


A good approach to licensed novels is to find authors who have written good non-licensed novels (ex. Dan Abnett, Embedded, Timothy Zahn, Cobra) and stick to them. To take an example off the front page of Black Library Nick Kyme has written for White Dwarf and Black Library novels, so we don't know if he's any good when he doesn't have "YAY WARHAMMER" fan loyalty to carry him.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Kaiyanwang wrote:
black library overall is not really well written


That is an incredibly generous assessment.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:44:32


Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


For over 20 years, the Imperium has been consistently depicted as an ossified society in (possibly terminal) decay. Adepts toil their entire lives tabulating figures decades or centuries old, the results of which are long past significance if indeed they ever were. The great mass of humanity lives in ignorance, poverty and suffering. Religious fanaticism is what passes for culture, and great multitudes slog through arduous pilgrimages.

Technology has become the province of a techno-religious caste who understand science only imperfectly and through the prism of ritual. The practical applications are seen as no more important (and possibly less) than the offerings, unctions and prayers that keep the great machines working. The Emperor was a singular individual who, possibly ageless (there were some references that could be seen as connecting him to the Old World), saw his greatest work corrupted.

But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 16:49:53


 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

It took 10 thousand years.

You really do need to read some recent novels, clearly.
Maybe stop getting summaries from 1d4 chan? lol

You've had two years to get used to Primaris. If you're not on board move to a different faction, ignore them or switch hobbies.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

Belisarius Cawl is a Master of Masters from the Horus Heresy, and he was a maverick with technology even back then.
He commands vast portions of Mars, has cloned his mind multiple times and has entire armies of tech servants.

He is very much a scientist, and he has the resource - with the support of the Imperial regent - to enact massive change on a galactic scale in terms of Technological dogma.

Guilliman also has some limited influence over the Mechanicus and the sharing of technology is more likely now, instead of being hoarded.

Well he is a super genius and a taction. Wouldn't it make sense he improve the tech of his 1 million planet empire?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")


Why? Everything changes. Also, desperation is a thing. The humans in Dune didn't even abandon science, they just worked around the AI restriction until Leto II lifted it.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




LeperColony wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You guys need to read some of the new novels.

No, we really shouldn't. Disregarding the fact that the black library overall is not really well written, in 3rd we had all the fluff snippets from the codex and that was enough to have a consistent setting.


For over 20 years, the Imperium has been consistently depicted as an ossified society in (possibly terminal) decay. Adepts toil their entire lives tabulating figures decades or centuries old, the results of which are long past significance if indeed they ever were. The great mass of humanity lives in ignorance, poverty and suffering. Religious fanaticism is what passes for culture, and great multitudes slog through arduous pilgrimages.

Technology has become the province of a techno-religious caste who understand science only imperfectly and through the prism of ritual. The practical applications are seen as no more important (and possibly less) than the offerings, unctions and prayers that keep the great machines working. The Emperor was a singular individual who, possibly ageless (there were some references that could be seen as connecting him to the Old World), saw his greatest work corrupted.

But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.


The thing about science is that it can be recreated from scratch if necessary. Breakoff sectors would quickly outpace the empire, as knowledge is exponential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Yeah, probably. But Geedubs gonna Geedubs. They can't get past the heroic ubermensh. How very German of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 17:00:05


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
LeperColony wrote:


But forget all that. RG wakes up from a nap and together with Beli reverses 10 millennia of intellectual stagnation and in the blink of an eye raise entire legions of perfected super warriors who ride into battle on a vast fleet of brand new grav vehicles (nevermind the fact that Sammael is supposed to have one of the last grav bikes, on account of the fact that the Imperium doesn't know how to make them anymore). What's more, the existing chapters are essentially okay with being replaced, even though much slighter provocations in the past have caused the defection of entire legions (the Dark Angels are forever the unforgiven because the guys they left behind got bored and rebelled).

Even if Primaris were possible, which seems doubtful, it should have been a process much longer and an event much more fractious.

It is presented really badly. Focusing of super people like Cawl and Guilliman was a mistake, and make the whole thing seem puerile.

They should have represented it as a gradual process by generations of people. A Belissarian Conclave instead of one super special Belissarius Cawl. Tie it to the Cursed Founding and other such attempts to tamper with the geneseed.


Making it the results of super people just begs the question "if they did it, why couldn't the emperor?" Why are their results so much better, and without 10,000 years of decline to fight through?

Primaris is just another symptom of GW abandoning the setting inspired by works like Elric, Dune, RuneQuest (GW got its start writing adventures for early RPGs like D&D, RuneQuest and Traveller), Judge Dredd and so on in favor of DragonBall Z'ing everything. The only development they're capable of is louder screaming and brighter flashes. But how many super saiyans can you stack on top of each other?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




But in Dune, remember, technology ended up winning the day. All by Leto's design. The emperor is the budget Leto.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
...They need to quit being pussies and risk Men of Iron again. Mass computation is too valuable. It's like GW read the first two Dune books and quit reading.


Warhammer is, on some level, a cosmic horror story. Humanity is being menaced by forces beyond their control, understanding, or comprehension. The reason the Imperium is so totalitarian and repressive, the reason the Mechanicum has such tight controls on innovation, is that the universe hates everything and if they do anything without keeping it as tightly controlled as possible it'll blow up in their face because that's the nature of the universe.

To my mind it'd be far more damaging to the narrative if the Mechanicum tried to build new AI and the result was "oh, it's fine, we've been panicking for twenty thousand years for no reason, the machines won't turn on you" than almost anything GW has actually done with the setting.

(With the possible exception of Kaldor Draigo. "No, the Chaos Primarchs aren't actually that scary, one random Space Marine can beat them up and dissect them on his own!")


Why? Everything changes. Also, desperation is a thing. The humans in Dune didn't even abandon science, they just worked around the AI restriction until Leto II lifted it.


Leto is a really bad example for you, and a great example for what we're saying. His process takes centuries and results in several civil wars. The Golden Path is meant to prevent Humanity's extinction, but it does so by fracturing unified society and splintering people forever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 17:12:48


 
   
 
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