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 Vaktathi wrote:
From the sound of it FW is basically being tasked with specialist games stuff and everything for the main 40k game is being handled by the main studio, has been for a while now.

I don't think its an issue of the FW people not wanting to do things, more that it's been taken out of their hands and the main GW studio just has no interest in supporting those old pre-8E army lists.

And failing miserable at it imo.
Soa f.e. Are not what they should be as replacement and Corsairs as concept 100% better then Ynnari imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
From the sound of it FW is basically being tasked with specialist games stuff and everything for the main 40k game is being handled by the main studio, has been for a while now.

I don't think its an issue of the FW people not wanting to do things, more that it's been taken out of their hands and the main GW studio just has no interest in supporting those old pre-8E army lists.

And failing miserable at it imo.
Soa f.e. Are not what they should be as replacement and Corsairs as concept 100% better then Ynnari imo.

yeah... they had a finished good, flushed out, cool fluffy working 4th Aeldari race.... they could have been like "Screw you lets make god of death for us" even and it would have worked too.

Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.

Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.

 MattKing wrote:
RIP aggressors. You got a second in the sun before the codex, but now you're 100% replaced by assault centurions.

Aggressors:
(6 +d3) x2(stationary) shots at 18". T5, S4, 3+, 3 wounds, 3 attacks (Power Fist)

Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)

You have a few significant mistakes there:

- An Aggressor is 6 + d6 shots, not 6 + d3.
- An Assault Centurion is only 3 attacks, not 4.
- An Assault Centurion as-armed is 15 points more expensive than an Aggressor as-armed. I'm not sure how you got 7.

I'd talk about maximising Aggressors with your faction traits and what-not but you'd do the same thing for the Centurions if you have any sense. Ranged Marksmen under a UM successor is pretty obnoxious on Aggressors and I don't think Cents have a combo quite that broken yet, but there are still at least four codexes that I haven't seen yet. (IH and RG are taking their sweet time getting delivered.)

On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.

Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.

Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.

Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.


I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.

The Newman wrote:
On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.

Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...

 Dysartes wrote:

The Newman wrote:
On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.

Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...

...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.

Dreads were a lot better though back in 3rd and even 4th at least to me. They'd been pretty meh since 5th on but I'd argue they aren't too bad right now, they just aren't too great right now either.

The Newman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

The Newman wrote:
On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.

Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...

...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.

There is an AV14 Dreadnaught, but it's Bray'arth Ashmantle (40k)/Cassian Dracos (30k), both of which are epic relic chassis built by Vulkan.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

The Newman wrote:
On topic; Dreadnaughts. They used to be one of the toughest things in the game back in 3rd; they were Armor 14 on the front face when only other units to have a 14 at all were Land Raiders and the Monolith, and the Dread was a lot cheaper than either. In 4th they went from the second toughest piece of Marine armor to the second flimsiest after Speeders, and never really recovered.

Erm - are you sure about SM Dreadnoughts having AV14 on the front? I just went and checked the unit entry for Codex: Space Marines, and they were 12/12/10...

...well I suppose that's what I get for not doing a little research first, I was thinking of the 2nd / 3rd ed transition. I honestly didn't think I'd been playing that far back.

There is an AV14 Dreadnaught, but it's Bray'arth Ashmantle (40k)/Cassian Dracos (30k), both of which are epic relic chassis built by Vulkan.

It wasn't just that they were tough, it was that they were tough and cheap.

 MattKing wrote:
RIP aggressors. You got a second in the sun before the codex, but now you're 100% replaced by assault centurions.

Aggressors:
(6 +d3) x2(stationary) shots at 18". T5, S4, 3+, 3 wounds, 3 attacks (Power Fist)

Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)

I would be all: but points cost difference... until I looked up the costs.

you save 45 points on the aggressors, but to get the units into position(where the Cents can slog it and fire hurricane bolters without as much need for transport) Those 45 points are more than evened out via Land raider vs Repulsor costs.

so... yeah, Assault cents are just all around better.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
RIP aggressors. You got a second in the sun before the codex, but now you're 100% replaced by assault centurions.

Aggressors:
(6 +d3) x2(stationary) shots at 18". T5, S4, 3+, 3 wounds, 3 attacks (Power Fist)

Assault Centurions (+7 points)
12+2d6 (always) shots at 24"/8". T5, S5, 2+, 4 wounds, 4 attacks (No penalty Thunder Hammer)

I would be all: but points cost difference... until I looked up the costs.

you save 45 points on the aggressors, but to get the units into position(where the Cents can slog it and fire hurricane bolters without as much need for transport) Those 45 points are more than evened out via Land raider vs Repulsor costs.

so... yeah, Assault cents are just all around better.

Uh, it's not hard to let Aggressors threaten a 26" range and double-tap on turn-one even after moving with the right faction traits. They're 19 shots per model on average, Cents only manage that within 11" with the same buffs. Cents are probably better delivered via Encirclement under White Scars, but that just means neither unit actually needs a transport and the difference in cost between LRs and Repulsors isn't really a factor.

A long held one for me: Space Marine Scouts.

I've always had a bit of a problem with people just taking Scouts because they're cheap Troops choices, because realistically, Scouts shouldn't be Troops. They're not the core of an army (unless it's 10th Company, but then, we should let Devastators Squads be Troops too because they're the core of the 9th Company), they're too different from the standard power armour of the Space Marines to be considered a "baseline" unit in my opinion, and would be far better off actually serving in the Fast Attack slot.

Basically, Scouts being spammed and used as the core of an army because they're the cheapest Space Marines just feels wrong for what they're supposed to be.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
A long held one for me: Space Marine Scouts.

I've always had a bit of a problem with people just taking Scouts because they're cheap Troops choices, because realistically, Scouts shouldn't be Troops. They're not the core of an army (unless it's 10th Company, but then, we should let Devastators Squads be Troops too because they're the core of the 9th Company), they're too different from the standard power armour of the Space Marines to be considered a "baseline" unit in my opinion, and would be far better off actually serving in the Fast Attack slot.

Basically, Scouts being spammed and used as the core of an army because they're the cheapest Space Marines just feels wrong for what they're supposed to be.

Imagine how it felt being a SW player when they got the WS/BS buff. A cheaper version of the unit in a better FOC slot.

Here's a unit that's already lost its role: Primaris Reivers.

When you consider Incursors' ability to get an extra Hit on every 6, they end up getting very close to the same number of hits that a Reiver gets in close combat. Same strength and AP. The big difference? Incursors have Concealed Positions whereas Reivers have to pay 2 extra points per model to get deep strike.

Reivers have Terror Troops and Shock Grenades, but Incursors have bolt weapons that ignore cover, haywire mines, smoke grenades, and an ability that ignores BS/to hit modifiers. Incursors are also, critically, a troop option.

So... Yeah. There you have it. Reivers, a brand new unit, has already lost its role in a Primaris army.

Hey I did think of one, another one anyways.

Space Wolf Wolf scouts.

They used to feel kind of cool, for a bit. At this point they are just scouts in a worse slot with some more variance for special weapon use.

Very cool fluff, would be easy to give them some rules befitting such but no. Instead they are just crap with really no reason or point. Sitting down next to the space wolf Reivers who also have little point or reason. Isn't it odd in the space wolf book they both seemingly only talk to each other ? Probably because they both suck a bit and lack focus or point.

This is a great thread. It would be nice for Proposed Rules to go through here and make some fixes for all these guys.
In fact, here's a thread for that.

Necron Monoliths.

They used to be massive, towering, tough to kill, and had nasty firepower.

It now costs more than 2 leman russes, with half the firepower of two leman russes, less wounds than 2 leman russes, a gate you will never be able to use due to the awkward wording.

Or even worse, you can get two doomsday arks for the same price, double the firepower, and with quantum shielding.

They are now oversized paperweights. They're a joke, and its sad as the army's first, and most iconic tank, has been a disaster for a long time.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Hey I did think of one, another one anyways.

Space Wolf Wolf scouts.

They used to feel kind of cool, for a bit. At this point they are just scouts in a worse slot with some more variance for special weapon use.

Very cool fluff, would be easy to give them some rules befitting such but no. Instead they are just crap with really no reason or point. Sitting down next to the space wolf Reivers who also have little point or reason. Isn't it odd in the space wolf book they both seemingly only talk to each other ? Probably because they both suck a bit and lack focus or point.

The real tragedy is that Space Wolves Scouts don't have Vet stats.

Arson Fire wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.

Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.

Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.

Spoiler:

Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.

Spoiler:

I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.

Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.

The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.

 stonehorse wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.

Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.

Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.

Spoiler:

Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.

Spoiler:

I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.

Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.

The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.

Its model by model to pile in/consolidate not units by unit.

And that "gamey" is a solid tactic and not a WAAC/TFG tactic, its been known and used from day 1 of 8th, you can still "fallback" thats the point its to make you run away, or to pull you in.

 stonehorse wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Hormagaunts.

Their role was to quickly tie up enemy units in melee, to keep the enemy unit in place till something bigger could come a long and do the damage, and/or pin enemy units that were a threat in place.

They were never really designed to do a serious amount of damage, just board and area control.

Now units in combat with them can just simply disengage from combat in their turn... and some that do can still shoot.

They cost slightly more than Termagants, have no ranged attack, so don't make good objective campers, at least they no longer eat themselves like they did in in previous editions.

Their role no longer exists, due to a core rule, so they are in a place of limbo.

WHat are you talking about? Hgants are amazing at board control and tying up units, they get a 6" Pile in/Consolidate, they can move up to 3 times in kraken if you wanted to. I always played with them and they always are all over the board. Just dont charge Fly units.

A unit of Hormagaunts may be quick, and may even be large. However by the time it gets into combat it fill be reduced due to being T3 with a 6+ save. Whether that reduction is from shooting, overwatch, and/or combat the unit will be a lot smaller and cover a small area when it comes to consolidate, thus the enemy unit can simply disengage on their turn. Meaning that the Hormagaunts have not pinned the enemy unit in place, sure the unit can't shot, but other units will happily delete the remnants of the Hormagaunt unit.

Been playing Tyranids since 2nd edition, they are a far cry from what they used to be and their role is something that they rarely manage to accomplish.

Are you familiar with tactics such as hostage taking? You don't need to surround an entire enemy unit, just a single model. If every model in a unit cannot get free, then that unit cannot fall back.

Spoiler:

Hormagaunts are really good at it, due to their 6" pile in + consolidation moves.

Spoiler:

I find they still work exactly as you describe. A non-killy but very annoying tarpit, that excels at tying up multiple enemy units.
They could probably be a point cheaper, but that's more a balancing concern than one of the unit not working the same way.

Haven't played 40k in over a year, but I am quite sure that pile in/consolidate moves have to be made towards the nearest enemy model/unit.

The Congo line you suggest looks as dumb as a brick. Having to resort to 'gamey' shenanigans like that to get them to work, just highlights how bad the rules are. They are meant to be a swarm that overwhelms their foe, not dancing to 'Do The Congo' by Black Lace.

Pile in/Consolidate moves are made model by model, and have to put you closer towards the nearest enemy model. But not necessarily directly towards that model. You can absolutely circle around them.
Charge moves on the other hand simply have to end with one of your models within 1" of a target enemy unit. The remainder of your models are free to be placed anywhere, so long as they retain coherency.
My example there looks daft mainly because it's an extreme case. While technically possible, it's more likely that units you'll want to lock down will be much closer together, so you won't have to resort to it.

In any case, this is how 8th edition assault armies are played at a high level, and part of how they can remain competitive against shooting gunlines.
Hormagaunts are particularly good at it, and by coincidence it happens to make them function in a very similar manner to your original description of how they used to work.

You have to use the attacks though, so tripointing one model is unreliable as the enemy can pick it away as casualty.

Gitdakka wrote:
You have to use the attacks though, so tripointing one model is unreliable as the enemy can pick it away as casualty.

That's why you tripoint model from unit you didn't charge. In these examples the enemy unit on left you declare charge, enemy unit on right you don't. You tri point the unit on right and you CANNOT attack it(as you didn't charge vs it).

Or you tripoint a model that is unlikely to die, like a character or vehicle.

Pretty much all units that were cavalry (whether hard hitting on the charge or annoying flankers) equivalents. Dislike how movement has become rather irrelevant other than for gamey tricks (which were always a thing, if frowned upon).

Dai wrote:
Pretty much all units that were cavalry (whether hard hitting on the charge or annoying flankers) equivalents. Dislike how movement has become rather irrelevant other than for gamey tricks.

i blame a combination of scale and sizecreep aswell as absurd baseline terrain rules for that one.
But it is a shame because by consequence transports have also become less viable.