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Marine mini dexes are taking GW's love of Marines to the extreme. I'm glad all of the Space Marine players got a dex for their army, but after these two releases, can we go back to looking at other topics? We still have the updates on all of the other marine chapters to have to wade through (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Black Templars, Deathwatch). SOOOO tired of marines. The only way this makes me happy is if GW brings an end to soup lists and goes back to "just play with the stuff in your dex."

So, from another thread, apparently with the christmas releases GW's putting out start collecting chaos and SM Vanguard boxes that take the seperate parts from shadowspear

Smellingsalts wrote:
Marine mini dexes are taking GW's love of Marines to the extreme. I'm glad all of the Space Marine players got a dex for their army, but after these two releases, can we go back to looking at other topics? We still have the updates on all of the other marine chapters to have to wade through (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Black Templars, Deathwatch). SOOOO tired of marines. The only way this makes me happy is if GW brings an end to soup lists and goes back to "just play with the stuff in your dex."

If you're tired of marines, why did you click on this thread, and create this 'compelling' response?

You can be tired of marines, or even the game in general, and still be interested in following its developments so you can stay aware of the game's evolution. I play CSM and Eldar...but I'm still reading these threads so I'm aware of the pulse of the game.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.

The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.

Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.

Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...

It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.

Any unit "wholly within" terrain.

Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.

Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.

A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.

This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.

You can definitely plan against it, but if you play on a board with quality terrain the chances of finding something within terrain is pretty high. If anything the power could serve to double up on the "don't go in terrain" methodology, so it could be taken simply as a scare tactic.

I bet even the savviest of players will forget and have a walker or a character, etc. end up in terrain without realizing it. It's a strong spell that will require a lot of concentration to remember the play your game entirely out-of-cover. I'd bet you could reasonable use out of it in most games. Doubly so if you have objective markers inside a terrain feature.

Seeing you gain zero benefit from going into terrain it's fairly sure opponents will avoid going to terrain.

Never assume your opponent is going to fall simple easily avoided well known trick.

Lemondish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.

The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.

Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.

Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...

It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.

Any unit "wholly within" terrain.

Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.

Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.

A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.

This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.

remember this codex applies to IF sucessors as well, so someone playing as the "White Gauntlets" sucessor chapter might have a differant list of traits and thus not ignore cover

Also there are plenty of times when you have no choice but to go into cover, say to reach an objective

tneva82 wrote:
Seeing you gain zero benefit from going into terrain it's fairly sure opponents will avoid going to terrain.

Never assume your opponent is going to fall simple easily avoided well known trick.

Raven Guard only get their -1 to be hit when in terrain...and it seems like they might be headed that route for everyone else down the line.

Terrain has more uses than just cover saves. Like giving heavy weapons better line of sight so they don't have to move.

And if you can make your opponent leave models out of terrain, and thus easier to see and shoot, just to avoid a psychic power then the power is still doing something, even if you don't cast it

Lemondish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.

The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.

Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.

Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...

It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.

Any unit "wholly within" terrain.

Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.

Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.

A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.

This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.

Exactly. The thing that's great about Imperial Fists is they force the opponent to deploy differently. They're super powerful when you think about it that way.

So when then opponent won't use terrain a lot...why is this even a power?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
What a waste of a spell slot, provided nothing at all happens to buildings in the near future that actually makes them good.

The Doctrine has been discussed since the leaks and rumours, and we've seen Tor's data sheet. Such a weird unit. He should have had a heavy Bolter on his shoulder or a bolt weapon in that other empty hand. I love the model though and I'll find room for him for the 2+ BS power and his ridiculous fist.

Already expected that strat - everyone else got one exactly like it for their own preferred doctrine.

Eye of Hypnoth, just like it was in Vigilus, is awesome here. No issues with that. Hoping more Vigilus stuff makes it over...

It works on buildings or any unit standing in terrain. I've yet to see a single game that doesn't have people put models in terrain if only to put them up higher so they can get better Line of Sight.

Any unit "wholly within" terrain.

Ask yourself why someone would put a unit wholly within terrain? To get a cover save.

Now ask yourself what does an Imperial Fist army do? Deny cover saves.

A savvy opponent would see you selected this power and always trail a model or two outside the terrain piece.

This is a tool you'll be able to use in 1 out of 10 games, and only because you encountered the perfect scenario or you're facing a lower skill opponent that makes a bad call on placement. It requires LoS from the Librarian, so that's pretty easy to avoid.

Exactly. The thing that's great about Imperial Fists is they force the opponent to deploy differently. They're super powerful when you think about it that way.

So when then opponent won't use terrain a lot...why is this even a power?

could be something GW expects to see more from Imperial fist sucessors?

Do people not play with buildings taller than 1 level outsode of my FLGS or something? A unit at the top of a building is harder to charge. It also gets better LOS to the rest of the table. It can also limit how they can be effectively targetted by enemy units.

A cover save is only part of the reason terrain is important. This idea that people won't use terrain at all just because of this is silly.

I don't get the craze though. So it's a targeted smite that averages 3 Mortal Wounds instead of most targeted smites averaging just 1 or 2, but requires both visibility and to be in terrain.

Things like Eldar Executioner is probably still better against infantry with 1-wound models, as it averages 4 Mortal Wounds, doesn't need LOS and has no terrain requirement. Most TS targeted smites are also more versatile. The IF spell is not bad, but it's not the thing that should worry people about Marines, lol.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't get the craze though. So it's a targeted smite that averages 3 Mortal Wounds instead of most targeted smites averaging just 1 or 2, but requires both visibility and to be in terrain.

Things like Eldar Executioner is probably still better against infantry with 1-wound models, as it averages 4 Mortal Wounds, doesn't need LOS and has no terrain requirement. Most TS targeted smites are also more versatile. The IF spell is not bad, but it's not the thing that should worry people about Marines, lol.

No one is saying it's the best thing ever, but it doesn't have to target the closest unit, has an easy casting value and good average number of mortals meaning it's a decent option if you're trying to take extra MW options.

Of course, but the power does nothing against a unit out of LoS and outside terrain. That's not unique to this power - few things ignore LoS - but the power does nothing to help in that situation.

Basically it says to your opponent "not only do you gain no benefit from cover, you also get killed by it". They're likely to respond by getting out of the cover. As has been pointed out, even a single model outside the terrain prevents this power from working, so it's not even really preventing them from moving through terrain.

Mandragola wrote:
Of course, but the power does nothing against a unit out of LoS and outside terrain. That's not unique to this power - few things ignore LoS - but the power does nothing to help in that situation.

Basically it says to your opponent "not only do you gain no benefit from cover, you also get killed by it". They're likely to respond by getting out of the cover. As has been pointed out, even a single model outside the terrain prevents this power from working, so it's not even really preventing them from moving through terrain.

Exactly my initial read on it as well.

Though in hindsight it does seem like it's reliably useful against snipers and the like who feel forced into terrain to get the best vantage point?

There is value, however small, in forcing your opponent to play around your selected powers so that they deny you use of the ability. You're each giving something up here though, and I honestly find my spell slots too valuable to commit to a single 'gotcha' move that only works when my opponent is playing poorly with positioning. Situationally powerful? I think we can agree on that assessment.

Combined with a preview of a relic we've already seen, a copy of the same stratagem every supplement gets (identical to Engine Purge from Iron Hands), a CF relic that has existed for almost all of 8th, and an admittedly cool trait in Indomitable. I'm still pretty annoyed with the limitations on that Doctrine, and with so few actual hits there in the rest of the preview I'm simultaneously hopeful they gave us only what we could already confirm mostly from the leaks, and dreading the idea that these are the best options they had to show and the rest are duds.

So the Salamander preview is up, but look at this picture:



Do those bits of rubble across the lower right through middle right look new to you?

They appear to be various rubble/junk, but all part of an integral textured base. Then the bit the Reiver is standing on appears to be another ruin with an integral base.

I cannot find these pieces in any other terrain kit (they're not part of this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or this, or even this).

I think those are new...

I think you may be right.

Looks like a sector mechanicus equivalent of the ork rubble/barricades from the speed freeks box

Maybe part of the Zone Mortalis we keep hearing about?

Was scanning IA for salamander potential winners and hit on rappers and thought omg imperial fists.

9 quad heavy bolters could it be good... 96 (morenlike 112 with 6s being another shot) s5 minus 2 2dmg vs vehicles. Obv with a chapter master with reroll wounds 1 wounds thing

Should nearly kill 2 knights in one turn

 Red Corsair wrote:
So quad rapier heavy bolters are going to be annoying as hell.

Edit: but apparently the good marines only get one per slot unlike chaos. So I guess just 3 lol

oh are they relics?!

thats such a weird thing between the two books, kinda fluffy i guess.

In retropect after someone fires those boys once they'll be dead next turn as they are not to hard to kill.

Don't think so. If they were relics with 1-3 squadrons you could take 3 slots of HS and then 9 rapier's. But they are unit size 1. So each datasheet you take=1 gun. Rule of 3=max 3 datasheets=max 3 rapiers.

oh! my mistake just assumed they were 1-3 like chaos.

still, defo still a candidate for a cheeky IF spearhead

From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!

Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
From the looks of it, there appears to be ten Bolters per two frames on the Infilcursor kit. This is perfect. I am going to convert a squad or two of Reivers into Incursors, that way I can make three squads of Infiltrators and three squads of Incursors using this kit. Fantastic!

Edit: I am not seeing any bits for the Helix Adept though. What gives?!

That bit was arm and shoulder pad in Vanguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tank Hunters Strat giving +1 to wound versus vehicles makes IF even better tank hunters.

It's so confusing as to why the Doctrines cards come with these preorders instead of the Codex when it dropped.