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Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Continuity wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights


I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.

Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?

What does the IK player do, exactly?
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Bring more souped in fodder,probably.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





As a Necron player, I just feel like not paying anymore. At least not in ANY kind of competitive context, even the FLGS is too heavy.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I just feel like not paying anymore. At least not in ANY kind of competitive context, even the FLGS is too heavy.

I feel ya and I see similar reactions all the time.

Keep the faith though buddy, hopefully a new big Necron character is on the way!
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone confirm if the following is correct (based on the rumoured/leaked stratagems) please?

Deathwing Knights are 350 pts for 10 models with a 2+, 3++ and 5+++ against Mortal Wounds if Lazarus is nearby. They can Deep Strike up to 6" away with a rerollable charge if Sammael is used to summon them with the 2 CP stratagem. Their damage output is very high in CQC. If they somehow fail the charge (88.44% chance of making it), they can get -1 to wound AND stack Transhuman Physiology. A KNIGHT will be wounding them on 5s or 6s and they get their 3++. If Sammael isn't used/is somehow killed any Ravenwing unit can summon them in. The cost to summon them is 2CP. The costs for the -1 to wound and Transuman are 1CP and 2CP respectively (worst case, if they fail that charge (11.56%)).

If so these seem really, really un-fun to play against.



5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 22:53:16


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Continuity wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights


I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.

Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?

What does the IK player do, exactly?
Just double checking your math...

15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
5.19 failed saves out of cover

Now, you're spending a TON of resources to do it, but you can body half the squad with Lootas. Halve that if they get cover, but still.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 JNAProductions wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Continuity wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, but that's not much consolation for anyone who can't take them.

Lol right? Or those factions that lack a way to spam MW. Or a way to forward deploy.


I assume you play Orks, why do you think you will have trouble against DW knights? You’ve got endless grots to screen the first teleport and Lootas absolutely dumpster on DW knights. I actually can’t think of a faction that cares less about DW knights


I don't have endless Grots. My Grots are required to keep those expensive Lootas and SSAGs alive by sacrificing themselves. I also think you're massively undervaluing the ability to keep your opponent in their own deployment zone. Not gonna win many games if my Grots never leave my deployment and get to objectives. Lootas do not effectively kill DW Knights - did I not mention the survivability stratagems already? With those stratagems the Double Shooting, more Dakka Lootas kill 2 models if they're not in cover. If they're in cover it's a single model dead.

Also, I might prefer to take other units than Grots or Lootas. What then?

What does the IK player do, exactly?
Just double checking your math...

15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)
5.19 failed saves out of cover

Now, you're spending a TON of resources to do it, but you can body half the squad with Lootas. Halve that if they get cover, but still.


15 lootas according to battlescibe turn out to be about 255 points vs the 350 points and 4 CPs for the terminators.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

You'd be ignoring the 4 CP, minimum, to get the Loota squad to put out that output. 2 from Moar Dakka, 2 more from Showin off. Then to keep the lootas from disappearing to a stiff breeze, you'll need 30+ points and another CP for a Grot squad and Grot Wall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 23:28:32


Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 JNAProductions wrote:

15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)

I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.

Thanks for checking though.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)

I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.

Thanks for checking though.
Transhuman Physiology is unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail to wound.

-1 to-wound, assuming that's all it does, makes it so a weapon that normally wounds on a 3+ would wound on a 4+. Or, rather, it wounds on a 3+ on 1d6-1.

So, you have six results per die:

1-1=0: fails to wound
2-1=1: fails to wound
3-1=2: fails to wound
4-1=3: succeeds at wounding
5-1+4: succeeds at wounding
6-1+5: succeeds at wounding

They overlap. Not stack.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






BrianDavion wrote:
5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap

The chance of him "blowing his charge" is around 10%. I wouldn't bank on it.

So it's a 2 CP investment, in reality (assuming the player uses this to charge and not just sit in the mid-field camping as an area denial tool).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

15 Lootas with 2 shots each (firing twice, so 4)
60 shots
20 hits, 20 extra shots, 10 rerolls for 31.11 hits
15.56 wounds on a 4+ (Transhuman Physiology and the -1 to-wound strat do NOT stack like that)

I'm sure Transhuman and the -1 to wound strat stacks as I said and my maths therefore is correct.

Thanks for checking though.
Transhuman Physiology is unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail to wound.

-1 to-wound, assuming that's all it does, makes it so a weapon that normally wounds on a 3+ would wound on a 4+. Or, rather, it wounds on a 3+ on 1d6-1.

So, you have six results per die:

1-1=0: fails to wound
2-1=1: fails to wound
3-1=2: fails to wound
4-1=3: succeeds at wounding
5-1+4: succeeds at wounding
6-1+5: succeeds at wounding

They overlap. Not stack.

We don't have the wording on this stratagem do we? From what I gather, people who have seen the book believe they stack. Until I see otherwise I'm taking their word. Unless you have other evidence?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 23:53:17


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab



What, this already published Stratagem?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
As a Necron player, I just feel like not paying anymore. At least not in ANY kind of competitive context, even the FLGS is too heavy.

I feel ya and I see similar reactions all the time.

Keep the faith though buddy, hopefully a new big Necron character is on the way!


ahaha, are you ready for a new "Cryptek Powers" list, and an optional piece of wargear that lets Tomb Spiders also cast from it.

Because that's all you xenos are getting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
ote]


5 CPs mind you is a LOT of points for Marines. if he blows his charge and uses those two strats he's proably used up most if not all of his CPs by then. So it's potent but it's really a pretty major use of your resources. it's not a trick you can pull on the cheap


Are we forgetting the 6" deepstrike? I feel like we're forgetting the 6" deepstrike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 00:01:15


 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 JNAProductions wrote:


What, this already published Stratagem?

Fair enough.

So what do I do if I don't take Lootas? E - or if they have cover?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 00:03:11


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:


What, this already published Stratagem?

Fair enough.

So what do I do if I don't take Lootas? E - or if they have cover?


Just run some squig buggies, or stick a bunch of SSAG inside Squiggoths and win. Stop down playing Orks.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:


What, this already published Stratagem?

Fair enough.

So what do I do if I don't take Lootas? E - or if they have cover?
Get stuffed?

This wasn't saying that your proposed strategy is a bad one, just that your math/assumptions were incorrect.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 JNAProductions wrote:
Get stuffed?

This wasn't saying that your proposed strategy is a bad one, just that your math/assumptions were incorrect.

Lol in all seriousness I appreciate you sharing that pic of the stratagem - I hadn't seen the wording and agree it doesn't stack which is a massive relief in terms of how to play against it.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:


What, this already published Stratagem?

Fair enough.

So what do I do if I don't take Lootas? E - or if they have cover?


10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely

You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Marines have a LOT of tools to do a LOT of things, but they can't fit them all into a list. I mean, you're just as likely to see a DA gunline as you are a "death wing assault force" this is good as it means not every marine player is going to play a broken combo, and bad because if you know you're playing DA you might not be able to perpare for everything

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





OK, people getting real silly with the theoryhammer.

10 deathwing knights 350pts
Sammael on corvex (not the best mount, but you need the biker keyword) 140
Deathwing Ancient with Banner (has a chance to get where he needs to, unlike Lazarus and gives Knights 5+ FNP) 75 (with claws just for s+g)

So, you've invested 565pts in a one trick pony (which is not great since you have to get all 10 of those knights within 6" of Sammy...a larger RW bike unit would be better, but could be killed/tremor shelled), that can't even work until Turn 2 or 3.

It's so CP hungry and one dimensional that I have no clue why anyone outside of a knight player would worry.

Sure it's cool, but it won't break any army.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





theoryhammerers tend to assume unlimited CPs when crunching this stuff out I've found.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





BrianDavion wrote:
theoryhammerers tend to assume unlimited CPs when crunching this stuff out I've found.


Unlimited CP, no LOS blocking terrain at all and every single model is forever in range for both ranged and melee.


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 1700 | 3600 | 2100 | 550

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean that is why theoryhammer has a place to give some idea of use and effectiveness while you should always reserve judgement until you actually use them or see them get used in real games. Theory is well and good but use is found on the table top and you see the theory from the reality can be different things.

I know that shouldn't be a revelation but sometimes you'd be surprised it can be.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





If my DA friend would pull off that stunt, I'd probably high-five him for it. His Knights have been dead weight since the start of the edition.

Orks struggle with 2+/3++ units in general, the only real solution to them are mortal wounds. Luckily weird boyz are quite reliable at throwing those down. Outside of that, just feed those knights a unit per turn and move away from them, they'll struggle to make back their points.

Besides that, if there is a ravenwing unit close enough to drop deathwing knights, they might as well be ravenwing black knights and light up the target with weapons from the dark age.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/18 10:30:23


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 NurglesR0T wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
theoryhammerers tend to assume unlimited CPs when crunching this stuff out I've found.


Unlimited CP, no LOS blocking terrain at all and every single model is forever in range for both ranged and melee.


Don't forget to completely ignore "not being able to plough an infinite number of points into a single unit", and that that unit will always been in range of all the available buffing characters in the army list.
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Continuity wrote:
10 terminators fully in cover while still within 6'' of optimal charge target? Not likely

You want to know what you do about a problem if you don't take the solution to a problem? You...still have the problem I guess? But what does that prove?


This is some disingenuous arguing if ever I saw it.

DW Knights don't need to charge anything. They can be teleported into the mid table and sit there all game, winning it [the game] for the DA player. They are a massive threat to anything in CC. They are very tanky and can be plonked on a mid-game objective virtually risk free. Sammael on Corvex is taken anyway, but cheaper options exist if he's too expensive (and he's only suggested because he has the re-roll charges ability, but CP can be used for that anyway). He, and the other RW units are extremely mobile so can be virtually anywhere you need by Turn 2. There's also always the option of taking normal DW Termies and shooting said screen on arrival before charging the juicy targets behind. 40 Storm Bolter shots will kill 18-19 Grots. Take one or two models in the unit with TH and SS to soak up shots with the 3++.

You present Lootas and Grots as a solution - how many points and CP do I need to invest in this "solution"? How many Grots do you recommend to screen? Why hasn't the DA player destroyed/severely weakened the Grot Screen by T2? What happens if my Lootas can't draw LOS on the Knights? Why are the Knights dropping in an unfavourable position and not utilising the best part of the stratagem (they get to drop only 6" away from enemy units thus "normal" screening will be ineffective)?

I play Evil Sunz Orks so my Lootas don't reroll 1s to hit and they can't shoot twice. I did the maths for Bad Moonz Lootas because we always assume optimal conditions. And if your response is "just play Bad Moonz Lootas" you'll forgive me for telling DA (and all other Marine players) to "just play Iron Hands" if their particular sub faction is struggling.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Normal screening still works unless you leave a gap big enough behind your screen to squeeze 10 40mm bases in in a 6" radius.

How do you deal with Letterbombs, other Orks Da Jumping you, or Tzaangor bombs?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Normal screening still works unless you leave a gap big enough behind your screen to squeeze 10 40mm bases in in a 6" radius.

How do you deal with Letterbombs, other Orks Da Jumping you, or Tzaangor bombs?

I kill them after they have dropped - the key difference between all of those units above and those we're discussing here is durability. The other difference is that those units above are all less likely to make the charge.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.

Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC Letterbombs have something like a 97% chance of making an 8" charge (+1" to charges from Instrument, 3D6 from banner, reroll charges). It doesn't get much more stable than that.

Honestly, this is sounding more like the problem is, as pointed out above, that Orks struggle against 2+ save units and could do with more and/or better options to counter them. Various Imperium armies wouldn't struggle to deal with what is effectively 10 TH/SS Terminators, Chaos has a bunch of ways of countering them, Eldar has counters, and so on.


Orks have plenty of ways to deal with that including sheer weight of attacks, which is the bane of all terminators.

If someone wants to stick to Evil Sunz then they shouldn't be taking Lootas and complaining about them.

   
 
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