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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.

It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.

For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.

The Newman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.

It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.

For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.

That's a good argument, but the fact remains that they do still make them. And I find it hard to believe that advanced armour plating is harder to produce than anti-grav technology. The argument isn't that stuff like land raiders and terminators aren't hard to make, it's whether or not they're harder to make than the new primaris stuff.

Ok, that's valid. So riddle me this:

Which requires the more specialized tools and know-how; making a functional hand-cranked electrical generator or making a single standard-thread 3/4" bolt out of tungsten carbide? One looks more complicated but the other requires a significantly higher tech-base.

Yes, but we're not talking about an electrical generator. We're talking about anti-gravity technology. What kind of tech base do you think that would require? Especially when you need it to float a 70 ton tank. Or, in the case of the Astreus, a roughly 300 ton one. And that thing has a 2+ save, so you probably need some of that advanced armour plating there too. If it takes five years to make one Fellblade....

The Newman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.

It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.

For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.

You can resharpen a modern ax with a stone . It just takes a long time, around 2 hours for a spliting ax. the problems are the handles and the pins, if those break replacement with stuff made from other materials makes the ax heads wobbly and you go through a haft real fast. Like 2 years and you have to replace it.

Diamond filles for sharpening are great, but stone whetstones are still used.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yes, but we're not talking about an electrical generator. We're talking about anti-gravity technology. What kind of tech base do you think that would require? Especially when you need it to float a 70 ton tank. Or, in the case of the Astreus, a roughly 300 ton one. And that thing has a 2+ save, so you probably need some of that advanced armour plating there too. If it takes five years to make one Fellblade....

And we have no idea how hard anti-gravity technology actually is because it's fictional. It could easily be something like GPS where the parts of the system aren't that complicated (it's just satellite radio beacons and a computer capable of doing triangulation fast enough) but you absolutely cannot build one without General Relativity because you'd never get the satellites in the right place without it. The Atomic bomb is a better one, it's just the right material inside a properly shaped explosion, but you need the science to tell you it's even possible before you'd think of trying to do it. One good advance in unified field theory could put anti-grav engines all over the place even though they look impossible now.

Ask someone from 1700 whether a model T or our hypothetical tungsten carbide bolt required the higher tech level and they'd probably answer incorrectly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.

It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.

For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.

You can resharpen a modern ax with a stone . It just takes a long time, around 2 hours for a spliting ax. the problems are the handles and the pins, if those break replacement with stuff made from other materials makes the ax heads wobbly and you go through a haft real fast. Like 2 years and you have to replace it.

Diamond filles for sharpening are great, but stone whetstones are still used.

Your average ax from the hardware store still has a wooden handle and a pressure wedge hammered into the end. We don't have to be talking about a high-end tool here.

And our hypothetical bronze-age weapon smith would be trying to sharpen an iron ax with a stone best suited to sharpening bronze. Which could be exactly the same type of stone for all I know, but that's kind of beside the point. The ax head is still irreplaceable, and there is some level of damage to that ax head that could not be repaired with the available tools.

Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.

Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.

Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.

Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there are other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all, just like an Abraham Tank is harder to build than an Atomic Bomb once you know such a thing is possible.

Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.

But isnt the IOM dogma on tech been limited to maintaing what exists becauses it 'perfect' and trying to update stuff is heresay against the daoc or whatever ancestors that were the peak of human know-wots

Cawls new toys might be more complicated but are most likely built to practical use rather than having lots of extra worthless bits that the half corrupted stc files deem essential, likewise the repair instructions are unlikely to include psalms, holy hammer prayers etc just pull plates x, rewire y, reboot power

The Newman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.

Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.

Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there could be some other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all.

Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.

No, it doesn't. The Imperium still produces both terminator armour and land raiders, just in small quantities. If anti-grav was easy to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs, but they don't, their terminators and tracked vehicles are still going though. And as I've already pointed out, the Imperium still produces Fellblades in small quantities, which are tougher than terminators or land raiders, so would require the same armour. And what exactly makes a redemptor easier to make than a box dread?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
But isnt the IOM dogma on tech been limited to maintaing what exists becauses it 'perfect' and trying to update stuff is heresay against the daoc or whatever ancestors that were the peak of human know-wots

Cawls new toys might be more complicated but are most likely built to practical use rather than having lots of extra worthless bits that the half corrupted stc files deem essential, likewise the repair instructions are unlikely to include psalms, holy hammer prayers etc just pull plates x, rewire y, reboot power

It’s more that advancing tech beyond a certain point risks going too close to the whole men of iron scenario etc. Cawl isn’t exactly well liked among the Adeptus Mechanicus, he gets a lot of leeway because of his mandate from Guilliman.

The Grav tech in the Primaris tanks isn’t anywhere near as advanced as Land Speeder and jetbike tech, and certainly not as advanced as Eldar tech. It just about keeps the tank off the ground and crushes the ground as it moves along. It’s more akin to a hovercraft than a fast flying speeder etc.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.

Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.

Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there could be some other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all.

Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.

No, it doesn't. The Imperium still produces both terminator armour and land raiders, just in small quantities. If anti-grav was easy to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs, but they don't, their terminators and tracked vehicles are still going though. And as I've already pointed out, the Imperium still produces Fellblades in small quantities, which are tougher than terminators or land raiders, so would require the same armour. And what exactly makes a redemptor easier to make than a box dread?

That's demonstrably not true, Centurions manage better conventional toughness than Terminators (force field not withstanding) using the same material as an ordinary suit of power armor. They just use a lot of the stuff.

All the Imperium producing small numbers of Terminators and Land Raiders means is that at the minimum that they still have a handful of functioning manufactorum engines that can produce whatever the critical component/refined material/Mcguffin is. Whether they just don't know how that engine does what it does to build more of them, or the Mechanicus guild that controls those engines doesn't want to share the knowledge so badly that they won't even make black-box units to sell, or the raw materials required are on worlds the Imperium no longer controls is an open question.

And on the other hand servitor skulls and cherubs are all over the place so contra-grav tech can't be that hard to maintain. The reasoning behind all the tracked vehicles is that they're super-cheap to maintain and require a vanishingly low tech base to produce so even worlds on the edge of being feral can produce them with a little help.

What's demonstrably wrong? That the Fellblade's armour is constructed from the same advanced plating as terminators and land raiders? From Imperial Armour:

The tank's armour is constructed of an advanced metal-plas alloy matched only by the armour utilized on the God-Machines of the Legio Titanica.

So, it is. Nothing says that terminators, land raiders, or any of the other older vehicles are any harder to produce than primaris vehicles and equipment. You're just theorizing that primaris equipment is more easily produced. The mechanicus still builds Titans and starships as well. There's no "mcguffin" involved, these things are just hard to mass produce, and given the limited amount needed to supply the roughly 1,000,000 loyalist marines they aren't produced in the same quantities as equipment for the Imperial Guard. And nothing says that primaris equipment is easier to maintain either, as I've pointed out before: if anti-grav was easier to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs. They don't, but their land raiders still work.

We've wondered far enough off thread. Later.

^To be fair, the quote appears to say Fellblade matches Terminator armor in terms of performance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same armor tech.

When Cawl finally finds the old envelope he scrawled the notes for the final half of the last geneseed implant meant for them on and we get Alpha Primaris marines.

Or maybe when the last two mprimarchs are revealed to have been primaris primarchs and they'e been hidden for 10,000 yeas because an eldar told the emperor they would be needed when the galaxy split open, so they've been asleep for the history of the game while primaris primarch geneseed was being cultivated from their cells.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What's demonstrably wrong? That the Fellblade's armour is constructed from the same advanced plating as terminators and land raiders? From Imperial Armour:

The tank's armour is constructed of an advanced metal-plas alloy matched only by the armour utilized on the God-Machines of the Legio Titanica.

So, it is. Nothing says that terminators, land raiders, or any of the other older vehicles are any harder to produce than primaris vehicles and equipment. You're just theorizing that primaris equipment is more easily produced. The mechanicus still builds Titans and starships as well. There's no "mcguffin" involved, these things are just hard to mass produce, and given the limited amount needed to supply the roughly 1,000,000 loyalist marines they aren't produced in the same quantities as equipment for the Imperial Guard. And nothing says that primaris equipment is easier to maintain either, as I've pointed out before: if anti-grav was easier to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs. They don't, but their land raiders still work.

We've wondered far enough off thread. Later.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^To be fair, the quote appears to say Fellblade matches Terminator armor in terms of performance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same armor tech.

Basically what Insectum said.

You're right, we've wandered a long way off topic and I am speculating. It's an interesting side track, the question of how hard it would be for us with 21st century understanding of physics to even make appropriate real-world comparisons to fictional technology is the kind of debate I don't get to have often enough. And to be clear, that is the head-space I'm occupying a the moment. The question of whether a Land Raider ought to be a rare and precious relic when Repulsors are being handed out like candy is a lot less interesting than the question of how sure anyone can be of their answer.

True, it is an interesting topic. Maybe start a thread in Background about it? Get some other viewpoints and avoid ticking off the MODs?

I want more assault options ala Vanguard Veterans

 Lance845 wrote:
Ok, so we have 3 versions of a tank, a transport, melee, terminators, special weapons and stock troopers, scouts, bikes, dreads, a speeder (though one with wheels), a variety of characters, tech marine, chaplain, apothecary, librarian, standard bearer and some new characters to boot.

Some named characters have gotten the primaris treatment, others are going to be on the way (you all know it).

So besides a gunship, what else is left for primaris to have everything and old marines to get squatted?

They have more captains and such than you can shake a beatstick at.

I'd guess not all characters are going to cross the Rubicon Primaris. Some will be killed in story, and replaced. Vulkan not crossing is either teasing that (A son of the Perpetual Primarch not crossing?) or just an excuse to give Salamanders a second character But then, why a captain? Perhaps Vulkan is going to ascend to Chapter Master. Still something is going on.

Flyers, assault with jetpacks, and maybe a new dreadnought because two is not enough.

They have the Flyers. The Inceptors are- if you can twist your head around it - Land Speeders. They still need Aircraft - Stormtalon/Stormraven equivalents. The fighter/bomber and the bomber/transport role.

Do they have Command squads? But do they actually need that?

They do now. Bladeguard are the command squad. Medics/Apothecaries and champions etc were already split out of the old school command squads. Bladeguard + Bladeguard X's and Y's + Primaris Apothecary = Command Squad of old.

I don't think Old Marines getting squatted will depend on Primaris Marines achieving some benchmark on units/models available.

It'll more likely be a function of store logistics, old-marine sales numbers, convenience of timing (change from 9th to 10 edition? Or 10th to 11th?), etc..

It'll be both. They're almost certainly releasing the new kits based on the condition of the old molds with some weighting for fleshing out options.

What haven't Primaris units already duplicated from old Marines?

Whirlwind, Vindicator, jump assault troops, shooty veterans, Centurians, Thunderfire...

As near as I can tell most of the Rhino Hull variants can be found in the Impulsor. Cents and Aggressors are fairly overlapping. The Thunderfire has been in and out of the Marine lineup in some form or another so is likely not a top priority.

We've seen the speeder coming, you then have the drop whirlwind bunker thing, gun turret.

still "need" a drop pod, flyer, terminator equivalent (so Gravis with teleport capabilities), jump pack assault, hmm that's about it.

Drop Pod is one. On teleporting Termies, I'm hoping they continue the fluffy offscreen machinations they did with Jump Packs dropping from an unseen Thunderhawk. Just give any squad (The fluff doesn't limit teleportation to Terminators) the ability to buy a teleport homer/signal/widget that's used to teleport that squad.

No. Primaris. In. Chaos Space Marines.

Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.

Black Library has already all but "admitted" Cawl has already made Traitor Legion Primaris in secret and against Guilliman's wishes. That's going to be the hook to get them over into the Chaos Legions. Either the Thousand Sons marines call out to Magnus psychically, or Fabius Bile does some reverse engineering and/or a raid on Mars yadda yadda yadda.

From a Game standpoint the biggest hole in the Primaris line right now is mobility. They have next to no Deep Strike. No Aircraft Gun Platforms or Rapid Redeployment. They don't have a cheap 11-12 model ground transport. (10 squad + character) If they bring the rules back to encourage Rhino Rush there wouldn't be a Primaris Rhino to Rush. The Rhino itself is ironically the only Rhino Hull variant the Impulsor doesn't cross over at all. It starts as a Razorback, Bellicatus can do Whirlwind and Hunter, Ironhail skytalon does the Stalker. The Orbital Comms does a little of the Vindicator's job and will need a few rounds of rules update to fully gel - all the Orbital Strike mechanics need a boost/tweak for Fortifications, Superheavies and the like. If the giant space laser can hit a ratling sniper half the time, I would assume it can do much better against the 3 story fortress that takes up an entire city block.